Religious Discussion Thread

[Hacky McAxe]

The paradox rests in the fact that we can't see that God is good unless he reveals to us the goodness of God through The Holy Spirit.

And that is solely at His discretion.

Once we see the goodness of God we see our sinful state -the overwhelming sinful nature of man against the mirror of what is actually good as revealed in Gods character.

Until then we simply think God is a terrible being who does not serve our agenda.

And if God being the standard of good is not seen as good in our eyes, how can we ever see the depth of our sin against Him? As we do not know what is good as defined by God because we define Him as 'not good'.

I always find it an interesting idea that God is the embodiment of all that is good or true. It drives interesting philosophical discussion. Like the questions of, "is murder still a sin when it's carried out by God?" and "can God lie?"

 

[Dogna88]

I always find it an interesting idea that God is the embodiment of all that is good or true. It drives interesting philosophical discussion. Like the questions of, "is murder still a sin when it's carried out by God?" and "can God lie?"

Or can the bulldogs not suck?

 

[Caveman]

Wouldn't that mean God either doesn't want me to see his goodness... or he doesn't want me to see his goodness yet?

Either way, i shouldn't be judged for something i dont have control over.

And for the sake of argument. I am granting that God exisits. The existence of God is another debate. Just discussing his morality and worship worthiness.

I guess this is where faith really has apart in Religion. Faith in a good God v one of questionable moral standards.

The way i see it. I don't believe in a God because my level of required evidence is fairly high. I have not been presented with evidence to suggest a God exists. More importantly my moral compass does not need a God. I live my life, treat people and conduct my daily business as I would want anyone to treat my children. If I die, and i end up being at the gates of a Christian heaven, if i get refused on the basis i didnt believe whilst on earth (when God knew what would make me believe and the power to make me believe).... they wouldn't have to refuse me entry. I'd leave to whatever the alternative is.

Wouldn't that mean God either doesn't want me to see his goodness... or he doesn't want me to see his goodness yet?

Yes that is correct, God chooses who He wants to save for His purpose and glory.

His sovereignty does not negate that we as intelligent beings created in His image for His purpose live in rebellion against Him.

Our free will is in defiance of Him, and only His irresistible Grace based on His Sovereign Will can save us from such rebellion.

I get that only for the sake of this discussion your granting the existence of God - and its appreciated as it makes for very thought provoking conversation.

Am I right in saying that your concern is that God has no right to punish humanity for rebelling against Him because He alone has the power to stop that rebellion? Perhaps putting the emphasis of guilt on Him?

 

[Caveman]

I always find it an interesting idea that God is the embodiment of all that is good or true. It drives interesting philosophical discussion. Like the questions of, "is murder still a sin when it's carried out by God?" and "can God lie?"

Agreed you could ponder on such topics for hours.

One Question is (if God exists) would he be just and good and all knowing and all powerful, all loving, merciful, gracious... etc a time when man was not yet created? Would His attributes be then as they are now claimed in the bible? Is there any reason as to why He might want to display such attributes? How would He display such attributes without the creation of anything? Does this creation aptly allow Him to display such attributes?

 

[Dogna88]

Wouldn't that mean God either doesn't want me to see his goodness... or he doesn't want me to see his goodness yet?

Yes that is correct, God chooses who He wants to save for His purpose and glory.

His sovereignty does not negate that we as intelligent beings created in His image for His purpose live in rebellion against Him.

Our free will is in defiance of Him, and only His irresistible Grace based on His Sovereign Will can save us from such rebellion.

I get that only for the sake of this discussion your granting the existence of God - and its appreciated as it makes for very thought provoking conversation.

Am I right in saying that your concern is that God has no right to punish humanity for rebelling against Him because He alone has the power to stop that rebellion? Perhaps putting the emphasis of guilt on Him?

Correct. If I blindfold my child and tell him to walk. 30m infront of him is a drop that will kill him. If i have the power/ability to stop him walking. But dont.

1. I cant say i love him
2. I can't say i wanted him not to fall to his death
3. I cant be sad he is dead.

Essentially i knew the outcome of my actions before i told my child to walk. I had the power to stop that outcome during the walk. But i didnt do anything...

Would not I bare the guilt of his death? If i do anything less than stopping him falling would still be sadistic.

 

[Caveman]

Points to ponder for you @Hacky McAxe:

Is murder only a moral term for man killing man with evil intent?

Man kills animals - we don't murder animals.

Man kills man in self defence or at war - we do not call it murder.

God can take the life of man at will by any means - however the soul of that life is eternal as created by God, the tru essence of that created being lives on - just there God given time on this earth is complete.

I do not think God can murder as it is a moral term for an immoral act.

 

[Caveman]

Correct. If I blindfold my child and tell him to walk. 30m infront of him is a drop that will kill him. If i have the power/ability to stop him walking. But dont.

1. I cant say i love him
2. I can't say i wanted him not to fall to his death
3. I cant be sad he is dead.

Essentially i knew the outcome of my actions before i told my child to walk. I had the power to stop that outcome during the walk. But i didnt do anything...

Would not I bare the guilt of his death? If i do anything less than stopping him falling would still be sadistic.

One misconception of the bible is that God loves everyone - we've all heard the term "love the sinner but hate the sin".

Such things are not true of the bible - though it is a requirement of scripture of man to love fellow man, no such stipulation is placed upon God.

As you quoted earlier "Jacob he loved but Esau he hated"

On numerous occasions throughout the bible God discribes his hate for man and hate for sinners because of their acts of sin.

God only loves those who glorify Him through the salvation found in His Son, the rest are his enemy whom he hates.

The simple fact of biblical salvation is God chooses whom He loves for His Glory and He chooses who remains his eternal enemy for His Glory.

 

[Caveman]

@Dogna88 sorry to come across in such a morbid manner but that is simply my understanding of Gods character.

 

[Dogna88]

@Dogna88 sorry to come across in such a morbid manner but that is simply my understanding of Gods character.

No. I honestly appreciate and respect your honest response. I have never had someone of faith say that their interpretation of God isnt all loving. You did, and you owned it.

I wouldn't necessarily worship him. But as said before that comes down to faith and perception of moral values

 

[Caveman]

No. I honestly appreciate and respect your honest response. I have never had someone of faith say that their interpretation of God isnt all loving. You did, and you owned it.

I wouldn't necessarily worship him. But as said before that comes down to faith and perception of moral values

I do still believe God is all loving or more specifically His nature epitomises what perfect and true love is.

However righteous hatred can only stem from true love, just as mercy can only be exhibited if justice exists.

If you love what is morally good there must be destain for what is morally bad, if God were the perfection definition of what love is and He did not hate what contravened perfect pure love, He would no longer be the definition of love.

 

[Dogna88]

I do still believe God is all loving or more specifically His nature epitomises what perfect and true love is.

However righteous hatred can only stem from true love, just as mercy can only be exhibited if justice exists.

If you love what is morally good there must be destain for what is morally bad, if God were the perfection definition of what love is and He did not hate what contravened perfect pure love, He would no longer be the definition of love.

But according to Romans. He created those who were predestined to punishment.

So i guess the question is. Did he create these people (who had no choice of what they were going to be).. purely so he can hate someone?

The twins as well. He made one, knowing the twin would sin, knowing he would hate him, yet made him anyway, did nothing to make the twin better, and predestined him to eternal hell fire.

It just doesn't sit well with me

 

[Caveman]

But according to Romans. He created those who were predestined to punishment.

So i guess the question is. Did he create these people (who had no choice of what they were going to be).. purely so he can hate someone?

The twins as well. He made one, knowing the twin would sin, knowing he would hate him, yet made him anyway, did nothing to make the twin better, and predestined him to eternal hell fire.

It just doesn't sit well with me

I don't think it sits well with me either, I've lost people that I dearly love that seemingly had no care for God whatsoever, and according to scripture if they were not elect would be under the condemnation of their creator forever.

It saddens my to contemplate it because of the gift of there presence in my life.

However I don't think those elect for wrath are created simply so He can hate someone, I think there is more to it then just that - I think his hatred is a by product of His purpose for creation.

Vs 22 and 23 say that he wanted to

1- Display His wrath
2- Make His power known
3- Make known the riches of His Glory on objects of mercy.

Biblically it seems the purpose of creation is not about us at all but rather about Gods Glory - Glory that cost much and that (v22) had to patiently endure.

God from what I understand decided that His will to exhibit the full extent of His character- would require vessels of wrath and vessels of glory.

The truth of the matter is according to scripture we all deserve the wrath of God we all deserve what the second twin got, we inellegently live lives that defy his authority- hence the patient endurance in v22, he made intelligent beings in his image that defy what He deems is good - that if He is good should be dealt with instantly, but he does not, He patiently endures our defiance.

And as an act of mercy will save some for His Glory.

As painful as it is to contemplate such things - I think it is an accurate account for what scripture teaches.

We have no control over Gods purpose for creation according to scripture, however according to scripture we also deserve the punishment that is due - both twins deserved the wrath of God, but mercifully only one recieved it.

 

[Caveman]

No. I honestly appreciate and respect your honest response. I have never had someone of faith say that their interpretation of God isnt all loving. You did, and you owned it.

I wouldn't necessarily worship him. But as said before that comes down to faith and perception of moral values

I appreciate the sincere questioning and respectful dialogue, we should all be willing to investigate the harder questions in our and others world views, and sometimes the most rewarding conversations come about when talking to others who aren't like minded.

 

[The DoggFather]

No. I honestly appreciate and respect your honest response. I have never had someone of faith say that their interpretation of God isnt all loving. You did, and you owned it.

I wouldn't necessarily worship him. But as said before that comes down to faith and perception of moral values

Would it be fair to say God loves whoever loves Him?

God is all loving to people who accept His love. You can't be a non-believer and expect God to love you BUT you have till your last breath to believe and repent.

Now, using my limited human brain to describe the undescribable, sure God can come down to every human and say "here I Am, love Me and obey Me" but chooses not to as if He did do that, then there is no free will. That would be basically forcing you to believe hence no free will. This is covered in the Bible.

John 20:29
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Some might say "I have no evidence of God", I find that very hard to believe. I see that as a closed heart and mind not realising there are signs and evidence of God, ready to write it off as a "fluke" or a "coincidence".

These last 11 years of my life are a testament that God exists.

Too many "coincidences" and proving proven science wrong.

PS my old heart is now in Canada being studied after Australia and the US having 3 years researching it.

 

[The DoggFather]

I appreciate the sincere questioning and respectful dialogue, we should all be willing to investigate the harder questions in our and others world views, and sometimes the most rewarding conversations come about when talking to others who aren't like minded.

Exactly right, that's why I thanked my bro @Dogna88 he always has been respectful to me, even though we are of opposed views.

If we stay and only talk with believers, we become lax and quickly becomes an echo chamber.

 

[Dogna88]

Great discussion boys thank you! Great to get your points. And although we dont agree on the morality of it. And in times past people would kill each other for these type of disagreements. I am sure we could all sit together, have a beer and watch the dogs be shit

 

[The DoggFather]

Great discussion boys thank you! Great to get your points. And although we dont agree on the morality of it. And in times past people would kill each other for these type of disagreements. I am sure we could all sit together, have a beer and watch the dogs be shit

You know me by now bro, I'm not those holier-than-thou zealots that condemn people to hell if you don't agree with me.

BUT always love to help try to understand God when asked. You can only help those that want help.

You can sum me up with what I always say...I can love you, I can pray for you, but I will never compromise my faith for you.

 

[Bob dog]

Fuck the evil conspiracy, has anyone heard of archangels?
Where do these protection spells fit in to Jesus?
Healing Prayer to Saint Raphael the Archangel (virgosacrata.com)

 

[dogwhisperer]

Hi @Dogna88, sorry I haven't responded as I'm always busy and don't have much free will, I mean free time lol.

But here is a link if you're interested.

Predestined for Freedom

Anyone who is finally saved will have been predestined by God because it was God’s predestined plan and God’s grace that went before him and enabled him to be saved. However, this does not mean that God has predestined anyone for hell.

www.catholic.com

 

[N4TE]

Or can the bulldogs not suck?

That was actually the first sentence in the first testament and the answer is no they shall not release themselves of the burden of not sucking. For now and forevermore. Amen

- Souths 20:14