Covid-19 related debates (argue in this thread only)

[Hacky McAxe]

This is the problem with Science these days - everyone is hunting a headline. He's right and he's wrong. Its an arms race - all virus mutates to something that is resistant to whatever over time. Viral vaccines struggle to keep up with the mutations, so you need to be vaccinated all the time. Bacterial vaccines stay in front of the arms race due to slower replication to the point where it isn't a war usually. And it all due to the complexity of the organism. Bacteria mutations have more moving bits so adaption is slower.

The immune system has more adaptability than a single process step vaccine. Its why, despite being vaccinated, I've not been particularly enthused by it. If my work didn't depend on it - probably wouldn't have been vaccinated. Just my view - don't think anyones right or wrong on their view.

And here is where I think the anti-vax crew may have a valid argument. If vaccinated individuals are generating more mutations then the anti-vax and those mutations impact anti-vaxers more than vaxxers, is that on the vaxxers? Its a very interesting philosophical argument.

"if" is the question. As I pointed out above. Even though Montagnier stated that he believed vaccination lead to mutation, it was quickly shut down by the virologists who are actually researching it.

So it would be an interesting philosophical question, if it had a basis in reality.

But if it did then that would be great. Our plan to wipe out most of the population would work. We just need agent Zilla to keep convincing people to remain unvaccinated.

 

[Doogie]

"if" is the question. As I pointed out above. Even though Montagnier stated that he believed vaccination lead to mutation, it was quickly shut down by the virologists who are actually researching it.

So it would be an interesting philosophical question, if it had a basis in reality.

But if it did then that would be great. Our plan to wipe out most of the population would work. We just need agent Zilla to keep convincing people to remain unvaccinated.

Of course vaccination leads to mutation. Not being vaccinated leads to mutation too. Its a generalist reply to a sensationalist statement.

Now if they said that vaccines may lead to unexpected mutations - good. And then the counter argument is yes, but so does antivaxing. Thats whats a virus is. But we have evidence that vaccines do not promote more or even less (whatever they actually have) mutations than not being vaxed - better.

So it does have a basis in reality because its hard to test for. You would need a strong dataset, which you're not getting until you see a lot of mutations.

Our plan? I'm a lizard and you're a human. And we're wiping out most of humanity. Sure, our plan.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Of course vaccination leads to mutation. Not being vaccinated leads to mutation too. Its a generalist reply to a sensationalist statement.

Now if they said that vaccines may lead to unexpected mutations - good. And then the counter argument is yes, but so does antivaxing. Thats whats a virus is. But we have evidence that vaccines do not promote more or even less (whatever they actually have) mutations than not being vaxed - better.

So it does have a basis in reality because its hard to test for. You would need a strong dataset, which you're not getting until you see a lot of mutations.

Our plan? I'm a lizard and you're a human. And we're wiping out most of humanity. Sure, our plan.

Yep. But that's not what Montagnier was arguing. He was arguing that vaccination feeds the virus and directly causes mutation. He also argued that the vaccines do nothing to protect people.

And when asked about global vaccination his response was:

”It’s an enormous mistake, isn’t it? A scientific error as well as a medical error. It is an unacceptable mistake. The history books will show that because it is the vaccination that is creating the variants"

Basically his argument is that if we don't vaccinate then the virus won't mutate. Which makes no sense.

He followed this up by saying that in every country you can see deaths increase due to vaccination.

 

[Dogna88]

To add. As Valaki states. "Only those who dont know biology assume that mutations are all bad. Mutations occur that benefit the species"

 

[south of heaven]

To add. As Valaki states. "Only those who dont know biology assume that mutations are all bad. Mutations occur that benefit the species"

I hope so been waiting for lambpork to hit the supermarket shelves for a while

 

[Hacky McAxe]

I hope so been waiting for lambpork to hit the supermarket shelves for a while

View attachment 56822

I'm currently at a Halal cafe. I ordered beef bacon. Some would say that it's just beef imitating pork, but I like to think that they genetically spliced a cow and pig together.

Was hoping to find out, but they told me they ran out of beef bacon so they gave me extra beef sausage. Disappointing.

 

[belmore_utd]

It still pisses me off that if you had health conditions that affect your heart, the government did not care, you were just an egg that they were willing to crack to make the omelette.
You are not a person, just a statistic

 

[Hacky McAxe]

It still pisses me off that if you had health conditions that affect your heart, the government did not care, you were just an egg that they were willing to crack to make the omelette.
You are not a person, just a statistic

Wasn't that one of the points of vaccination? To prevent those with heart conditions from dying from the virus?

 

[belmore_utd]

Wasn't that one of the points of vaccination? To prevent those with heart conditions from dying from the virus?

But it also causes heart problems in age groups minimally affected by covid

 

[Hacky McAxe]

But it also causes heart problems in age groups minimally affected by covid

That's true. But only temporary heart problems fortunately. And very rarely.

But I thought you were talking about people with existing heart conditions when you said, "if you had health conditions that affect your heart"

 

[belmore_utd]

That's true. But only temporary heart problems fortunately. And very rarely.

But I thought you were talking about people with existing heart conditions when you said, "if you had health conditions that affect your heart"

So having sustained elevated heart rate that leaves scarring on your heart that never heals is only temporary?

Only an idiot would believe hospitals are reporting on all adverse reactions. They are mostly dismissive especially after they mandated the people most likely to follow up such reports out of the workforce.
They are dismissive especially after being silenced by Ahpra

It's like the good old days when managers seen whs as nothing but pests who work against the best interest of the company.

 

[DinkumDog]

It really is interesting how much people don't care about Covid any more. That includes me. It is still around though. The last few days in Australia there has been 50-80 Covid-19 deaths per day. Higher than what we were getting when everyone was at peak panic.

America is getting around 400 deaths per day and has been for the last few weeks. Tiny compared to their peak though.

I think most just don't care any more. People who were going to get vaccinated, are now vaccinated. People who don't want to get vaccinated are only putting themselves at risk. There will always be some unfortunate collateral (vaccinated people with weakened immune systems), and that sucks, but it's just part of life now. So we move on and hope for the best.

Spoke to a colleague in California this morning - their indoor mask mandate looks like it’s returning shortly in the face of risking hospitalisation and deaths. Sigh.

L.A. County on verge of indoor mask mandate as deaths, hospitalizations rise

If the county remains at the high community level for the next two weeks, a new masking order would be issued, with an effective date of July 29.

www.latimes.com

 

[Hacky McAxe]

So having sustained elevated heart rate that leaves scarring on your heart that never heals is only temporary?

Only an idiot would believe hospitals are reporting on all adverse reactions. They are mostly dismissive especially after they mandated the people most likely to follow up such reports out of the workforce.
They are dismissive especially after being silenced by Ahpra

It's like the good old days when managers seen whs as nothing but pests who work against the best interest of the company.

It's true that some have permanent scarring. Myocarditis isn't "scarring of the heart", but scarring of the heart can be caused by myocarditis. Myocarditis itself is inflammation of the heart which in most circumstances leaves no permanent damage especially in young people. Unfortunately it does provide scarring for some though.

The government can and has addressed the scarring caused by covid-19 vaccination. They are providing compensation funding. It's not ideal, but fortunately they are doing something. Unfortunately they can't do anything about the Myocarditis caused by Covid-19 or any other virus.

As for the hospitals not reporting, not sure about that. It's possible. But it's also tricky to narrow down which Myocarditis is caused by vaccination, which is caused by Covid, and which is caused by other viruses especially if it isn't reported until later. Unfortunately that's also when the key problems turn up with it. Myocarditis is very rare whether it's from vaccination or virus. But if it happens and you address it early (and treat it with anti-inflammatories like paracetamol) then there's usually no permanent damage.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Spoke to a colleague in California this morning - their indoor mask mandate looks like it’s returning shortly in the face of risking hospitalisation and deaths. Sigh.

L.A. County on verge of indoor mask mandate as deaths, hospitalizations rise

If the county remains at the high community level for the next two weeks, a new masking order would be issued, with an effective date of July 29.

www.latimes.com

I think Victoria will follow suit. Hospitals in NSW have started implementing restrictions due to the spike and there's discussion that there may be country wide government enforced hospital restrictions. I don't think we'll go back to masks for general public in NSW though. There would be riots if we do.

 

[The DoggFather]

It's true that some have permanent scarring. Myocarditis isn't "scarring of the heart", but scarring of the heart can be caused by myocarditis. Myocarditis itself is inflammation of the heart which in most circumstances leaves no permanent damage especially in young people. Unfortunately it does provide scarring for some though.

The government can and has addressed the scarring caused by covid-19 vaccination. They are providing compensation funding. It's not ideal, but fortunately they are doing something. Unfortunately they can't do anything about the Myocarditis caused by Covid-19 or any other virus.

As for the hospitals not reporting, not sure about that. It's possible. But it's also tricky to narrow down which Myocarditis is caused by vaccination, which is caused by Covid, and which is caused by other viruses especially if it isn't reported until later. Unfortunately that's also when the key problems turn up with it. Myocarditis is very rare whether it's from vaccination or virus. But if it happens and you address it early (and treat it with anti-inflammatories like paracetamol) then there's usually no permanent damage.

I got myocarditis and dilated cardiomyopathy from an airborne virus that hit my heart.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

I got myocarditis and dilated cardiomyopathy from an airborne virus that hit my heart.

Yep. It happens occasionally with many viruses unfortunately. It's a rare side effect but it does happen.

But I'm sure the anti-vaxxers will tell you that it was caused by the Covid-19 vaccine which travelled back in time and caused all the cases of Myocarditis that ever happened.

 

[The DoggFather]

Yep. It happens occasionally with many viruses unfortunately. It's a rare side effect but it does happen.

But I'm sure the anti-vaxxers will tell you that it was caused by the Covid-19 vaccine which travelled back in time and caused all the cases of Myocarditis that ever happened.

It was the ultra rare covid-12 lol

All jokes aside, when I first got sick, it was basically unheard of happening to a fit and healthy 30 year old. Being in and out of hospital since 2012, it became more common sadly, way before the vax.

They were trying to figure out if it was another form of "asbestos" induced disease as the common link was the patients were the majority of young men involved with building/construction.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Speaking of Myocarditis and Covid-19, this is from a study from earlier in the year that's pretty interesting:

Cardiac MRI sheds new light on vaccine-related myocarditis

Vaccine-associated myocarditis shows an injury pattern on cardiac MRI similar to other causes of myocarditis, but abnormalities are less severe.

www.cardiovascularbusiness.com

COVID-19 vaccine-associated myocarditis shows an injury pattern on cardiac magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) similar to other causes of myocarditis, but abnormalities are less severe. This is according to a new study published in the journal Radiology.

Inflammation of the heart muscle often occurs as a result of a viral infection, including COVID-19. It can cause arrhythmias and the heart's ability to pump blood and may leave behind lasting damage in the form of scarring of the myocardium. Myocarditis has also been reported as a rare complication of the messenger RNA (mRNA)-based COVID-19 vaccines....


...COVID vaccine-caused myocarditis is very mild
"We are a very high volume center, so based on our clinical practice, we have used MRI to look for myocarditis in this patient group, but the number of patients we find with myocardial edema and injury has been quite low," Hanneman explained. “These results tell us that myocarditis following COVID-19 vaccination tends to be relatively mild and resolves quickly."
First author and cardiac imaging fellow Matteo Fronza, MD, said that resolution of all symptoms and lack of adverse events at follow-up is reassuring. However, longer-term follow-up is needed.


COVID will cause greater damage to the heart than the vaccine
The researchers emphasized that COVID-19 illness can result in myocardial injury that is associated with adverse outcomes in hospitalized patients, and this consideration should be balanced against the low risk of vaccine-related complications. Myocarditis and pericarditis are commonly seen in patients with moderate to severe cases of COVI infection.
“Not only is myocarditis following COVID-19 vaccination very rare, it also tends to be less severe than myocarditis following SARS-CoV2 infection,” Hanneman said.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

It was the ultra rare covid-12 lol

All jokes aside, when I first got sick, it was basically unheard of happening to a fit and healthy 30 year old. Being in and out of hospital since 2012, it became more common sadly, way before the vax.

They were trying to figure out if it was another form of "asbestos" induced disease as the common link was the patients were the majority of young men involved with building/construction.

I think that's around the time that they discovered that silica was causing lung injury similar to asbestos. At the time they started putting in new safety regulations so now you have to wear a decent dust mask and use water when cutting concrete and other stuff that contains small dust/fibres. Even now many of the smaller construction companies don't have a clue about it. I have seen kids on sites cutting away with no protection while their boss watches on. If he's got high vis and a hardhat, he'll be right.

 

[DinkumDog]

the Covid-19 vaccine which travelled back in time

Eh?? Not only does it have a microchip, it has a flux capacitor too?? Damn you Bill Gates! .