Coronavirus.

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Dawgfather

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Just as there is no science to lockdowns. Cities that lock down did not eradicate the virus. They also did not have good social/economic outcomes. In short, take a look at New York right now. Take a look at Melbourne right now....Spain is having another surge in cases, so is the UK.

Hard lock downs were pointless and merely made people poorer and removed countless individual freedoms without benefit.
 

Dawgfather

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Further to the discussion around whether or not masks are effective or not. Here is more information which puts at question the idea that 'masks are an effective tool against COVID'.

The study which included 13 medical facilities tested a group of people who had tested positive for COVID in July. Among those who were infected, more than 70% indicated they had ALWAYS worn a mask for the 14 days prior and another 14% said they had OFTEN worn a mask in the 14 days prior.

New CDC Study Finds Majority of Those Infected with COVID-19 ‘Always’ Wore Masks

 

Hacky McAxe

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Further to the discussion around whether or not masks are effective or not. Here is more information which puts at question the idea that 'masks are an effective tool against COVID'.

The study which included 13 medical facilities tested a group of people who had tested positive for COVID in July. Among those who were infected, more than 70% indicated they had ALWAYS worn a mask for the 14 days prior and another 14% said they had OFTEN worn a mask in the 14 days prior.

New CDC Study Finds Majority of Those Infected with COVID-19 ‘Always’ Wore Masks

This is why people struggle to take you seriously. You rant about how you're only looking for the facts, the truth, you're open to new information. Then you post an article from a site that is famous for posting fake news.

This is also why I recommend people read the research and not the deliberately biased news report of the research.

The research found that there was increased infection due to people going to places where mask use is "difficult to maintain". Specifically, in restaurants while eating.
 

Dawgfather

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This is why people struggle to take you seriously. You rant about how you're only looking for the facts, the truth, you're open to new information. Then you post an article from a site that is famous for posting fake news.

This is also why I recommend people read the research and not the deliberately biased news report of the research.

The research found that there was increased infection due to people going to places where mask use is "difficult to maintain". Specifically, in restaurants while eating.
You might not like what I posted but all I did was post the results of the study. If people are interested they can read for themselves:


The overall point is that there is currently a narrative being sold which says masks are some sort of bullet proof vest against the virus are simply false. However there is science suggesting the opposite. Some jurisdictions around the world are asking people to wear masks whilst in restaurants and to reapply the mask ‘between bites’. Others require masks outside where the risk of infection is next to none and masks are therefore even more pointless.

Overall, There are mixed results related to studies looking at the effectiveness of masks. This particularly study holds particular damning conclusions for the efficacy of masks.

At best you could say that ‘it is possible’ that masks may have some benefit but this is certainly not confirmed. Governments should be more honest with their citizens and inform them that there are studies which show masks are ineffective and there are some which show they ‘may be’ effective.
 

Dawgfather

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I should also point out that my opinion is not isolated and many countries top health officials agree masks are either ineffective or there is too much conjecture over their effectiveness to make them a worthwhile policy.


“All these countries recommending face masks haven’t made their decisions based on new studies,” said Henning Bundgaard, chief physician at Denmark’s Rigshospitale, according to Bloomberg News. (Denmark has since updated its guidelines to encourage, but not require, the use of masks on public transit where social distancing may not be possible.)

From a medical point of view, there is no evidence of a medical effect of wearing face masks, so we decided not to impose a national obligation," said Medical Care Minister Tamara van Ark.
 

Dawgfather

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This is why people struggle to take you seriously. You rant about how you're only looking for the facts, the truth, you're open to new information. Then you post an article from a site that is famous for posting fake news.

This is also why I recommend people read the research and not the deliberately biased news report of the research.

The research found that there was increased infection due to people going to places where mask use is "difficult to maintain". Specifically, in restaurants while eating.
Btw, didn’t I hear you’re a scientist? For a scientist, you sure have a political and seemingly authoritarian view over which ‘science’ is allowed to be spoken about and which isn’t.

I would have thought you’d have more of a natural curiosity towards fact regardless of what those facts may do to your political spectrum.
 

Hacky McAxe

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You might not like what I posted but all I did was post the results of the study. If people are interested they can read for themselves:


The overall point is that there is currently a narrative being sold which says masks are some sort of bullet proof vest against the virus are simply false. However there is science suggesting the opposite. Some jurisdictions around the world are asking people to wear masks whilst in restaurants and to reapply the mask ‘between bites’. Others require masks outside where the risk of infection is next to none and masks are therefore even more pointless.

Overall, There are mixed results related to studies looking at the effectiveness of masks. This particularly study holds particular damning conclusions for the efficacy of masks.

At best you could say that ‘it is possible’ that masks may have some benefit but this is certainly not confirmed. Governments should be more honest with their citizens and inform them that there are studies which show masks are ineffective and there are some which show they ‘may be’ effective.
Bugger me. I know you're not that thick.

"You might not like what I posted but all I did was post the results of the study"

No you didn't. You posted a fake news article which cherry picked data to come to their own conclusion.

"The overall point is that there is currently a narrative being sold which says masks are some sort of bullet proof vest against the virus are simply false"

No. That's not the overall narrative. The overall narrative is that multiple approaches are needed to combat the virus including Masks, social distancing, washing hands, and when all else fails, lockdowns.

"Overall, There are mixed results related to studies looking at the effectiveness of masks. This particularly study holds particular damning conclusions for the efficacy of masks"

No. The study does not say anything remotely like that. Did you actually read the study?
 

Hacky McAxe

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I should also point out that my opinion is not isolated and many countries top health officials agree masks are either ineffective or there is too much conjecture over their effectiveness to make them a worthwhile policy.


“All these countries recommending face masks haven’t made their decisions based on new studies,” said Henning Bundgaard, chief physician at Denmark’s Rigshospitale, according to Bloomberg News. (Denmark has since updated its guidelines to encourage, but not require, the use of masks on public transit where social distancing may not be possible.)

From a medical point of view, there is no evidence of a medical effect of wearing face masks, so we decided not to impose a national obligation," said Medical Care Minister Tamara van Ark.
Literally another right wing source that is famous for posting fake news, just like the other one.

I'm not even going to bother fact checking it until you post it from a valid source.
 

Dawgfather

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Literally another right wing source that is famous for posting fake news, just like the other one.

I'm not even going to bother fact checking it until you post it from a valid source.
You don’t like the fact multiple European countries are doing extraordinarily well with the virus via policies that don’t include mandatory mask wearing?

while multiple western nations have mandated masks but are seeing claiming infection and death rates?
 

Hacky McAxe

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Btw, didn’t I hear you’re a scientist? For a scientist, you sure have a political and seemingly authoritarian view over which ‘science’ is allowed to be spoken about and which isn’t.

I would have thought you’d have more of a natural curiosity towards fact regardless of what those facts may do to your political spectrum.
I have a very large curiosity. Thats why I spend so much time reading scientific research. And I mean actually reading scientific research. Not reading a complete misinterpretation posted by a think tank or fake news site.

I cannot stress this enough. Do not read the think tank analysis. Do not read the fake news article...

Read. The. Research.
 

Dawgfather

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Literally another right wing source that is famous for posting fake news, just like the other one.

I'm not even going to bother fact checking it until you post it from a valid source.
The article also has direct quotes from health officials. I suppose those quotes are somehow fraudulent as well?
 

Dawgfather

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I have a very large curiosity. Thats why I spend so much time reading scientific research. And I mean actually reading scientific research. Not reading a complete misinterpretation posted by a think tank or fake news site.

I cannot stress this enough. Do not read the think tank analysis. Do not read the fake news article...

Read. The. Research.
Why are you assuming I didn’t read the CDC study? I had read both the research and some news articles.
The news article I posted above was simply the first article google returned when I searched. I have no idea whether that particular website is left or right or scientific or non scientific.
 

Hacky McAxe

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You don’t like the fact multiple European countries are doing extraordinarily well with the virus via policies that don’t include mandatory mask wearing?

while multiple western nations have mandated masks but are seeing claiming infection and death rates?
I shouldn't bother doing this but if you insist in being completely unscientific, regardless if it's through deliberate or non-deliberate ignorance...

The article you posted is from August. Here's an example of the problem with it. It raves about Denmark not insisting on masks, but what is Denmark's current policy?


Denmark steps up coronavirus face mask recommendations

They rave about Sweden's approach but the scientific community and many members of the Swedish scientific community consider it a failure considering the really high death toll (much higher than the surrounding countries who did force face mask use)

 

Hacky McAxe

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BTW, if anyone is curious. Sweden had just shy of 6,000 total deaths. Translated to Australia's population, that's around 12,000 deaths.

But it's fine 'cause herd immunity worked right?

Unfortunately not. Sweden are currently entering their 2nd wave with around 700 new infections per day and they are entering full panic mode.
 

Dawgfather

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I shouldn't bother doing this but if you insist in being completely unscientific, regardless if it's through deliberate or non-deliberate ignorance...

The article you posted is from August. Here's an example of the problem with it. It raves about Denmark not insisting on masks, but what is Denmark's current policy?


Denmark steps up coronavirus face mask recommendations

They rave about Sweden's approach but the scientific community and many members of the Swedish scientific community consider it a failure considering the really high death toll (much higher than the surrounding countries who did force face mask use)

And many do not consider it a failure given Sweden’s average death rate since late July and early august has been roughly 3 deaths per day or less. They aren’t forced to stay indoors like people in Melbourne are and they also never shut as many institutions as we did here.

we Can go on debating this but I really only have a few points.

- Hard lockdowns do not work.


- As far as pandemics go, COVID is not very deadly and is generally not fatal for healthy people under the age of 60 or so.

- Masks are not as effective as they are made out to be. Multiple examples from multiple countries where they were mandated and following the mandate, infections continued to rise (I.e.) mask policies did not have an effect on infections.

- Sweden’s death numbers represent their failure to appropriately lock down their aged care. Countries who get this right, don’t get huge death rates. New York is the prime example of perhaps the worst government response around the world. Throwing sick people back into aged care where the virus effectively massacred tens of thousands.

- Young people don’t die from covid. Economies should be open with restrictions limited to aged care and medical facilities. Hospitals never ran out of capacity (like we were warned they would).
 

Dogna88

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I think its fair to say. The govt needs to be flexible with restrictions/regulations relating to covid.

No point having rules if no one follows them or has lost faith the people making the rules.

The main strategies against this virus are, individual responsibility (ie if your sick, stay home), hygine (sanitise) and social distance (where appropriate).

Face masks help but arnt the be all end all.

Eg. I would never wear a mask at work unless forced. Whats the point. I touch an elevator button 100s of other people have already touched, i open doors 100s have already opened. I sit in a room with upto 70 other people. I shit on a toilet that numerous other men have already sat on during the day. Open taps, touch pens, printers, computers, equipment.... (you get my point). A mask isnt going to stop me from getting the virus at work. i need to have some responsibility and practice proper hygine and social distance where possible.

But fuk, if wearing a mask in public makes people happy, and feel safer being out in public, getting the economy going. Ill wear one. Not that big of a deal to have some understanding of others and put one on.
 

Dawgfather

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I think its fair to say. The govt needs to be flexible with restrictions/regulations relating to covid.

No point having rules if no one follows them or has lost faith the people making the rules.

The main strategies against this virus are, individual responsibility (ie if your sick, stay home), hygine (sanitise) and social distance (where appropriate).

Face masks help but arnt the be all end all.

Eg. I would never wear a mask at work unless forced. Whats the point. I touch an elevator button 100s of other people have already touched, i open doors 100s have already opened. I sit in a room with upto 70 other people. I shit on a toilet that numerous other men have already sat on during the day. Open taps, touch pens, printers, computers, equipment.... (you get my point). A mask isnt going to stop me from getting the virus at work. i need to have some responsibility and practice proper hygine and social distance where possible.

But fuk, if wearing a mask in public makes people happy, and feel safer being out in public, getting the economy going. Ill wear one. Not that big of a deal to have some understanding of others and put one on.
Agree with most of that except the idea that people should be forced to wear masks in public to ‘help other people feel better about themselves’
 

Lov_Dog

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swiss.cheese.jpg


Approaches/interventions are additive or multiplicative; science/medicine/humans are not perfect and are oft humbled by discoveries, we take in observations/experiences and course-correct. That same occurs in nature; it is referred to as feedback loops. Blood glucose regulation is a great examples and like most other processes in the human body is perpetually monitored and controlled through a negative feedback loop.


cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6936a5-H.pdf

"The findings in this report are subject to at least five limitations. First, the sample included 314 symptomatic patients who actively sought testing during July 1–29, 2020 at 11 health care facilities. Symptomatic adults with negative SARS-CoV-2 test results might have been infected with other respiratory viruses and had similar exposures to persons with cases of such illnesses. Persons who did not respond, or refused to participate, could be systematically different from those who were interviewed for this investigation. Efforts to age- and sex-match participating case-patients and control-participants were not maintained because of participants not meeting the eligibility criteria, refusing to participate, or not responding, and this was accounted for in the analytic approach. Second, unmeasured confounding is possible, such that reported behaviors might represent factors, including concurrently participating in activities where possible exposures could have taken place, that were not included in the analysis or measured in the survey. Of note, the question assessing dining at a restaurant did not distinguish between indoor and outdoor options. In addition, the question about going to a bar or coffee shop did not distinguish between the venues or service delivery methods, which might represent different exposures. Third, adults in the study were from one of 11 participating health care facilities and might not be representative of the United States population. Fourth, participants were aware of their SARS-CoV-2 test results, which could have influenced their responses to questions about community exposures and close contacts. Finally, case or control status might be subject to misclassification because of imperfect sensitivity or specificity of PCR-based testing (9,10)"

[batch effects, confounding, sample size, representative cohort, blinded]
and "CDC personnel administered structured interviews in English or five other languages†"
†Other languages included Spanish, Arabic, Vietnamese, Portuguese, and Russian.
QED or not.


ZERO community cases here in Singapore yesterday. Mask-wearing mandated.
 
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