Coronavirus.

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Hacky McAxe

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And many do not consider it a failure given Sweden’s average death rate since late July and early august has been roughly 3 deaths per day or less. They aren’t forced to stay indoors like people in Melbourne are and they also never shut as many institutions as we did here.

we Can go on debating this but I really only have a few points.

- Hard lockdowns do not work.


- As far as pandemics go, COVID is not very deadly and is generally not fatal for healthy people under the age of 60 or so.

- Masks are not as effective as they are made out to be. Multiple examples from multiple countries where they were mandated and following the mandate, infections continued to rise (I.e.) mask policies did not have an effect on infections.

- Sweden’s death numbers represent their failure to appropriately lock down their aged care. Countries who get this right, don’t get huge death rates. New York is the prime example of perhaps the worst government response around the world. Throwing sick people back into aged care where the virus effectively massacred tens of thousands.

- Young people don’t die from covid. Economies should be open with restrictions limited to aged care and medical facilities. Hospitals never ran out of capacity (like we were warned they would).
There's several problems here:

- the research does say masks are not effective as I have pointed out many times in the past. I have shared many studies showing their efficacy and you ignored them

- no matter how qualified a person is, their opinion does not outweigh research. This is one of the key tenants of the scientific method. Epidemiologists saying "you don't need masks" doesn't trump all the actual research

- long term lockdowns are a problem and they are not supported by science. The research says that lockdowns should be temporary (20 days) but that lockdowns may be needed

- The Swedish method is considered to be a failure. The current lead epidemiologist in Sweden even stated that their methods were a failure

- Hospitals in Italy, China and the UK were all overwhelmed. Sweden got lucky. They hit capacity but never went over it. It's strongly believed that the reason for this is the low population density

I'm not for Victoria's lockdowns. A temporary hard lockdown works. These long term lockdowns don't.
 

Dawgfather

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There's several problems here:

- the research does say masks are effective as I have pointed out many times in the past. I have shared many studies showing their efficacy and you ignored them

- no matter how qualified a person is, their opinion does not outweigh research. This is one of the key tenants of the scientific method. Epidemiologists saying "you don't need masks" doesn't trump all the actual research

- long term lockdowns are a problem and they are not supported by science. The research says that lockdowns should be temporary (20 days) but that lockdowns may be needed

- The Swedish method is considered to be a failure. The current lead epidemiologist in Sweden even stated that their methods were a failure

- Hospitals in Italy, China and the UK were all overwhelmed. Sweden got lucky. They hit capacity but never went over it. It's strongly believed that the reason for this is the low population density

I'm not for Victoria's lockdowns. A temporary hard lockdown works. These long term lockdowns don't.
We aren’t that far apart based on this.

only points I’ll add are that ‘some’ studies have indicated ‘some’ benefit from mask wearing. Others have not.

Sweden’s approach in general was a success. They never shut down the economy or schools and never mandated masks. What they did get wrong was the response around aged care which lead to the initial spike in deaths. However their last 2 months is testament to how effective their policies are. Next to no deaths each day.

One recent example of just how il-equiped governments are to deal with pandemics - Josh Frydenberg just last week said ‘the virus does not discriminate based on age’.

Can you imagine saying something so idiotic? If there is one thing the world has learned in the last 6 months it is indeed that COVID discriminates almost entirely on age.
 

Hacky McAxe

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We aren’t that far apart based on this.

only points I’ll add are that ‘some’ studies have indicated ‘some’ benefit from mask wearing. Others have not.

Sweden’s approach in general was a success. They never shut down the economy or schools and never mandated masks. What they did get wrong was the response around aged care which lead to the initial spike in deaths. However their last 2 months is testament to how effective their policies are. Next to no deaths each day.

One recent example of just how il-equiped governments are to deal with pandemics - Josh Frydenberg just last week said ‘the virus does not discriminate based on age’.

Can you imagine saying something so idiotic? If there is one thing the world has learned in the last 6 months it is indeed that COVID discriminates almost entirely on age.
As I pointed out earlier, Sweden is entering their second wave with around 700 new cases per day. Based on the lag effect they'll be up there in the death figures again soon.

Also, did Frydenberg say that?

Doesn't sound like him. I know Dandrews said it, but I couldn't find any evidence Frydenberg said it.
 

Hacky McAxe

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Nevermind. Found it. He said:

“I will say that we take COVID-19 very seriously. It’s a deadly virus. And it took life and it doesn’t differentiate between age groups. Does not discriminate between race, religion, or origin, and so we have primarily included health measures in our response, and these health measures worked with them – since we are working with states in that response. ”
 

Hacky McAxe

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Why are you assuming I didn’t read the CDC study? I had read both the research and some news articles.
The news article I posted above was simply the first article google returned when I searched. I have no idea whether that particular website is left or right or scientific or non scientific.
I'm sorry. I just have to bring this up again.

How could you read the study and come up with a completely different conclusion to the people who actually did the research?

Seriously? How?
 

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Gosh take a look at America - the entire country is red, meaning that the virus is everywhere there!

1602799787878.png
 

Hacky McAxe

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I don't like to celebrate death and I'm definitely not suggesting this sample of one is representative of the total. This is just a reminder than Covid doesn't just target the old and unhealthy. If you're young and healthy you are much, much more likely to survive but it's not gaurenteed

 

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Infection rate up in europe etc. What about the death rate? More importantly death rate to infection rate over the past 3 weeks compared to the same period in the first wave. Or is it still too early in the wave to tell?

Will be Intersting to see if the developed countries are more prepared for this second wave of infections. You would think deaths relative to infections in say a period of three weeks would be far better than they were in the first wave.
 
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Dogna88

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I don't like to celebrate death and I'm definitely not suggesting this sample of one is representative of the total. This is just a reminder than Covid doesn't just target the old and unhealthy. If you're young and healthy you are much, much more likely to survive but it's not gaurenteed

Why the heck would the hospital release him before he was deemed recovered?

It appears short comings of a healthcare system is a contributor in this case as well.
 

Dawgfather

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I don't like to celebrate death and I'm definitely not suggesting this sample of one is representative of the total. This is just a reminder than Covid doesn't just target the old and unhealthy. If you're young and healthy you are much, much more likely to survive but it's not gaurenteed

If I’m a betting man - this guy was likely on all sorts of Roids which we all know can create heart complications. Wouldn’t be surprised if this had something to do with his death.

I do agree it’s true a healthy 30 or 20 year old can die from COViD, but it’s very rare.
 

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Dawgfather

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Why the heck would the hospital release him before he was deemed recovered?

It appears short comings of a healthcare system is a contributor in this case as well.
An acquaintance of mine has his 94 year old grandma get covid in Sydney. The hospital sent her home where she subsequently infected her husband who then died from covid. It seems to be some sort of standard procedure to send ppl home if they aren’t showing bad symptoms.
 

Hacky McAxe

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Infection rate up in europe etc. What about the death rate? More importantly death rate to infection rate over the past 3 weeks compared to the same period in the first wave. Or is it still too early in the wave to tell?

Will be Intersting to see if the developed countries are more prepared for this second wave of infections. You would think deaths relative to infections in say a period of three weeks would be far better than they were in the first wave.
To early to tell. Death is usually around 3-4 weeks after infection.
 

Hacky McAxe

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Why the heck would the hospital release him before he was deemed recovered?

It appears short comings of a healthcare system is a contributor in this case as well.
A hospital can't legally keep him there if he refuses to stay.
 

Hacky McAxe

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If I’m a betting man - this guy was likely on all sorts of Roids which we all know can create heart complications. Wouldn’t be surprised if this had something to do with his death.

I do agree it’s true a healthy 30 or 20 year old can die from COViD, but it’s very rare.
Yeah, it's rare. But he's not the first one. There has been a fair few young and healthy die, but it's less than 1% of the deaths.
 

Dawgfather

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Yeah, it's rare. But he's not the first one. There has been a fair few young and healthy die, but it's less than 1% of the deaths.
Amazing. We both shares our thoughts, both considered the other side and both reached general agreement.

All with no insults.

where is captain and utility and the other mouth breathers.
 
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