Religious Discussion Thread

[Memberberries]

Little Jewish homosexual gimp. 100% he is Anal Schwabs play toy.

Those 2 pole smokers are Dr Evil and Mini Me.

so he is a real life Waylon Smithers?

 

[The DoggFather]

so he is a real life Waylon Smithers?

Yeah but more evil

 

[Memberberries]

Yeah but more evil

yes I’ve heard this arrogant creep speaks.
He is a sick twisted evil psychopath.
People who think this guy is a genius are just as twisted!

Roseanne Barr went on the record just recently and said something controversial about her own tribe!
I guess she is just butthurt they sold her out and cancelled her?

I don’t know why she is surprised?

 

[The DoggFather]

yes I’ve heard this arrogant creep speaks.
He is a sick twisted evil psychopath.
People who think this guy is a genius are just as twisted!

Roseanne Barr went on the record just recently and said something controversial about her own tribe!
I guess she is just butthurt they sold her out and cancelled her?

I don’t know why she is surprised?

I'm surprised the tribe hasn't tried to off the little gimp

 

[Memberberries]

I'm surprised the tribe hasn't tried to off the little gimp

she is a fat old woman.
A heart attack can easily be arranged!

 

[Dogna88]

Ok. I'm not here to cause argument. I wont even respond to the replies to cause any argument or heated debates.

But @ASSASSIN or @dogwhisper (not kelp lol) give me a contemporary Christian view of Romans and of course Romans 9, which i never have really looked at until recently. Dogwhisper, own words pleqse, no copy paste, i have already looked at the standard "bible.org" and "athiest.org" writings on it.

Just want a contemporary Aussie Christians view.

Again. Not here to start arguments. I wont reply. Just need to feed my curiosity

 

[Caveman]

Ok. I'm not here to cause argument. I wont even respond to the replies to cause any argument or heated debates.

But @ASSASSIN or @dogwhisper (not kelp lol) give me a contemporary Christian view of Romans and of course Romans 9, which i never have really looked at until recently. Dogwhisper, own words pleqse, no copy paste, i have already looked at the standard "bible.org" and "athiest.org" writings on it.

Just want a contemporary Aussie Christians view.

Again. Not here to start arguments. I wont reply. Just need to feed my curiosity

Guessing you're more specifically Inquiring about predestination? Romans 9 covers quite a bit.

 

[Dogna88]

Guessing you're more specifically Inquiring about predestination? Romans 9 covers quite a bit.

Yes correct. Esp the example of Jacob and Esau. To me this negates the notion of free will. God makes people the way he wants them to. That everything depends on Gods mercy and not on what people want/do. He chooses people based on his will. And Paul points out the issue, the answer is "Who are we to question God"


"For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

 

[The DoggFather]

Yes correct. Esp the example of Jacob and Esau. To me this negates the notion of free will. God makes people the way he wants them to. That everything depends on Gods mercy and not on what people want/do. He chooses people based on his will. And Paul points out the issue, the answer is "Who are we to question God"


"For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

IMO, this can be as simple as God will have mercy and compassion to those who believe and accept His mercy and compassion.

Predestination the way I see it is that God predetermined that all of us have the ability to believe and follow Christ (as we were created in His image, but ultimately it's still up to us.

This is just off the top of my head bro. Give me time to re-read it and trt to give you a contemporary, earthly answer.

PS I'm not going to argue or debate you bro, I know you don't believe, but I see God working through you asking this question to make true believers re-read and contemplate the Word of God, so I'm thankful more than anything.

PPS I will get back to you on this, not using it as a cop out.

 

[The DoggFather]

What I struggle with is by saying God is all knowing negates free will. Just because He knows what we will do doesn't mean He makes it happen.

I see God as a Father, us mere humans use predetermination with our children, from something simple knowing that our kids can't do something yet but we still let them attempt it and fail so they learn from it to preparing them with education and help for them to get a good job. We can direct and help them, but ultimately it's up to our kids.

Will there be people that miss out on heaven? Sure, plenty of them sadly. But using "predetermination" is a cop out. Only thing predetermined is that we were created in His image and we have the ability to believe and follow Christ. The rest is up to us and our choices.

I'll expand more later as I'm not feeling the best ATM.

 

[Caveman]

Yes correct. Esp the example of Jacob and Esau. To me this negates the notion of free will. God makes people the way he wants them to. That everything depends on Gods mercy and not on what people want/do. He chooses people based on his will. And Paul points out the issue, the answer is "Who are we to question God"


"For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Yes, totally agree with the total sovereign will of God - either man has free will and autonomy putting the power of man's will out side of Gods sovereignty and power, hence making man the supreme dictator of eternity and reducing Gods power to chance - or God in His supreme power chooses whom He will save for His Glory.

The simple fact of the bible is "all have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God".

Our purpose as defined in the bible is to glorify God and enjoy him forever, however we are all corrupted, "no one seeks for God" no one seeks to glorify God, our very nature is to be at war against Him, we go through life ignoring Him, criticising Him, mocking Him - His will is the enemy of our will, we despise Him completely and will do for all eternity - Unless we are graciously chosen by Him to see and understand His goodness - to see and understand that though we being His creation who constantly are at war with Him, He still sent His son down into creation to be the ultimate sacrifice for our own hated to Him - the greatest act of love, to die on a cross for our sin at the hands of those he has come to save, that those who may trust in Him, may see the glory of His love for all eternity.

 

[Caveman]

What I struggle with is by saying God is all knowing negates free will. Just because He knows what we will do doesn't mean He makes it happen.

I see God as a Father, us mere humans use predetermination with our children, from something simple knowing that our kids can't do something yet but we still let them attempt it and fail so they learn from it to preparing them with education and help for them to get a good job. We can direct and help them, but ultimately it's up to our kids.

Will there be people that miss out on heaven? Sure, plenty of them sadly. But using "predetermination" is a cop out. Only thing predetermined is that we were created in His image and we have the ability to believe and follow Christ. The rest is up to us and our choices.

I'll expand more later as I'm not feeling the best ATM.

Predestination is very difficult to marry up with justice and judgement, it always has been and probably will be until we see Him face to face.

However I think it is hard to marry up because we think so highly of man (man deserves this and man deserves that) and think so lowly of God (the creator can't do that to His creation).

 

[Caveman]

Yes correct. Esp the example of Jacob and Esau. To me this negates the notion of free will. God makes people the way he wants them to. That everything depends on Gods mercy and not on what people want/do. He chooses people based on his will. And Paul points out the issue, the answer is "Who are we to question God"


"For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Also I think the predisposition of man is that we are basically good, though that may be somewhat true in terms of how we treat man, that is not the case of how we treat God.

We tend to think that that everyone deserves heaven and only the really bad deserves the eternal judgement - yet the bible says we all deserve judment for our defiance against God .. we are not basically good, we are completely and utterly against God and will be post judgement.

There is no desire of man to be in relationship with God here on earth as they despise His ways, so why would they want to spend eternity with Him?

No one wants to go to the heaven of the Bible. No one wants to submit to the authority of God.

We end up where we long to go, far away from Gods protective and and fulfilling blessing, and we will despise Him for all eternity as that is all we can do without His Goodness in Grace ruling our lives.

 

[Dogna88]

What I struggle with is by saying God is all knowing negates free will. Just because He knows what we will do doesn't mean He makes it happen.

I see God as a Father, us mere humans use predetermination with our children, from something simple knowing that our kids can't do something yet but we still let them attempt it and fail so they learn from it to preparing them with education and help for them to get a good job. We can direct and help them, but ultimately it's up to our kids.

Will there be people that miss out on heaven? Sure, plenty of them sadly. But using "predetermination" is a cop out. Only thing predetermined is that we were created in His image and we have the ability to believe and follow Christ. The rest is up to us and our choices.

I'll expand more later as I'm not feeling the best ATM.

Reply when you're better brother. Its nothing urgent

 

[The DoggFather]

Reply when you're better brother. Its nothing urgent

Thanks bro. Appreciate the civil discussion.

 

[Dogna88]

Also I think the predisposition of man is that we are basically good, though that may be somewhat true in terms of how we treat man, that is not the case of how we treat God.

We tend to think that that everyone deserves heaven and only the really bad deserves the eternal judgement - yet the bible says we all deserve judment for our defiance against God .. we are not basically good, we are completely and utterly against God and will be post judgement.

There is no desire of man to be in relationship with God here on earth as they despise His ways, so why would they want to spend eternity with Him?

No one wants to go to the heaven of the Bible. No one wants to submit to the authority of God.

We end up where we long to go, far away from Gods protective and and fulfilling blessing, and we will despise Him for all eternity as that is all we can do without His Goodness in Grace ruling our lives.

Thanks for the honest response. My issue is that through Paul, God clearly states he has created some (not all) predestined for destruction. This is evident in the twin example.

To me. And i understand Assassins point. I just dont see how a human predestined for destruction by an all powerful God, can change that path with that change also be predestined.

 

[Caveman]

Reply when you're better brother. Its nothing urgent

I'm guessing this intrigue came about with the discussion you had earlier on about the culpability of the programed robots?

 

[Caveman]

Thanks for the honest response. My issue is that through Paul, God clearly states he has created some (not all) predestined for destruction

Yeh bro, it's a very difficult concept to comprehend even for Christians, though I think verse 22(?) gives a good explanation as to why God choose some for destruction - or possibly more to the point, why he choose to save some from destruction.

 

[Caveman]

The paradox rests in the fact that we can't see that God is good unless he reveals to us the goodness of God through The Holy Spirit.

And that is solely at His discretion.

Once we see the goodness of God we see our sinful state -the overwhelming sinful nature of man against the mirror of what is actually good as revealed in Gods character.

Until then we simply think God is a terrible being who does not serve our agenda.

And if God being the standard of good is not seen as good in our eyes, how can we ever see the depth of our sin against Him? As we do not know what is good as defined by God because we define Him as 'not good'.

 

[Dogna88]

The paradox rests in the fact that we can't see that God is good unless he reveals to us the goodness of God through The Holy Spirit.

And that is solely at His discretion.

Once we see the goodness of God we see our sinful state -the overwhelming sinful nature of man against the mirror of what is actually good as revealed in Gods character.

Until then we simply think God is a terrible being who does not serve our agenda.

And if God being the standard of good is not seen as good in our eyes, how can we ever see the depth of our sin against Him? As we do not know what is good as defined by God because we define Him as 'not good'.

Wouldn't that mean God either doesn't want me to see his goodness... or he doesn't want me to see his goodness yet?

Either way, i shouldn't be judged for something i dont have control over.

And for the sake of argument. I am granting that God exisits. The existence of God is another debate. Just discussing his morality and worship worthiness.

I guess this is where faith really has apart in Religion. Faith in a good God v one of questionable moral standards.

The way i see it. I don't believe in a God because my level of required evidence is fairly high. I have not been presented with evidence to suggest a God exists. More importantly my moral compass does not need a God. I live my life, treat people and conduct my daily business as I would want anyone to treat my children. If I die, and i end up being at the gates of a Christian heaven, if i get refused on the basis i didnt believe whilst on earth (when God knew what would make me believe and the power to make me believe).... they wouldn't have to refuse me entry. I'd leave to whatever the alternative is.