The 9th Immortal

[Freakzilla]

Quiet similar i'd say.. Both were successful generals who could carry teams on their own but the only thing Lockyer was better at in my eyes was the fact he played multiple positions as mastered them. Off the field hands down Fitler walks all over Lockyer.

Fittler played 5/8, lock and centre at club, Origin and International level. Fittler was a way better defender. Fittler played in 6 GF's with Lockyer only in 3.5.

 

[jasonsmith11]

no way lockyer gets it unless its just about the money from channel nine all he did was that decoy out nthe back pass that is so boring it should be outlawed from the game

 

[jasonsmith11]

what about droppa grogan to many memories to mention

 

[Oatley Dog]

You really think Slater changed the game that much?

Yes I do. You have to remember he has been around for 14 years now. Go back to last century and look at the way FBs played then compared with now. He changed the relationship between halves and FB. There have been lots of quick FBs and lots of FBs that could find a gap but there haven't been any before him that could do the things offensively and defensively that he can. Even old Mrs Churchill reckons he is the best she's seen. He is 34 now, has competition from all sides in the position and would still be the first one picked for the Roos if he was fit and available. That's not favouritism that's recognition that even as an old bloke he is still way ahead of everyone else. I mean with SOO and Roos added in he has scored over 220 tries!! There's a lot of daylight to second place.....

 

[KLil]

Yes I do. You have to remember he has been around for 14 years now. Go back to last century and look at the way FBs played then compared with now. He changed the relationship between halves and FB. There have been lots of quick FBs and lots of FBs that could find a gap but there haven't been any before him that could do the things offensively and defensively that he can. Even old Mrs Churchill reckons he is the best she's seen. He is 34 now, has competition from all sides in the position and would still be the first one picked for the Roos if he was fit and available. That's not favouritism that's recognition that even as an old bloke he is still way ahead of everyone else. I mean with SOO and Roos added in he has scored over 220 tries!! There's a lot of daylight to second place.....

I wont argue with you too much Oats as I know you have watched more footy than me but I cant help but imagine many players over the past have also reinvented positions and have pretty good records. His the best FB by far and maybe he does deserve his status as an immortal maybe not... We shall see.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Umm - its called rugby league history. It's a fact. Read Johnny Raper's book for one.

Fair enough.
In that case, ill make a new vote for Bryce Gibbs.
How you like dem apples?

 

[KLil]

Fittler played 5/8, lock and centre at club, Origin and International level. Fittler was a way better defender. Fittler played in 6 GF's with Lockyer only in 3.5.

I rate Fitler.. Probably was the Cam Smith of his era. Cant deny some high achievements within the rugby league community.

 

[Kaz]

I think they will also name the 10th immortal.

Mal Meninga & Darren Lockyer.

 

[speedy2460]

Theres no need to discuss it. Norm Provan should get it.

 

[rainman]

Theres no need to discuss it. Norm Provan should get it.

What's discount furniture got to do with this

 

[speedy2460]

What's discount furniture got to do with this

Maybe nothing. But he did play a lot for Australia and won ten Grand Finals in a row. Some as captain Coach.

 

[rainman]

Maybe nothing. But he did play a lot for Australia and won ten Grand Finals in a row. Some as captain Coach.

 

[Oatley Dog]

View attachment 5337

You're thinking of John Cootes not Norm. He was in electronics.

 

[alchemist]

the moment Andrew Johns was installed as the 8th immortal, all previous players became ineligible IMO... it makes no sense to me to look to proclaim Provan or Messenger or Coote etc. as an immortal now when they were snubbed when the initial 4 were proclaimed in 1981, when Wally and Langlands were proclaimed in 1999, when Beetson was proclaimed in 2003 and when Johns was installed in 2012... they would logically have to be seen as lesser immortals

Meninga was a great player and had a great long career... but he was/is not an immortal IMO as he was not seen during his career as THE class centre/player of his generation and proof of this is that during the 80's with those great Test teams, Meninga did not start --> Brett Kenny and Gene Miles were the starting centres

for example, as great as Sterling was, it was questioned at the time whether Mortimer was better than him... Langer and Stuart vied for the best halfback tag in the early 90's... Fittler and Daley interchanged between centre, five-eighth and lock in rep teams etc.

i believe Cameron Smith and Johnathan Thurston should be proclaimed immortals down the track but not yet obviously... Lockyer is probably the most likely candidate for this upcoming pronouncement

 

[Oatley Dog]

the moment Andrew Johns was installed as the 8th immortal, all previous players became ineligible IMO... it makes no sense to me to look to proclaim Provan or Messenger or Coote etc. as an immortal now when they were snubbed when the initial 4 were proclaimed in 1981, when Wally and Langlands were proclaimed in 1999, when Beetson was proclaimed in 2003 and when Johns was installed in 2012... they would logically have to be seen as lesser immortals

Meninga was a great player and had a great long career... but he was/is not an immortal IMO as he was not seen during his career as THE class centre/player of his generation and proof of this is that during the 80's with those great Test teams, Meninga did not start --> Brett Kenny and Gene Miles were the starting centres

for example, as great as Sterling was, it was questioned at the time whether Mortimer was better than him... Langer and Stuart vied for the best halfback tag in the early 90's... Fittler and Daley interchanged between centre, five-eighth and lock in rep teams etc.

i believe Cameron Smith and Johnathan Thurston should be proclaimed immortals down the track but not yet obviously... Lockyer is probably the most likely candidate for this upcoming pronouncement

You need to understand the history of the concept for it to make sense. RLW were offering a run of port and got a committee together to put some faces on the bottle to sell it. One of the rules they put in the decision making process was that the judges had to have seen them play, so that automatically disqualified anyone who played before 1940 roughly. So the concept went forward (without the port as the the concept itself grew legs) and a succession of people have been elevated, using the same rules as the first group.

Last year the NRL bought the concept from RLW when they went broke and are now putting in place a set of rules that hopefully will more accurately reflect the contribution of the nominees on and off the field. At the same time the "not going back" rule has been scrubbed. For mine Dally Messenger was the greatest league player of all time and basically the reason why we even have a rugby league comp in the modern day. He should have been the first picked, but back then selling port was more important.....and the 4 immortals were household names.

 

[dogluva]

You need to understand the history of the concept for it to make sense. RLW were offering a run of port and got a committee together to put some faces on the bottle to sell it. One of the rules they put in the decision making process was that the judges had to have seen them play, so that automatically disqualified anyone who played before 1940 roughly. So the concept went forward (without the port as the the concept itself grew legs) and a succession of people have been elevated, using the same rules as the first group.

Last year the NRL bought the concept from RLW when they went broke and are now putting in place a set of rules that hopefully will more accurately reflect the contribution of the nominees on and off the field. At the same time the "not going back" rule has been scrubbed. For mine Dally Messenger was the greatest league player of all time and basically the reason why we even have a rugby league comp in the modern day. He should have been the first picked, but back then selling port was more important.....and the 4 immortals were household names.

Fantastic post Oatley Dog.

What other code of footy/basketball etc. disregards the first fifty or so years of its history? I remember hearing that reason why some of the blokes from the early days have not been made immortals is that those experts selecting them never saw them play. Dally Messenger absolute legend and played top footy both here and in England. What about Brian Bevan ( hall of fame Aus and UK) Dave Brown? I never watched them play live but have seen some vision and read of their contribution to the game. Are they any less deserving?


A lot of the pioneers of the game deserve some recognition too. My goodness all that for a few bottles of port?

 

[Oatley Dog]

Fantastic post Oatley Dog.

What other code of footy/basketball etc. disregards the first fifty or so years of its history? I remember hearing that reason why some of the blokes from the early days have not been made immortals is that those experts selecting them never saw them play. Dally Messenger absolute legend and played top footy both here and in England. What about Brian Bevan ( hall of fame Aus and UK) Dave Brown? I never watched them play live but have seen some vision and read of their contribution to the game. Are they any less deserving?


A lot of the pioneers of the game deserve some recognition too. My goodness all that for a few bottles of port?

Different times I guess and probably didn't think the concept would take off like it did. Still the game has ownership of it again now and while you might argue that one or two of the current immortals did things off the field that should have excluded them, on the field they were the best of the best so no real damage done. Just have to hope that some of those old greats at least get considered.

 

[FaceBreaker]

Immortals has gone pc.

I reckon they will name Dally M and Meninga.

I mean they can’t name 2 dead players, who is going to come up on stage and get the award?

 

[alchemist]

You need to understand the history of the concept for it to make sense. RLW were offering a run of port and got a committee together to put some faces on the bottle to sell it. One of the rules they put in the decision making process was that the judges had to have seen them play, so that automatically disqualified anyone who played before 1940 roughly. So the concept went forward (without the port as the the concept itself grew legs) and a succession of people have been elevated, using the same rules as the first group.

Last year the NRL bought the concept from RLW when they went broke and are now putting in place a set of rules that hopefully will more accurately reflect the contribution of the nominees on and off the field. At the same time the "not going back" rule has been scrubbed. For mine Dally Messenger was the greatest league player of all time and basically the reason why we even have a rugby league comp in the modern day. He should have been the first picked, but back then selling port was more important.....and the 4 immortals were household names.

i understand the origins of the "immortal" concept in league with it being a RLW concept before it being bought by the game... i also knew that pre-WWII players were not included as the judges did not have an opportunity to watch them play... and i don't really have an issue with that policy for two reasons

firstly, how to properly judge players from the formative stages of the game and when the rules were so different and there is no or very little film of such exploits... that is not to say that i am not appreciative of what the likes of Messenger, Brian Bevan, Dave Brown, Horder etc. achieved, but it is too difficult a task IMO to elevate and distinguish between these players without actual people that watched them and/or film of them... and i do not limit this to Rugby League... for example, i am a big football fan and i am always interested in reading about the likes of Sindelar, Meazza, Leonidas etc. but i do not believe they can be judged in the same manner that post-WWII players like Di Stefano, Puskas, Kubala, Pele, Cruyff, Maradona etc. can

secondly, it skews the award if it is done one way for 35+ years and then it fundamentally changes with a change of ownership

it is what the Hall of Fame is for which has been owned by the game from the outset

 

[The 2nd Spitter]

But the Dragons cheated to win those. They should have been stripped when Frank Facer revealed all the players were registered as living at his house so they could qualify to play for St.George. There was a residency rule then.

And you people want to nag on poor Uncle Nick and City Ford TPAs!