Religious Discussion Thread

[Caveman]

That was actually the first sentence in the first testament and the answer is no they shall not release themselves of the burden of not sucking. For now and forevermore. Amen

- Souths 20:14

And Latrelleth shalteth forever a grub beith.

 

[Wahesh]

 

[The DoggFather]

To continue the cold is the absence of heat and darkness is absence of light duality, hell is the absence of God.

If you dont believe or love God, you want and choose hell because obviously in your earthly life you rejected God, so why would you want to spend eternity with Him?

Are TRUE Christians happy many will go to hell? No! Is God happy that many will and have chosen hell? Of course not!

But that's what many don't and won't understand, He loves us so much that if we really want to be with Him, we will end up in heaven with Him. If you really don't want to be with Him, he will still give you what you want and keep you away from Him in hell, which is the absence of Him.

 

[Wahesh]

To continue the cold is the absence of heat and darkness is absence of light duality, hell is the absence of God.

If you dont believe or love God, you want and choose hell because obviously in your earthly life you rejected God, so why would you want to spend eternity with Him?

Are TRUE Christians happy many will go to hell? No! Is God happy that many have and will chosen hell? Of course not!

But that's what many don't and won't understand, He loves us so much that if we really want to be with Him, we will end up in heaven with Him. If you really don't want to be with Him, he will still give you what you want and keep you away from Him in hell, which is the absence of Him.

That's true brother. He will still do his upmost to help many - and their time will come.

 

[Wahesh]

 

[Dogna88]

All interesting points. A bit of special pleading and straw manning though.

Wahash re Einstein/professor argument. Its accepted that this conversation did not occur as Einstein as the student. In a verified signed letter from his adult life, he actually describes the bible as "a collection of honourable, but still primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish", he goes on to describing he change away from religious doctrine. He was more of a Spinoza God person.

But regardless the point remains.

The discussion around the principles of this conversation have been debated by numerous theists and athiests alike. Quiet interesting between Alex Oconnor and Josh (something).

There are flaws with the 5 premises of the argument. But the major issue (esp with relating it to cold/hot) is the difference between absracts and concepts. I wont bore you but if you are interested have a look.

Also the discussion re evolution and the brain is a massive straw man fallacy. I dont base my opinion that i have a brain based on faith. Its based on testable verifiable evidence.


But back to Romans. Which is my issue atm.

1. I'll grant the existence of a God for argument sake.
2. I cant wrap my head around worshiping a God that purposefully creates billions of people for the sole purpose of torturing them in hell for eternity as a means to display his mercy to the people he has elected beforehand.
There is nothing we can do as humans to change our fate, as it's all in accordance to God's will. And if we cant wrap our head around it, Pauls response is "who are we to question God?"....

 

[The DoggFather]

This explains my life the last 11 years but I learnt very quickly to stop asking why.

Most people don't realise that we are protected so much because we aren't told or see what we are protected from.

With the last 11 years, I know and feel the protection as professors and science tell me what should happen to me but miraculously doesn't. There are books on top of books and precedents and case studies showing i should of been dead and stayed dead back in 2012.

There is too much evidence of God working in my life, to quickly sum it up...

* died 12 times and I'm still here
* was given 5 days to live but lasted 5 years for a donor heart
* medicine was supposed to make me sterile but had 2 healthy children
* 6 years later and 3 different countries studying my old heart still can't figure out how I survived that long where all science condemned me to death.

I'm not special, I'm just another human like everyone else. Science "guess" after all this is mind over matter. I know it's faith over matter.

PS I'm not writing off science at all, but my faith in the Lord Jesus Chist is much more stronger and unshakeable than my faith in science (man).

I know there will be many that would love to prove me wrong and call me nuts (they probably won't on here out of respect and friendship) but there is nothing that they can say or anything I can see that will make me question my faith as I feel it and live it.

 

[The DoggFather]

All interesting points. A bit of special pleading and straw manning though.

Wahash re Einstein/professor argument. Its accepted that this conversation did not occur as Einstein as the student. In a verified signed letter from his adult life, he actually describes the bible as "a collection of honourable, but still primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish", he goes on to describing he change away from religious doctrine. He was more of a Spinoza God person.

But regardless the point remains.

The discussion around the principles of this conversation have been debated by numerous theists and athiests alike. Quiet interesting between Alex Oconnor and Josh (something).

There are flaws with the 5 premises of the argument. But the major issue (esp with relating it to cold/hot) is the difference between absracts and concepts. I wont bore you but if you are interested have a look.

Also the discussion re evolution and the brain is a massive straw man fallacy. I dont base my opinion that i have a brain based on faith. Its based on testable verifiable evidence.

I don't like the brain comparison either tbh and I wouldn't of used it as obviously, we have seen a brain. But I do like the "thoughts" approach.

But its just another attempt of man trying to explain God using man's brains trying to explain to another man.

IE one of my favourite way to explain the Holy Trinity being 1 God. Some just say "He is God and can do whatever He wants" (that answer being like the student asking about the brain) but there is a better explanation to help make it more understandable for the human.

Think of God as H20,

H2O when frozen is ice,
H20 when liquid is water,
H2O when vapourised is steam,

No matter what state it is, it's still H20.

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit

 

[Dogna88]

You know me by now bro, I'm not those holier-than-thou zealots that condemn people to hell if you don't agree with me.

BUT always love to help try to understand God when asked. You can only help those that want help.

You can sum me up with what I always say...I can love you, I can pray for you, but I will never compromise my faith for you.

All respect here man.

I am not so much asking to understand God. I don't believe there is a God to understand. I have made a personal choice to try not argue or debate the existence of God anymore. I can turn into a c**t, and thats not who I wanna be

I am more interested in understanding the concept of God in relation to morality and worship. The philosophy around faith an its links with morality.

 

[The DoggFather]

All respect here man.

I am not so much asking to understand God. I don't believe there is a God to understand.
I am more interested in understanding the concept of God in relation to morality and worship. The philosophy around faith an its links with morality.

I wish I have the words to fully satisfy your search but I admit I don't have all the knowledge required or even the capacity to achieve that. But since you are sincere and respectful I can try...

As I believe that God created everything, I lean towards that God, the creator, created morality. I see it as an inbuilt "software". We were created in His image BUT this is where free will kicks in. We choose what to do with our morality. Whether you believe in God or not, morality is built in and your stance depends on your belief IE "I am a good person because I am and don't need God" or "I'm a believer and happy to be moral as it pleases God and makes me feel good".

I personally believe we hear God talking to us through our conscience, up to you if you think it's God or you but I still think it's one of Gods fingerprints on His creation.

 

[The DoggFather]

I have made a personal choice to try not argue or debate the existence of God anymore. I can turn into a c**t, and thats not who I wanna be

I hear you 100% bro, you and others like Hacky can actually debate without being ***** (when the same respect is given back to you).

You choosing not to be a **** shows you have morals and a good human. Now not talking anything away from you as a human, but in my view, you are subconsciously following your "inbuilt software". Now please do not get offended at that, I'm not saying God made you be a good man, im saying that you yourself chose that path of morality or "options" that have been given to all of us.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

So God isn't all powerful....

 

[Wahesh]

So God isn't all powerful....

Of course he is, but as @ASSASSIN said... "Most people don't realise that we are protected so much because we aren't told or see what we are protected from."

 

[The DoggFather]

So God isn't all powerful....

Using that picture, He will let little stones hit us to wake us up or realise we are slipping. Sure they might hurt us but nothing like the boulders He is stopping that can do to us.

That's my take.

 

[Kelpie03]

Was having a discussion today. Interesting questions arose.

If we design a robot to be selfless and programmed it to bring about what we the programs believe to be fairness. As the robout goes about its business fulfilling its programming and procuring fairness. Could you call it a moral agent when its just fulfilling commands of its programming?

Mate the human beings who designed the robot will programe it to suit their own agenda/narative.
The reason I follow Christs teachings, is because his teachings are by far the best for the good of all mankind not just for the few with a vested interest.
If you know of a set of rules which are better than those taught by Christ tell us what they are.

 

[Kelpie03]

Yes correct. Esp the example of Jacob and Esau. To me this negates the notion of free will. God makes people the way he wants them to. That everything depends on Gods mercy and not on what people want/do. He chooses people based on his will. And Paul points out the issue, the answer is "Who are we to question God"


"For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

I thought that Jesus said, "be mercifull and I will be mercifull to you."

 

[Kelpie03]

Yes, totally agree with the total sovereign will of God - either man has free will and autonomy putting the power of man's will out side of Gods sovereignty and power, hence making man the supreme dictator of eternity and reducing Gods power to chance - or God in His supreme power chooses whom He will save for His Glory.

The simple fact of the bible is "all have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God".

Our purpose as defined in the bible is to glorify God and enjoy him forever, however we are all corrupted, "no one seeks for God" no one seeks to glorify God, our very nature is to be at war against Him, we go through life ignoring Him, criticising Him, mocking Him - His will is the enemy of our will, we despise Him completely and will do for all eternity - Unless we are graciously chosen by Him to see and understand His goodness - to see and understand that though we being His creation who constantly are at war with Him, He still sent His son down into creation to be the ultimate sacrifice for our own hated to Him - the greatest act of love, to die on a cross for our sin at the hands of those he has come to save, that those who may trust in Him, may see the glory of His love for all eternity.

You sumerised it very well Caveman.

 

[Kelpie03]

Predestination is very difficult to marry up with justice and judgement, it always has been and probably will be until we see Him face to face.

However I think it is hard to marry up because we think so highly of man (man deserves this and man deserves that) and think so lowly of God (the creator can't do that to His creation).

A bit like I want the government to give me this and do this and that for me.
It seems that Jesus only wanted to die on the cross, so what is he going to give us in the end.

 

[Kelpie03]

Thanks for the honest response. My issue is that through Paul, God clearly states he has created some (not all) predestined for destruction. This is evident in the twin example.

To me. And i understand Assassins point. I just dont see how a human predestined for destruction by an all powerful God, can change that path with that change also be predestined.

We were all given a free will, Adan @ Eve had a free will, but we inherated the desire to do evil things (In affect self destruct), Jesus gave us the oppurtunity to repent and seek forgiveness by comming to earth and by dying on the cross.
Two clasic cases of turning your life around were St Agustine who reportartly committed every sin possible, and St paul who killed Christians before his conversion.

 

[Kelpie03]

Yeh bro, it's a very difficult concept to comprehend even for Christians, though I think verse 22(?) gives a good explanation as to why God choose some for destruction - or possibly more to the point, why he choose to save some from destruction.

I can't understand how God programed some to self destruct, when no one can dispute that he gave all of us a free will.