News Josh Morris upset by Cronulla’s refusal to release him to join Roosters

[Wahesh]

Jack Dog made the point in another thread about this situation when I said Nulla are looking to easy their cap and letting Morris go would benefit them that he wouldn't be on that much coin to make a real difference if they do let him go. And that view seems to be backed up by the fact they are not letting him go. And given we have released Cronk, Mitchell and Tetevano and signed no one, it would not be a stretch to think we could come up with enough coin to sign JMoz for one year.

Acknowledging that you have signed no one, you have re-signed Nat Butcher, Siosiua Taukeiaho and Jared Waerea-Hargreaves.

 

[Spoonman84]

Acknowledging that you have signed no one, you have re-signed Nat Butcher, Siosiua Taukeiaho and Jared Waerea-Hargreaves.

Plus Manu.

 

[KambahOne]

Acknowledging that you have signed no one, you have re-signed Nat Butcher, Siosiua Taukeiaho and Jared Waerea-Hargreaves.

As Spoon mentioned also include Manu in those re-signings, but they would not account for the amount we freed up.

 

[B-Train]

As Spoon mentioned also include Manu in those re-signings, but they would not account for the amount we freed up.

It would be close..

They've signed Flanagan also.. Let's say conservatively Cronk, Latrell and Tetevano were on $1.85m combined. A million for Cronk, 550k for Latrell and 300k for Tetevano..

Flanagan would have cost 400-500k. Butcher would be upgraded by about 250-300k from his rookie deal. Radley's contract would be going up by 200k or so...SST would be earning 200-300k more. JWH at least 150k more. Manu would be on at least 200-300k more.

That's about $1.5-1.6 million spent right on upgrading those guys and signing Flanagan. That's not factoring in extending Verrilis either.

 

[KambahOne]

It would be close..

They've signed Flanagan also.. Let's say conservatively Cronk, Latrell and Tetevano were on $1.85m combined. A million for Cronk, 550k for Latrell and 300k for Tetevano..

Flanagan would have cost 400-500k. Butcher would be upgraded by about 250-300k from his rookie deal. Radley's contract would be going up by 200k or so...SST would be earning 200-300k more. JWH at least 150k more. Manu would be on at least 200-300k more.

That's about $1.5-1.6 million spent right on upgrading those guys and signing Flanagan. That's not factoring in extending Verrilis either.

Not even! For a start Radley signed a 5 year deal in 2018 so there is no "going up by $200K" for his contract. And if you think we signed Flannagan for $500K, and increased a bench forward (Butcher) by $300K you are clearly not giving us enough credit.

 

[DinkumDog]

Not even! For a start Radley signed a 5 year deal in 2018 so there is no "going up by $200K" for his contract. And if you think we signed Flannagan for $500K, and increased a bench forward (Butcher) by $300K you are clearly not giving us enough credit.

Ask Brady, he’ll know the answer 100% ;-).

 

[Bulldogs09]

As if tetevano was on 300k

 

[B-Train]

Not even! For a start Radley signed a 5 year deal in 2018 so there is no "going up by $200K" for his contract. And if you think we signed Flannagan for $500K, and increased a bench forward (Butcher) by $300K you are clearly not giving us enough credit.

If you didn't upgrade those players to similar amounts or signed Flanagan for any less then that just confirms how much your mob would be cheating the cap.

Are you saying Butcher, Radley and Flanagan are on 300k? Other teams would easily pay 500-600k for each of those players. All three are likely future rep players and would all play 80 minutes at most other clubs.

Meanwhile your mob still has an 800k second rower like Chrichton on the bench. Most clubs outside the top 8 barely have one or two players on that much.

Other clubs throw huge offers at lesser players regularly. Look at the deals Douhehi, and the kid that the Titans signed got for instance. Other clubs are desperate and are throwing huge offers at players from those clubs too but they always seem to stay with the Roosters or Brisbane or Souths for half of their market value. You don't find that suspicious?

 

[B-Train]

As if tetevano was on 300k

I was being conservative for the sake of the argument. Although i think he's not great and doubt even the Roosters would pay someone so replacable more than 400k max.

 

[KambahOne]

If you didn't upgrade those players to similar amounts or signed Flanagan for any less then that just confirms how much your mob would be cheating the cap.

So astute signings means we're cheating the cap? Drawing a loooooooooooooooooooooooong bow there!

Are you saying Butcher, Radley and Flanagan are on 300k? Other teams would easily pay 500-600k for each of those players. All three are likely future rep players and would all play 80 minutes at most other clubs.

Again, seeing their potential "as likely rep players" we sign these players for less than other clubs would, but that's not smart?

Meanwhile your mob still has an 800k second rower like Chrichton on the bench. Most clubs outside the top 8 barely have one or two players on that much.

Of course clubs outside the 8 have to pay more for good players, that's the nature of the code, any code in fact. Lesser clubs have to buy success, how else are they going to get it? They've obviously tried to be successful with their current roster, but if they are outside the 8 odds are they don't see it as a success so they have to buy better players and the better players ask for more to go to a lower club, that's just how it works.

Other clubs throw huge offers at lesser players regularly. Look at the deals Douhehi, and the kid that the Titans signed got for instance. Other clubs are desperate and are throwing huge offers at players from those clubs too but they always seem to stay with the Roosters or Brisbane or Souths for half of their market value. You don't find that suspicious?

Not at all suspicious. Let's take lol@souffs for example. Perennial losers for decades, always bottom 2 for how many years? And what did they do to change that around? Brought better players. Then they brought the best players. Then they medically retired those best players and brought more best players.

And I have no doubt that when your club is back in the top 4 consistently and your club is buying players for less than clubs that sit in the bottom half of the 8, you will not consider your club as cheating the cap.​

 

[B-Train]

So astute signings means we're cheating the cap? Drawing a loooooooooooooooooooooooong bow there!



Again, seeing their potential "as likely rep players" we sign these players for less than other clubs would, but that's not smart?



Of course clubs outside the 8 have to pay more for good players, that's the nature of the code, any code in fact. Lesser clubs have to buy success, how else are they going to get it? They've obviously tried to be successful with their current roster, but if they are outside the 8 odds are they don't see it as a success so they have to buy better players and the better players ask for more to go to a lower club, that's just how it works.

Not at all suspicious. Let's take lol@souffs for example. Perennial losers for decades, always bottom 2 for how many years? And what did they do to change that around? Brought better players. Then they brought the best players. Then they medically retired those best players and brought more best players.

And I have no doubt that when your club is back in the top 4 consistently and your club is buying players for less than clubs that sit in the bottom half of the 8, you will not consider your club as cheating the cap.​

You're clearly an educated fan and I respect your opinion but your ignorance on this issue can't be denied.

The Roosters scout and develop players very well. They recruit better than anyone. They're well coached. There's no denying any of that. Credit where credit is due..

But historically all of the best teams cheat the cap. From Canberra in the 80s, to Brisbane and Manly in the 90s, to us in the early 2000s, to Melbourne after that and Souths, Brisbane and the Roosters the last decade.

Your club claims that they afford such a squad and can out recruit other clubs because of the advantage of the powerbrokers associated with the club and TPAs etc they provide.. But then they report only 30k of TPAs.. Less than every other club. How does that make sense?

You claiming that the Roosters manage their cap better than anyone and players stay for half their value and that no one else cheats the cap is all fairytale stuff and so far removed from reality it's not funny...

Why would Butcher, Flanagan, Radley etc all sign for half of what the "desperate clubs" you referred to offered and cost themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars to play off the bench at the Roosters as opposed to starting elsewhere for double the money?

If our club was successful again, and we built a dynasty like the Roosters then we'd almost certainly have to cheat the cap to build and maintain such a squad. And while I wouldn't complain, I certainly wouldn't pretend like there was no way on earth our team is over the cap like Roosters fans do.

 

[Kempsey Dog]

As Spoon mentioned also include Manu in those re-signings, but they would not account for the amount we freed up.

It's the illusion my friend. Get Cronk and Teddy to put you over said cap, then claim your under. Then once they go be like we have millions to spend now lol

 

[Pity Fool]

Jack Dog made the point in another thread about this situation when I said Nulla are looking to easy their cap and letting Morris go would benefit them that he wouldn't be on that much coin to make a real difference if they do let him go. And that view seems to be backed up by the fact they are not letting him go. And given we have released Cronk, Mitchell and Tetevano and signed no one, it would not be a stretch to think we could come up with enough coin to sign JMoz for one year.

You forgot to mention that you’ve re signed players like Manu, JWH, Butcher and Taukeiaho etc All rep players with the exception of Butcher. As a natural progression, once a team wins a premiership, or in the Roosters case two consecutive premierships, players, especially star players naturally ask for and rightly demand more $$$. The players mentioned above were heavily sought after and had massive contracts from other clubs thrown at them, therefor it would not have been cheap for the Roosters to retain them all. This is the problem for other teams supporters and why we keep scratching our heads and keep asking the question, how do teams like the Roosters, Storm after dominating the comp for the last decade not only retain, yet sign these top notch players so soon after winning multiple premierships when they should be loosing these star players? Isn’t that the reason the salary cap was introduced, to restore equalibrium and make it fair for all teams to win a comp, but no we have the same teams year in, year out win it which begs the question, how are they doing it when we all know what these players you retain market values are. Geez when the Dogs last won a comp, we were pillaged by the Roosters, Cowboys and Souths which left us bereft of star players and from memory were only left with three players from our premiership winning squad, Andrew Ryan, Luke Patten and Hazem El Mazri.

 

[KambahOne]

You're clearly an educated fan and I respect your opinion but your ignorance on this issue can't be denied.

The Roosters scout and develop players very well. They recruit better than anyone. They're well coached. There's no denying any of that. Credit where credit is due..

But historically all of the best teams cheat the cap. From Canberra in the 80s, to Brisbane and Manly in the 90s, to us in the early 2000s, to Melbourne after that and Souths, Brisbane and the Roosters the last decade.

The problem I have with this is your lumping systematic cap cheating (You guys in the early 2000's and Melb in the late 2000's) with clubs that get pinged for not declaring a particular aspect of one contract or for playing more lower grade players than they were allowed. I see these two groups as distinctly different. Even the Bronco Thoroughbreds, that group of Brisbane business people that "employed" Bronco players for years and paid them outside the cap was not technically rorting the cap as it sanctioned by the NRL at the time. Did it make for an unlevel playing field, absolutely, was it an unfair advantage, absolutely.

Granted the NRL has now closed down these types of loop holes, but that's all it was, and while I hate saying it, it was not technically rorting the cap.

Your club claims that they afford such a squad and can out recruit other clubs because of the advantage of the powerbrokers associated with the club and TPAs etc they provide.. But then they report only 30k of TPAs.. Less than every other club. How does that make sense?

We don't backend contracts, we don't pay overs and we don't rely on messy TPA's as many examples of clubs getting themselves into cap trouble is with TPA's. We have state of the art facilities including a nutritionist who prepares each players diet. We even had an MRI machine at our old stadium manned by a qualified radiologist so an injured Rooster player can off at half time, have his injury scanned and diagnosed by our medical staff and be in rehab before the game he played in ends.

You claiming that the Roosters manage their cap better than anyone and players stay for half their value and that no one else cheats the cap is all fairytale stuff and so far removed from reality it's not funny...

Why would Butcher, Flanagan, Radley etc all sign for half of what the "desperate clubs" you referred to offered and cost themselves hundreds of thousands of dollars to play off the bench at the Roosters as opposed to starting elsewhere for double the money?

I doubt any stay for "half" their value, but you can you put a price on winning and happiness? Would you rather a job getting an extra $50K a year and be miserable or have a job where you get by but your far happier at the end of the day?

If our club was successful again, and we built a dynasty like the Roosters then we'd almost certainly have to cheat the cap to build and maintain such a squad. And while I wouldn't complain, I certainly wouldn't pretend like there was no way on earth our team is over the cap like Roosters fans do.

Do we game the system, yes of course we do. Have we an advantage over other clubs in regards to how we are run, yes of course we do. But we were not always like this. We had to get better and we did and now we are reaping the benefits of that. And while we may get pinged for a minor breach of the cap, as we have been done in the past, that in no way equals the systematic cap rorting that some clubs have engaged in.

 

[B-Train]

The problem I have with this is your lumping systematic cap cheating (You guys in the early 2000's and Melb in the late 2000's) with clubs that get pinged for not declaring a particular aspect of one contract or for playing more lower grade players than they were allowed. I see these two groups as distinctly different. Even the Bronco Thoroughbreds, that group of Brisbane business people that "employed" Bronco players for years and paid them outside the cap was not technically rorting the cap as it sanctioned by the NRL at the time. Did it make for an unlevel playing field, absolutely, was it an unfair advantage, absolutely.

Granted the NRL has now closed down these types of loop holes, but that's all it was, and while I hate saying it, it was not technically rorting the cap.



We don't backend contracts, we don't pay overs and we don't rely on messy TPA's as many examples of clubs getting themselves into cap trouble is with TPA's. We have state of the art facilities including a nutritionist who prepares each players diet. We even had an MRI machine at our old stadium manned by a qualified radiologist so an injured Rooster player can off at half time, have his injury scanned and diagnosed by our medical staff and be in rehab before the game he played in ends.



I doubt any stay for "half" their value, but you can you put a price on winning and happiness? Would you rather a job getting an extra $50K a year and be miserable or have a job where you get by but your far happier at the end of the day?



Do we game the system, yes of course we do. Have we an advantage over other clubs in regards to how we are run, yes of course we do. But we were not always like this. We had to get better and we did and now we are reaping the benefits of that. And while we may get pinged for a minor breach of the cap, as we have been done in the past, that in no way equals the systematic cap rorting that some clubs have engaged in.

Like I said earlier, I respect your opinion and don't want to go back and forth over the same thing as neither of us will likely change our view.

I'm adamant that most teams cheat the cap and some do it more or better than others and are smarter about it than others. The salary cap and TPA system clearly isn't policed properly and when we have such a disparity in talent between the top 4 and bottom 8 clubs, then it's clear the cap isn't working.

If they scrapped TPAs and published everyone's salaries while actually properly and stringently policing the cap like they do in the NFL, NBA and MLB then this type of conjecture and speculation wouldn't happen anywhere near as often.

 

[KambahOne]

You forgot to mention that you’ve re signed players like Manu, JWH, Butcher and Taukeiaho etc All rep players with the exception of Butcher. As a natural progression, once a team wins a premiership, or in the Roosters case two consecutive premierships, players, especially star players naturally ask for and rightly demand more $$$.

All true. Or alternatively those winning teams lose high quality players they can no longer afford to keep in their teams, as we have done.

The players mentioned above were heavily sought after and had massive contracts from other clubs thrown at them, therefor it would not have been cheap for the Roosters to retain them all. This is the problem for other teams supporters and why we keep scratching our heads and keep asking the question, how do teams like the Roosters, Storm after dominating the comp for the last decade not only retain, yet sign these top notch players so soon after winning multiple premierships when they should be loosing these star players?

But we do lose star players. Since our GF win in 2013, we have lost the following players - Mitchell Pearce, James Maloney, SBW, Sam Moa, SKD, RTS, Fergo Binks, Michael Jennings, Cooper Cronk and Latrell Mitchell and they are only the star players I can think off. And in those 6 years we have signed Cronk and Tedesco as our marquee signings.

Isn’t that the reason the salary cap was introduced, to restore equalibrium and make it fair for all teams to win a comp, but no we have the same teams year in, year out win it which begs the question, how are they doing it when we all know what these players you retain market values are.

No you don't and neither do I. We can guess as do the journos, but none of us know how much each player is actually getting. And if anyone can remember the cap was actually brought in to stop clubs going broke. The equalizing of the talent was supposed to be a by-product of the cap, but it was never the prime reason for its introduction.

Geez when the Dogs last won a comp, we were pillaged by the Roosters, Cowboys and Souths which left us bereft of star players and from memory were only left with three players from our premiership winning squad, Andrew Ryan, Luke Patten and Hazem El Mazri.

I remember we tried to buy your winning culture by buying your players and yet how dumb was that? It didn't work and gave us more misery if I'm being honest as we were still viewed as the transit lounge. But all that changed, better for me, not so better for you. Sorry. Nah I'm not.

 

[KambahOne]

Like I said earlier, I respect your opinion and don't want to go back and forth over the same thing as neither of us will likely change our view.

I'm adamant that most teams cheat the cap and some do it more or better than others and are smarter about it than others. The salary cap and TPA system clearly isn't policed properly and when we have such a disparity in talent between the top 4 and bottom 8 clubs, then it's clear the cap isn't working.

If they scrapped TPAs and published everyone's salaries while actually properly and stringently policing the cap like they do in the NFL, NBA and MLB then this type of conjecture and speculation wouldn't happen anywhere near as often.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[TwinTurbo]

If they scrapped TPAs and published everyone's salaries while actually properly and stringently policing the cap like they do in the NFL, NBA and MLB then this type of conjecture and speculation wouldn't happen anywhere near as often.

So you're OK with having your salary published for all to see? When the beggars come knocking at your door, the sponging relatives or the thieves break in because they all know exactly how much money you have.

I don't think it is so much the clubs blocking players' contracts being published as the players association having the big issue with it. Although having every player's contract value published would make it easier for competing clubs to make better offers to them with absolute certainty. The downside is imagine the jealousy factor, "I'm a better player than him but he is being paid more" and we play in the same team side by side. It would just lead to every player asking for more money because they think or know that they are better than someone else getting paid more.

As for TPA's, I don't think it is remotely fair to say to anyone that they can't have 2 jobs, because that's exactly what TPA's are for. I see nothing but positives in players doing a bit of public speaking, motivation, commentary or other jobs plus playing football, as long as it doesn't affect their playing. After all they have to have a job of some kind to go to when they stop playing, they don't earn enough in their limited time as a player to sustain themselves or their family post football. Plus their playing days could stop instantly at any time with a career ending injury, that's why having a second job is important. Too many players suffer from metal issues when their playing days are over, yet another reason for having TPA's.


Go Dogs

 

[B-Train]

So you're OK with having your salary published for all to see? When the beggars come knocking at your door, the sponging relatives or the thieves break in because they all know exactly how much money you have.

I don't think it is so much the clubs blocking players' contracts being published as the players association having the big issue with it. Although having every player's contract value published would make it easier for competing clubs to make better offers to them with absolute certainty. The downside is imagine the jealousy factor, "I'm a better player than him but he is being paid more" and we play in the same team side by side. It would just lead to every player asking for more money because they think or know that they are better than someone else getting paid more.

Go Dogs

It's supposed to be a professional sport. Nearly every other major sporting competition across the world publish players salaries. When they sign for these large contracts, being under the spotlight and the scrutiny of the public comes with the territory.

High ranking officials of major companies have their salaries published. As do musicians, actors and other public figures.

Why are NRL players so precious that they should be treated differently? Most NRL clubs aren't privately owned and are public entities.

Players would already have to deal with knowing other players earning more or less. You think that info doesn't get leaked within the club or in the media as it is? Again, it's part of being a professional athlete.

All concealing the salary figures do is enable cheating and corruption.

 

[TwinTurbo]

It's supposed to be a professional sport. Nearly every other major sporting competition across the world publish players salaries. When they sign for these large salaries, being under the spotlight and the scrutiny of the public comes with the job description.
High ranking officials of major companies have their salaries published. As do musicians, actors and other public figures.
Why are NRL players so precious that they should be treated differently? Most NRL clubs aren't privately owned and are public entities.
All concealing the salary figures do is enable cheating and corruption.

I go back my original question, are you OK with everyone (friends, family, neighbours, relatives, charities, knowing, enemies and co workers) knowing your salary? Because that's what you are demanding of players.

Go Dogs