MT Wilson 9yr old found?

south of heaven

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The caravan Charlise Mutten’s mum was staying in the night before the nine-year-old was allegedly murdered has been pulled apart by police.
They are closing in BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Natboy

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Hopefully the bloke rolls on her and/or there’s evidence she was involved and not some concealing indictable offence crap she get a small sentence for and spends it in hospital anyway
 

south of heaven

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Hopefully the bloke rolls on her and/or there’s evidence she was involved and not some concealing indictable offence crap she get a small sentence for and spends it in hospital anyway
Looks like she knew exactly what happened and was part of trying to cover it up ,already killed some one on a meth bender she wont have a sympathetic jury hopefully they go for the jugular ,maybe they trying to get enough on her for a murder charge also ,its pretty clear she could already have charges against her so im guessing they are trying to get her for murder.
I also could be way off
 

Natboy

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Looks like she knew exactly what happened and was part of trying to cover it up ,already killed some one on a meth bender she wont have a sympathetic jury hopefully they go for the jugular ,maybe they trying to get enough on her for a murder charge also ,its pretty clear she could already have charges against her so im guessing they are trying to get her for murder.
I also could be way off
You’re probably spot on. I haven’t been able to follow the case but the police are sneaky pricks & would’ve recorded a shit load, had bugs everywhere etc allowing the scum to give themselves up. As Chris said the bloke clearly wasn’t very smart & she looks as dumb as dog shit too
 

Psycho Doggie

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Maybe things are different in different areas of Australia, but where I work I've found two things to be consistently true:
1) Jail makes most people worse (more evil), not better. Yes there are exceptions, so note the use of the word "most".
2) Jail is far from the end of it for even moderate offences.
For both these points most people don't see the evidence. There are an unhappy group of people who are employed or contracted to deal with criminals post jail. What they see is people who will probably never really settle properly into society, they are often damaged before they go into jail, and come out even more damaged. And the fact is they are under a bunch of restrictions once they get out, but have often become paranoid about the system that now controls them in so many ways. The same system places an expectation on parole officers, counsellors, and psychologists, that they will deliver sufficient care and management of these damaged and difficult people. Such people try as best they can, with limited resources, to do their job. They deal with monsters, in part they loathe them more than you ever will, but also they know the awful secret, that most of the evil people are more created than born.

Why does the justice system seem to get things wrong so often? I don't call it a justice system, it is a legal system. The system is subject to principles. For example, the death penalty was abolished because too often it was discovered after the fact that the executed person was actually innocent. If society doesn't want any system or individuals that it invests with authority to be tyrannical, than in-principle you can't have the judicial authority being responsible for killing more innocent people than any of the criminals it is supposed to be dealing with. There are plenty of other principles in play, like the balance between societies demands for retribution (such as this case), and societies desire for rehabilitation (which is expressed by at least some people in most cases, but more on that in a moment). Unfortunately systems are not all that good at considering individual cases, even though the judiciary is supposed to be set up to allow judges to consider the individual cases, the reality is they are tied down by system level considerations such as principle and precedent. What a lot of people also don't realise is just how politicised the judiciary actually is.

Something else that isn't well understood (blame the media if you want, but I think the reasons are more complicated) is that time and time again the offenders that are put through the corrections system were themselves victims as kids, this is where, when the facts are known, most people do start to lean towards trying to rehabilitate. Consider for a moment what you would do if you had to pass judgement on someone who has a heroin addiction and the evidence shows clearly that they were repeatedly raped as a 7 year old girl and have since developed paranoid delusions, PTSD, and dissociative disorder. Her addiction to drugs happened because she doesn't get any support (she is unsurprisingly scared and distrusting of people so didn't make any good friends when growing up, and social support systems are grossly underfunded), and shooting up provides short term relief from some of the daily things she struggles with, memories, nightmares, intrusive thoughts, etc. You are the judge. Do you send her to jail, where you know she definitely won't get support, and she will absolutely be subject to more trauma?

I don't make this up as a hypothetical example, I have a colleague who was attacked by a person who was so effected and was suffering an episode of paranoid psychosis. What most people don't see is the reality on the ground of trying to deal with these people and being subject to the principles and ethics of a society that is conflicted and which makes demands for the judiciary to do things to others (retribution) that they would demand not be done to themselves because of the context and because of what has been done to them (they want rehabilitation to be considered for themselves).

It is easy to be judgmental on such awful cases as the brutal killing of children. Maybe it helps us deal with the awful knowledge that someone out there did something so terrible, maybe it makes us feel self-righteous. I suspect one thing it does is it helps us believe that society isn't what is wrong, it is individual people out there who are evil.

Maybe we just don't want to face the facts, we live in a society that is in many ways broken and twisted, and which doesn't have effective answers to serious problems. Evil gives birth to more evil, the percentage of people subject to the corrections system who were innocent victims when they were children is far higher than the percentage in the general population.

It is a lot easier to point the finger at evil people, than to reflect on the evidence that we exist in a society that has culpability in the creation of evil people. For many of us society feels like it has been good, has given us opportunities that we've seized and made something out of. Could it be true that the same society is simultaneously complicit in bad things happening to other people? That would mean that the same systems that were good for us, were hurting others. That is a very difficult thought. Much easier to say individuals are to blame, and to demand they get locked up and feel our wrath, albeit indirectly, we don't actually want to meet any of these people.
 

Kelpie03

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So it looks like they have found the missing 9yr old girls body at Colo, the stepfather charged with her murder both carers ice addicts, one a previous killer served time for vehicular manslaughter he got out in December after a few years for a commercial quantity of drugs WOW! This poor child was let down badly by the system.
Some people arn't fit to be parents, I have always held the opinion that some people should be sterilised, but it wont happen because the bleeding hearts will cry tears at the mear suggestion, yet they are so blind that they refuse to see the suffering of some kids.
 

wendog33

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Maybe things are different in different areas of Australia, but where I work I've found two things to be consistently true:
1) Jail makes most people worse (more evil), not better. Yes there are exceptions, so note the use of the word "most".
2) Jail is far from the end of it for even moderate offences.
For both these points most people don't see the evidence. There are an unhappy group of people who are employed or contracted to deal with criminals post jail. What they see is people who will probably never really settle properly into society, they are often damaged before they go into jail, and come out even more damaged. And the fact is they are under a bunch of restrictions once they get out, but have often become paranoid about the system that now controls them in so many ways. The same system places an expectation on parole officers, counsellors, and psychologists, that they will deliver sufficient care and management of these damaged and difficult people. Such people try as best they can, with limited resources, to do their job. They deal with monsters, in part they loathe them more than you ever will, but also they know the awful secret, that most of the evil people are more created than born.

Why does the justice system seem to get things wrong so often? I don't call it a justice system, it is a legal system. The system is subject to principles. For example, the death penalty was abolished because too often it was discovered after the fact that the executed person was actually innocent. If society doesn't want any system or individuals that it invests with authority to be tyrannical, than in-principle you can't have the judicial authority being responsible for killing more innocent people than any of the criminals it is supposed to be dealing with. There are plenty of other principles in play, like the balance between societies demands for retribution (such as this case), and societies desire for rehabilitation (which is expressed by at least some people in most cases, but more on that in a moment). Unfortunately systems are not all that good at considering individual cases, even though the judiciary is supposed to be set up to allow judges to consider the individual cases, the reality is they are tied down by system level considerations such as principle and precedent. What a lot of people also don't realise is just how politicised the judiciary actually is.

Something else that isn't well understood (blame the media if you want, but I think the reasons are more complicated) is that time and time again the offenders that are put through the corrections system were themselves victims as kids, this is where, when the facts are known, most people do start to lean towards trying to rehabilitate. Consider for a moment what you would do if you had to pass judgement on someone who has a heroin addiction and the evidence shows clearly that they were repeatedly raped as a 7 year old girl and have since developed paranoid delusions, PTSD, and dissociative disorder. Her addiction to drugs happened because she doesn't get any support (she is unsurprisingly scared and distrusting of people so didn't make any good friends when growing up, and social support systems are grossly underfunded), and shooting up provides short term relief from some of the daily things she struggles with, memories, nightmares, intrusive thoughts, etc. You are the judge. Do you send her to jail, where you know she definitely won't get support, and she will absolutely be subject to more trauma?

I don't make this up as a hypothetical example, I have a colleague who was attacked by a person who was so effected and was suffering an episode of paranoid psychosis. What most people don't see is the reality on the ground of trying to deal with these people and being subject to the principles and ethics of a society that is conflicted and which makes demands for the judiciary to do things to others (retribution) that they would demand not be done to themselves because of the context and because of what has been done to them (they want rehabilitation to be considered for themselves).

It is easy to be judgmental on such awful cases as the brutal killing of children. Maybe it helps us deal with the awful knowledge that someone out there did something so terrible, maybe it makes us feel self-righteous. I suspect one thing it does is it helps us believe that society isn't what is wrong, it is individual people out there who are evil.

Maybe we just don't want to face the facts, we live in a society that is in many ways broken and twisted, and which doesn't have effective answers to serious problems. Evil gives birth to more evil, the percentage of people subject to the corrections system who were innocent victims when they were children is far higher than the percentage in the general population.

It is a lot easier to point the finger at evil people, than to reflect on the evidence that we exist in a society that has culpability in the creation of evil people. For many of us society feels like it has been good, has given us opportunities that we've seized and made something out of. Could it be true that the same society is simultaneously complicit in bad things happening to other people? That would mean that the same systems that were good for us, were hurting others. That is a very difficult thought. Much easier to say individuals are to blame, and to demand they get locked up and feel our wrath, albeit indirectly, we don't actually want to meet any of these people.
Good analysis of the conundrum PD.

I think a lot of us are expressing our frustration with the courts by seeming to be too lenient and therefore ineffective in preventing these heinous child crimes and/or too ineffectual in dealing with these troubled souls with early prevention.

Bearing in mind, a lot of the public don't believe these individuals deserve rehabilitation because they have committed these terrible murders.

When you say the judiciary is political, how does that manifest itself in outcomes, in your view?


Based on your work, do you have any thoughts, suggestions, on at least some pathway forward to alleviate these situations.
 

Psycho Doggie

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Some people arn't fit to be parents, I have always held the opinion that some people should be sterilised, but it wont happen because the bleeding hearts will cry tears at the mear suggestion, yet they are so blind that they refuse to see the suffering of some kids.
I deal with people who were damaged as kids by bad parents on a regular basis. I'd like nothing more than to stop bad parenting, but sterilisation is not the answer, unless we are willing to accept authorities that rule by tyranny, China style. No one can say for certain that a specific person will be no good as a parent, or that a different specific person will be good as a parent. We can say that a specific person is "more likely" to be a bad parent than a different specific person, but not with 100% certainty. This means that sterilisation will inevitably be an unjustified tyranny to at least some people. If we agree that society should be allowed to do this, then we can not complain if society is in some ways a tyranny to ourselves. We don't want that, we want a free society, but are we mature enough to understand the costs?

The same basic concept dominates the legal system. I know of a case where because the Police arrived at a scene at a certain time, they were able to arrest and later convict a person of rape, assault, and a few other things. If they had arrived 10 minutes earlier, they would have not been able to arrest and convict on any of those charges. However, if they had arrived 10 minutes earlier a young lady would have been spared a traumatic experience which to this day she is struggling to deal with. The criminal was only able to be held accountable AFTER doing the things that caused serious life changing trauma to an innocent person. People can't be found guilty of something until after they have done it, but that means that there will be victims.

Individuals can choose for themselves whether they should or shouldn't have kids, and take certain actions. Ironically some of the people I know who've decided not to have kids, for various reasons, would probably make excellent parents (though I can't be 100% certain).
 

Psycho Doggie

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When you say the judiciary is political, how does that manifest itself in outcomes, in your view?
Being a top ranked judge or prosecutor brings a lot of status and esteem. Such positions are also subject to plenty of scrutiny and judgement. Human nature (envy, greed, pride) tends to make such positions very difficult to gain, let alone hold onto, unless you play the relevant games well.

Based on your work, do you have any thoughts, suggestions, on at least some pathway forward to alleviate these situations.
Nothing that would solve a problem without creating a different problem. I wouldn't mind if there was more understanding of the reality on the ground, but people don't want to know, or don't have the time to know. But if we want a free society, we have to accept that this will inevitably be the case.

Winston Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried", and I agree with the sentiment behind that observation.
 

wendog33

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Being a top ranked judge or prosecutor brings a lot of status and esteem. Such positions are also subject to plenty of scrutiny and judgement. Human nature (envy, greed, pride) tends to make such positions very difficult to gain, let alone hold onto, unless you play the relevant games well.



Nothing that would solve a problem without creating a different problem. I wouldn't mind if there was more understanding of the reality on the ground, but people don't want to know, or don't have the time to know. But if we want a free society, we have to accept that this will inevitably be the case.

Winston Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried", and I agree with the sentiment behind that observation.
Any thoughts on how to protect kids?

We've all heard about DOCS (whatever its called now) being under funded but where are we going wrong.

In this particular case, we know now the child was put into a vulnerable place and situation. Can it be minimised in any way? Do these bad parents who have lost custody of children, deserve any consideration?

Should a table of offences, current living conditions, past offences involving drugs, or not, earn a kinda points system...if you collate too many points you lose visitation rights and possibly putting the child in harms way due to your chosen lifestyle?
 

Psycho Doggie

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Any thoughts on how to protect kids?

We've all heard about DOCS (whatever its called now) being under funded but where are we going wrong.

In this particular case, we know now the child was put into a vulnerable place and situation. Can it be minimised in any way? Do these bad parents who have lost custody of children, deserve any consideration?

Should a table of offences, current living conditions, past offences involving drugs, or not, earn a kinda points system...if you collate too many points you lose visitation rights and possibly putting the child in harms way due to your chosen lifestyle?
The principles behind those types of solutions are already in play. Past offences are factored in and considered. At the same time society expects people to try to do better, and that expectation has to be met by provision of space for people to show that they are doing better. Keep in mind that the media being what it is the times of dramatic failure will be plastered all over the front page for days, whereas the many instances where someone actually does do better, sometimes much better, are only known by close family and friends, and case workers.
 

wendog33

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The principles behind those types of solutions are already in play. Past offences are factored in and considered. At the same time society expects people to try to do better, and that expectation has to be met by provision of space for people to show that they are doing better. Keep in mind that the media being what it is the times of dramatic failure will be plastered all over the front page for days, whereas the many instances where someone actually does do better, sometimes much better, are only known by close family and friends, and case workers.
Yes true re the media.
We all fall for the exaggeration and spin.
 

N4TE

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She was shot? Who the fuck shots a kid?
I wonder if she shot herself accidentally after finding a weapon or even “the parents” on a drug binge and he was showing off his gun and accidentally did it and then panicked and did what he did next. Or the ultimate fucked up if he did it with full awareness. Obviously an unstable household and they must have knew the ultimate outcome but drugs must have stopped them from thinking straight obviously and they thought they could lie their way or something out of it.
 
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south of heaven

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Something not making sense on this what so ever guess it will come out soon enough i guess
 
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