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Opinion Pay vs Barrett: Opening 4 Rounds Comparison 2020 vs 2021

GDR

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Is there any signinficant difference in those stats, they're both low totals and we're losing games.

The only differences of note are that we're a new team trying very new things, albeit unsuccessfully at the moment, and there are new rules making it easier for teams winning and harder for teams losing. Look at the difference in point margins, most are big.

Lets give more time then make some year to year comparisons.
I have not seen one thing that even remotely resembles "new things".

Sorry my apologies, shitter defense is the only new thing I've noticed.
 

Aristidiz

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Time will tell, club needs to focus on assembling a competitive group of individuals, if Barrett can't get the best out of them then move him on
 

Magilla

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Why? Because it didn't include a conspiracy theory?
Its a dumb thread fullstop. Did the rules change in the off season? Has the bounce of the ball been kind to us? Have we been given a fair go by ref's? Have we been at full strength? Judge Barrett on 2022 not 2021.
 

DinkumDog

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So what if it was Klemmers money ???

He still chose to sign him.
Yeah, I’m simply saying outside that there was very little due to signing Woods and Foran on an assumed $10m cap which was actually $9.4m. Luckily we were able to shed Woods and Mbye to stay under the cap, then Eastwood left end of 2018 and freed up more, but it was tight until the end of 2020. Pay had very little to play with financially regardless of anything else.
 

Magilla

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This is not a dumb thread.

I am in camp “let’s give Barrett time”, but from a fan’s perspective it’s easy to ask these questions and make comparisons. That’s what passionate fans do. They demand accountability and ask questions, with the club’s long term future in mind.

Barrett, by and large, is an unsuccessful coach. His record as head coach is pretty lacklustre. This information was well known to the club prior to signing him. This is interesting, given that there were other coaches on the market at the time with far better resumes and records. I know Holbrook is not available, but a quick look at his record shows that success has followed the guy around - he can coach and has an awesome track record, albeit with little NRL experience. I think many Dogs fans wanted a candidate like Holbrook...when Barrett was being sounded out, I must admit, I cocked my head like a confused puppy (no pun intended)...

Either Barrett was the only one who showed interest or club executives know more than we do about his potential. I am hoping the latter! I think we have to take the whole Penrith attacking coach role with a grain of salt - a different role, different context and he wasn’t the main man. Check out all the assistant coaches who have not had things go their way as head coaches, the list is long....it’s no guarantee - see Jason Taylor.

Overall, I think there are many fans who are not sure why Barrett is the coach. Why did the club pursue him so aggressively? Particularly given that if this doesn’t work out, it could set the club back years.

People want to see an improvement from the Pay years. That was the whole reason for shifting to Barrett.

Let’s see what happens this weekend, I think fans are looking improvement, semi competitive would be great. This is what we’ve been asking for since round one.
Improvement from Pay to Barrett was one reason but it wasn't the only reason. We have a coach who can attract players. Barrett and the board have a plan. There will be a ckeanout. Time to look forward and not back.
 

B-Train

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Are you seriously comparing the two squads? Pay had an infinitely better team and still somehow got us off to 1-4 and finished 12th with an 8-16 record with a team that was filled with rep players and had recently made several finals runs..

This was Pay's best season as coach and you somehow celebrate these "achievements " as if we should yearn for him to return? The reason our squad has turned to shit and our players look so crap is because Pay had no idea what he was doing.. Pay lovers made us wait through three years of 12ppg attack and bottom 5 finishes, but you want Barrett fired after four games? Please...

2018 Team:
1: Brett Morris
2: Chase Stanley
3: Josh Morris
4: Will Hopoate
5: Reimis Smith
6: Keiran Foran
7: Moses Mbye
8: Dave Klemmer
9: Michael Lichaa
10: Aiden Tolman
11: Josh Jackson
12: Raymond Faitala-Mariner
13: Greg Eastwood

14: Aaron Woods
15: Adam Elliott
16: Francis Talau
17: Lachlan Lewis

2021:

1: Corey Allan
2: Nick Meaney
3: Nick Cotric
4: Will Hopoate
5: Dallin Watene-Zelezniak
6: Jake Averillo
7: Kyle Flanagan
8: Okahifi Ogden
9: Sione Katoa
10: Jack Hetherington
11: Adam Elliott
12: Corey Waddell
13: Josh Jackson

14: Raymond Faitala-Mariner
15: Brad Deitz
16: Renouf Atoni
17: Dylan Napa
 

DogDays

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Improvement from Pay to Barrett was one reason but it wasn't the only reason. We have a coach who can attract players. Barrett and the board have a plan. There will be a ckeanout. Time to look forward and not back.
Good point.

I certainly hope he can attract players, $$$ will also attract players, and we will have plenty to spend, something we haven’t had. However, a culture of success must be built. Barrett won’t attract quality players if he doesn’t win games. We also need to be careful not to be content with writing this season off (or any season, for that matter) under the guise of “rebuilding”. I just don’t think it’s good enough that so many seem happy and content just see this through, bring on 2022 wait for Burton...We’ve heard all this before and fans won’t stand for mediocrity for much longer. Remember, it was only a few weeks ago (before a ball was kicked) that there was a sense of optimism at the new recruits, a new focus etc, not many predicted these first 4 weeks would be so tough and one sided for the Bulldogs...I thought other clubs would be doing worse. Time will tell.
 

Como Dog

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I have not seen one thing that even remotely resembles "new things".

Sorry my apologies, shitter defense is the only new thing I've noticed.
That's why I said albeit unsucessfully. I'll guarantee what we're trying to achieve in attack in Barrett's 1st year will be a lot better when it starts to work, than what was being dished up in Pay's third year with the team.
 
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Rodzilla

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Are you seriously comparing the two squads? Pay had an infinitely better team and still somehow got us off to 1-4 and finished 12th with an 8-16 record with a team that was filled with rep players and had recently made several finals runs..

This was Pay's best season as coach and you somehow celebrate these "achievements " as if we should yearn for him to return? The reason our squad has turned to shit and our players look so crap is because Pay had no idea what he was doing.. Pay lovers made us wait through three years of 12ppg attack and bottom 5 finishes, but you want Barrett fired after four games? Please...

2018 Team:
1: Brett Morris
2: Chase Stanley
3: Josh Morris
4: Will Hopoate
5: Reimis Smith
6: Keiran Foran
7: Moses Mbye
8: Dave Klemmer
9: Michael Lichaa
10: Aiden Tolman
11: Josh Jackson
12: Raymond Faitala-Mariner
13: Greg Eastwood

14: Aaron Woods
15: Adam Elliott
16: Francis Talau
17: Lachlan Lewis

2021:

1: Corey Allan
2: Nick Meaney
3: Nick Cotric
4: Will Hopoate
5: Dallin Watene-Zelezniak
6: Jake Averillo
7: Kyle Flanagan
8: Okahifi Ogden
9: Sione Katoa
10: Jack Hetherington
11: Adam Elliott
12: Corey Waddell
13: Josh Jackson

14: Raymond Faitala-Mariner
15: Brad Deitz
16: Renouf Atoni
17: Dylan Napa
you are having a meltdown with this barrett situation, this is clearly 2020 vs 2021

btw pays best year is obviously 2019 when he somehow won 10 games that season, the best win on paper was when we won against penrith who were playing to stay in the top 8 late in the season and this loss ultimately cost them, cogger/lewis halves against maloney/cleary
 

Ewan McGrady

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Thompson had better play out of his skin from now till the end of the season. DWZ also. Injuries are one thing but suspensions for ridiculous on field behaviour is disgraceful. Thompson would be close to if not our highest paid player. He needs to start to earn it. He has let us down completely.
 

B-Train

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you are having a meltdown with this barrett situation, this is clearly 2020 vs 2021

btw pays best year is obviously 2019 when he somehow won 10 games that season, the best win on paper was when we won against penrith who were playing to stay in the top 8 late in the season and this loss ultimately cost them, cogger/lewis halves against maloney/cleary
Criticise Barrett all you want for all I care, but anyone suggesting that Pay did a good job and still deserves to be coach clearly has no idea and doesn't have the clubs best interests at heart..

Again, (you can check my posts ag the time since you love to) they should have signed Holbrook when they had the chance but they stuck with Pay and delayed the rebuild further through their indecision.

Now the club finds itself in this situation and with this horrible roster and it's supposedly all Barrett's fault after four games... Talk about being hypocritical and unreasonable...
 
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B-Train

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you are having a meltdown with this barrett situation, this is clearly 2020 vs 2021

btw pays best year is obviously 2019 when he somehow won 10 games that season, the best win on paper was when we won against penrith who were playing to stay in the top 8 late in the season and this loss ultimately cost them, cogger/lewis halves against maloney/cleary
Simple question Rod... Was our 2018 squad better than our current squad based on talent?
 

Rodzilla

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Criticise Barrett all you want for all I care, but anyone suggesting that Pay did a good job and still deserves to be coach clearly has no idea and doesn't have the clubs best interests at heart..

Again, (you can check my posts ag the time since you love to) they should have signed Holbrook when they had the chance but they stuck with Pay and delayed the rebuild further through their indecision.

Now the club finds itself in this situation and with this horrible roster and it's supoosedly all Barrett's fault after four games... Talk about being hypocritical and unreasonable...
actually i have already checked and i have a post from you that says its quite an easy job to make us competitive this year for a top 8 spot, the media was saying how barrett is walking into a shit situation but you said its better than it looks
 

GDR

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That's why I said albeit unsucessfully. I'll guarantee what we're trying to achieve in attack in Barrett's 1st year will be a lot better when it starts to work, than what was being dished up in Pay's third year with the team.
I hope you are right.. but I have my doubts..
 

Rodzilla

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Simple question Rod... Was our 2018 squad better than our current squad based on talent?
yes but what has that got to do with anything?

2019 squad was probably equal with 2021 and pay won even more games
 

B-Train

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actually i have already checked and i have a post from you that says its quite an easy job to make us competitive this year for a top 8 spot, the media was saying how barrett is walking into a shit situation but you said its better than it looks
That was under the proviso that Burton came.. I said after our horror start to the season, we should finish between 8-12th.. And that was before we got injuries and suspensions to everyone to further decimate the squad.

RFM went down, Averillo was injured, DWZ suspended, Meaney injured, Jackson missing two games, JMK was injured etc.. But nice try..

Answer my simple question.. Which squad was more talented? 2018 or 2021?
 

B-Train

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yes but what has that got to do with anything?

2019 squad was probably equal with 2021 and pay won even more games
Because people are comparing Barrett this year to a team that had the Morris brothers, Klemmer, Woods and Foran, Hoppa and Tolman when they were more serviceable and not as old, Elliott on the bench and he still did nothing with that team that should have made the finals..
 

Horse

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Are you seriously comparing the two squads? Pay had an infinitely better team and still somehow got us off to 1-4 and finished 12th with an 8-16 record with a team that was filled with rep players and had recently made several finals runs..

This was Pay's best season as coach and you somehow celebrate these "achievements " as if we should yearn for him to return? The reason our squad has turned to shit and our players look so crap is because Pay had no idea what he was doing.. Pay lovers made us wait through three years of 12ppg attack and bottom 5 finishes, but you want Barrett fired after four games? Please...

2018 Team:
1: Brett Morris
2: Chase Stanley
3: Josh Morris
4: Will Hopoate
5: Reimis Smith
6: Keiran Foran
7: Moses Mbye
8: Dave Klemmer
9: Michael Lichaa
10: Aiden Tolman
11: Josh Jackson
12: Raymond Faitala-Mariner
13: Greg Eastwood

14: Aaron Woods
15: Adam Elliott
16: Francis Talau
17: Lachlan Lewis

2021:

1: Corey Allan
2: Nick Meaney
3: Nick Cotric
4: Will Hopoate
5: Dallin Watene-Zelezniak
6: Jake Averillo
7: Kyle Flanagan
8: Okahifi Ogden
9: Sione Katoa
10: Jack Hetherington
11: Adam Elliott
12: Corey Waddell
13: Josh Jackson

14: Raymond Faitala-Mariner
15: Brad Deitz
16: Renouf Atoni
17: Dylan Napa
Come on Ben, posting that R1 2018 team up and using it as some form of credible yardstick for comparing then and now is a very lazy and narrow minded manoeuvre. Simply does not paint an accurate picture.

When that team took the field our salary cap was in absolute turmoil due to mismanagement. As a consequence 2 of our ‘marquee’ players in that lineup were being shopped around and were playing for other clubs halfway through that season. Our 1.1M/season flop missed half the season (as well as the next 2 seasons) due to injury. The other ‘name’ players in that lineup were forced out by seasons end. This was all just to return to cap compliance which meant minimal significant or even apt replacements could be secured.

Depth outside of that 17 was frighteningly skinny and remained that way due to forced inactivity in the market and a dearth of junior talent coming through the grades due to unforgivable negligence by those previously in charge. I can go on but surely don’t need to.

Ive seen yourself and another member present that team for comparison purposes and I hope it’s never used again as it doesn’t even come close to telling the full story. You’re better than that.
 

B-Train

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Come on Ben, posting that R1 2018 team up and using it as some form of credible yardstick for comparing then and now is a very lazy and narrow minded manoeuvre. Simply does not paint an accurate picture.

When that team took the field our salary cap was in absolute turmoil due to mismanagement. As a consequence 2 of our ‘marquee’ players in that lineup were being shopped around and were playing for other clubs halfway through that season. Our 1.1M/season flop missed half the season (as well as the next 2 seasons) due to injury. The other ‘name’ players in that lineup were forced out by seasons end. This was all just to return to cap compliance which meant minimal significant or even apt replacements could be secured.

Depth outside of that 17 was frighteningly skinny and remained that way due to forced inactivity in the market and a dearth of junior talent coming through the grades due to unforgivable negligence by those previously in charge. I can go on but surely don’t need to.

Ive seen yourself and another member present that team for comparison purposes and I hope it’s never used again as it doesn’t paint even close to an accurate picture. You’re better than that.
Why? He still had that team for the first half of the season. I agree after that, the issues with Woods and moving players on made it harder.

But those are similar excuses that people are making for Barrett regarding six again impact (look at Manly and Nth Qld), injuries/suspensions and a horror draw.

Anyway, I don't understand the point of the thread. Pay wasn't a good coach. He was given three years. Barrett has made mistakes with selections and signings and may not be the answer as our coach either. Time will tell. Not scoring in three weeks is unacceptable.

But he's going to coach the rest of the season at least and we signed a top 5 half in Burton and Addo-Carr in part because if Barrett's contacts. So even if he is eventually fired, at least we would have got more to show for it to build for the future than we ever did under Pay..
 
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