Theory about Holland on bench.

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BankstownBulldog

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He has played in the halves a lot in his career, even in our reserves. He has a good kicking game, probably as good if not better than JMK.
Not that I watch much of our reserves games admittedly, but I have never seen Holland named to start in the halves in any game.
Also, other than a forced kick on the end of a failed short side raid, I haven’t seen him kick in general play either.
 

Raikkonen

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And a pretty damn good one at that. Would not be surprised if he ends up in a hooking role one day. He possesses all the qualities. Very similar to Damien Cook
I think we're watching different players.
 

Micko1979

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Not that I watch much of our reserves games admittedly, but I have never seen Holland named to start in the halves in any game.
Also, other than a forced kick on the end of a failed short side raid, I haven’t seen him kick in general play either.
Maybe I'm mistaken but I was sure I have seen him named in the halves last year. He certainly has covered that position in games in the past.

Either way after watching Lewis again today I think most will agree he is far behind Zholland at this point of his career. So Pay has few other options if he has to cover the entire backline.
 

wendog33

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If Cleeland and Frawley heading off, why not give Lewis the 7 back before he leaves to see if he can show a bit more in his natural position.
 

speedy2460

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Have an associate in Townsville who tells me that Josh Cleeland is in the running for a start with the Cowboys.
 

Alan79

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So let’s put a bench full of hard workers we might as well carry 2 wingers a centre and an extra fullback cause they worked so hard in the offseason.
I tend to assume that if experienced players like the Morris brothers think that someone is doing well they've probably got a better point of view than we do. I'm going to assume you haven't spent ten or fifteen years working alongside other professional athletes. It's entirely possible that they are better judges of what constitutes a good footballer than people who specialize in coaching from the comfort of their lounge at home. Holland hasn't put a foot wrong this year. I'd guess most of your opinions are based on last seasons performances, and a lot of fans thought Holland was a pretty good stop gap last year. A lot also thought he was shit, but the fact of the matter is that he's been picked by a coach that was popularly acclaimed as the solution to all the teams woes last year. Judge him on what he produces when he gets opportunities rather than on opinions you formed last year when the whole team was below their best.

You blokes are kidding if you think holland can play in the halves.

Has he got a kicking game?

You could name Klemmer at 7 but that doesn’t mean he would do a sufficient job.

Holland has been playing his role well and can cover 1-5 no worries. That’s about it.
Holland wouldn't be the first player to have had a stint in our halves that had no kicking game. Kris Keating spent a year there based on his support play in my opinion. I think the main point in bringing Holland in was to rest Lichaa.
 

Z-Dizzle

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Like I said maybe I am mistaken but I'm sure he was named in the halves in reserve grade last year at some point.
In his debut season before we signed him he played both centre and 5/8 at the Knights.
Has he got a kicking game?
Holland actually has arguably got a better short kicking game than Mbye or JMK, he uses it more in the juniors than First Grade though. Same problem as the others in that he does lack a long kicking game, or if he has one he never uses it. Although JMK doesn't seem to do much kicking in the team anyway with Mbye taking most of the kicks.

Not that I watch much of our reserves games admittedly, but I have never seen Holland named to start in the halves in any game.
Also, other than a forced kick on the end of a failed short side raid, I haven’t seen him kick in general play either.
Nah Holland has been in the fullback role this season in reserves when he has played, but they are using the same structure as the first grade team in that the fullback is running up into the line as the 5/8 on the final plays with the actual 5/8 standing wider. He kicked a few times last season in First Grade when the team stupidly gave a winger or centre the ball on the 5th 30 metres out.

The reason Holland is in the team is he is a solid defender than can capably slot into 1-6 and we don't lose much. He isn't a superstar by any means but he won't make any fuck ups and he's a smart player with good positioning. It allows Pay to slot JMK into Hooker when Lichaa is gassed, it gives us cover for Mbye if Pay wants him to shift to 5/8, it gives us cover when the injury prone Morris brothers go down. Holland and Mbye are probably the only 2 players in the squad with that kind of versatility, although I could see JMK filling that kind of role in the future as well. Do I agree we need him on the bench while Tolman is out? Probably not. I do however understand the decision over Lewis, Olive, Cleeland etc. though who are more specialists in their positions. Lewis is getting some more experience in the centres at the moment and may get some time at fullback if Pay wants him to train at that utility role. I've been pretty critical of Pay's decisions since we signed him, this one I actually understand though.
 

Big M

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In his debut season before we signed him he played both centre and 5/8 at the Knights.

Holland actually has arguably got a better short kicking game than Mbye or JMK, he uses it more in the juniors than First Grade though. Same problem as the others in that he does lack a long kicking game, or if he has one he never uses it. Although JMK doesn't seem to do much kicking in the team anyway with Mbye taking most of the kicks.


Nah Holland has been in the fullback role this season in reserves when he has played, but they are using the same structure as the first grade team in that the fullback is running up into the line as the 5/8 on the final plays with the actual 5/8 standing wider. He kicked a few times last season in First Grade when the team stupidly gave a winger or centre the ball on the 5th 30 metres out.

The reason Holland is in the team is he is a solid defender than can capably slot into 1-6 and we don't lose much. He isn't a superstar by any means but he won't make any fuck ups and he's a smart player with good positioning. It allows Pay to slot JMK into Hooker when Lichaa is gassed, it gives us cover for Mbye if Pay wants him to shift to 5/8, it gives us cover when the injury prone Morris brothers go down. Holland and Mbye are probably the only 2 players in the squad with that kind of versatility, although I could see JMK filling that kind of role in the future as well. Do I agree we need him on the bench while Tolman is out? Probably not. I do however understand the decision over Lewis, Olive, Cleeland etc. though who are more specialists in their positions. Lewis is getting some more experience in the centres at the moment and may get some time at fullback if Pay wants him to train at that utility role. I've been pretty critical of Pay's decisions since we signed him, this one I actually understand though.
Played 7 until he moved to Newcastle,Country juniors rep at 7 as well..Obviously can play and has played in the halves,I know it’s not NRL but shows he has experience.
 

doggieaaron

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Renouf t has to be on the bench for either holland or fine
 

Deathspell

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Many of us tonight were left scrtaching their head about why Holland was on the bench, and more importantly why he came in playing a roaming halves role and pushing JMK to hooker.

I started thinking about what the point of that exercise could be, and then realised that Lewis is being played in the same positions (per se).

Frawley and Cleeland will be gone at years end, and I'm wondering if perhaps they are moving Lewis around in NSW Cup to see if he handles playing in the backline, as we already know he can play in the halves.

IF that idea is successful, he could swap with Holland for bench utility role (don't get me wrong Holland was good tonight in his role), but I think Lewis could add more spark to that utility role.

JMK played 80 minutes tonight across halves and hooker role.

6. JMK
7. Foran
9. Lichaa

After 60 odd Lichaa comes off, Lewis/Holland/Brown comes on, and either JMK stays in halves, or moves to hooker with a change in the halves.

Could just be what the idea is.
Holland is not an impact player,he's there to cover 1-7,as a few have already stated.
Sometimes to change the momentum of the game you don't always need an impact bench player.
I believe Pay's strategy was to bring into the game a fresh player that can maintain a defensive composure against 2nd rowers like Hess,who aggressively excels against weary halves in the last 20 minutes of the game.He also wanted to use an existing on field player to change the point of attack.

Although Lichaa's dummy half running has improved,it has been clearly exposed by Souths and Canberra.He often stifles the point of attack and dies with the ball,this becomes more evident when he gets tired in the last quarter.
In the 2nd half,whenever Lichaa was at dummy half,the Cows were intentionally exposing their left side of the ruck,baiting Lichaa to run or direct play at it,as the lock quickly closed the gap.This trap started to nullify our point of attack,jamming us inside our own half,leaving the predictable up field kick as our only escape.The Cows started playing percentage football and forcing errors.I'm sure Pay recognized and knew about this problem from our 5 previous games.He also has knowledge of this tactic,as it was was used successfully by Bellamy,between 2005-2009 with Dallas Johnson at lock.
Besides winning the field position,the Cows other objective was to keep the ball from spreading to our strong running left edge.Hemming Lichaa in and/or forcing him to push the ball towards a flat right edge and JJ,who is overshadowed by RFM in all attacking stats (runs:12.5 to 10.3; ave.running meters:108 to 74; line breaks: 0.5 to 0.3; tackle busts: 2.7 to 1.3; offloads: 1.8 to 0.5 and effective offloads 1.5 to 0.2).

Lichaa's best work comes from his energy in defense,something that is imperative in first 60 minutes.I think Des was CORRECT in using Lichaa mainly for his defense,but ERRED by not allowing him any freedom in attack,thus he became too predictable.It wasn't easy to acknowledge this and I deserve to give myself an uppercut,so I ask the kennel to please afford me some empathy.

JMK reads the opposition's defensive structures better,is more creative and can crisply pass on both sides of the ruck.With him at hooker,our point of attack returned and we started seeing the ball pushed to our left edge,forcing the Cows to spread their tight defense.It also allowed our middle forwards to bend the line,push forward and provide a platform for Foran.The Cows tried to counter this by trying to win the ruck,forcing slow play the balls.Unfortunately the ref lacked consistency in this facet of play and wasn't penalizing the Cows enough for this infringement.

Besides his intended defensive duties the new 5/8 (in this case Holland) becomes a complete foil for the halfback in attack.He roams and follows the play the ball closely,injecting himself when possible,making sure he promotes 2nd phase plays or quickly throws inside passes to his half (Foran). Something Morgan and Thurston,Munster/Green and Cronk were brilliant at.

The Achilles heal to this strategy arises when there is a turnover.Until the 5/8 recovers his defensive position in the line,the lock or the fullback (has to communicate with the winger) must move quickly and plug the 5/8 position.The Bulldogs tried a different recovery tactic,with the edge moving and standing one in,exposing the wing position.At times this tactic didn't work as intended because our left edge's strength is in rushing the attack as opposed to sliding inside,something I'm sure Pay will rectify.

Strategies like this is what unsettles a team,causing them to lose composure and discipline. I'm sure students of the game were pleased with Pay's strategy.It's encouraging to finally see that he's got the ability to turn the momentum of the game,which at that stage was turning against us.He avoided another Souths disaster.
 
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Big M

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Holland is not an impact player,he's there to cover 1-7,as a few have already stated.
Sometimes to change the momentum of the game you don't always need an impact bench player.
I believe Pay's strategy was to bring into the game a fresh player that can maintain a defensive composure against 2nd rowers like Hess,who aggressively excels against weary halves in the last 20 minutes of the game.He also wanted to use an existing on field player to change the point of attack.

Although Lichaa's dummy half running has improved,it has been clearly exposed by Souths and Canberra.He often stifles the point of attack and dies with the ball,this becomes more evident when he gets tired in the last quarter.
In the 2nd half,whenever Lichaa was at dummy half,the Cows were intentionally exposing their left side of the ruck,baiting Lichaa to run or direct play at it,as the lock quickly closed the gap.This trap started to nullify our point of attack,jamming us inside our own half,leaving the predictable up field kick as our only escape.The Cows started playing percentage football and forcing errors.I'm sure Pay recognized and knew about this problem from our 5 previous games.He also has knowledge of this tactic,as it was was used successfully by Bellamy,between 2005-2009 with Dallas Johnson at lock.
Besides winning the field position,the Cows other objective was to keep the ball from spreading to our strong running left edge.Hemming Lichaa in and/or forcing him to push the ball towards a flat right edge and JJ,who is overshadowed by RFM in all attacking stats (runs:12.5 to 10.3; ave.running meters:108 to 74; line breaks: 0.5 to 0.3; tackle busts: 2.7 to 1.3; offloads: 1.8 to 0.5 and effective offloads 1.5 to 0.2).

Lichaa's best work comes from his energy in defense,something that is imperative in first 60 minutes.I think Des was CORRECT in using Lichaa mainly for his defense,but ERRED by not allowing him any freedom in attack,thus he became too predictable.It wasn't easy to acknowledge this and I deserve to give myself an uppercut,so I ask the kennel to please afford me some empathy.

JMK reads the opposition's defensive structures better,is more creative and can crisply pass on both sides of the ruck.With him at hooker,our point of attack returned and we started seeing the ball pushed to our left edge,forcing the Cows to spread their tight defense.It also allowed our middle forwards to bend the line,push forward and provide a platform for Foran.The Cows tried to counter this by trying to win the ruck,forcing slow play the balls.Unfortunately the ref lacked consistency in this facet of play and wasn't penalizing the Cows enough for this infringement.

Besides his intended defensive duties the new 5/8 (in this case Holland) becomes a complete foil for the halfback in attack.He roams and follows the play the ball closely,injecting himself when possible,making sure he promots 2nd phase plays or quickly throws inside passes to his half (Foran). Something Morgan and Thurston,Munster/Green and Cronk were brilliant at.

The Achilles heal to this strategy arises when there is a turnover.Until the 5/8 recovers his defensive position in the line,the lock or the fullback (has to communicate with the winger) must move quickly and plug the 5/8 position.The Bulldogs tried a different recovery tactic,with the edge moving and standing one in,exposing the wing position.At times this tactic didn't work as intended because our left edge's strength is in rushing the attack as opposed to sliding inside,something I'm sure Pay will rectify.

Strategies like this is what unsettles a team,causing them to lose composure and discipline. I'm sure students of the game were pleased with Pay's strategy.It's encouraging to finally see that he's got the ability to turn the momentum of the game,which at that stage was turning against us.He avoided another Souths disaster.
This should be compulsive reading lol,very knowledgeable
 

Micko1979

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Holland is not an impact player,he's there to cover 1-7,as a few have already stated.
Sometimes to change the momentum of the game you don't always need an impact bench player.
I believe Pay's strategy was to bring into the game a fresh player that can maintain a defensive composure against 2nd rowers like Hess,who aggressively excels against weary halves in the last 20 minutes of the game.He also wanted to use an existing on field player to change the point of attack.

Although Lichaa's dummy half running has improved,it has been clearly exposed by Souths and Canberra.He often stifles the point of attack and dies with the ball,this becomes more evident when he gets tired in the last quarter.
In the 2nd half,whenever Lichaa was at dummy half,the Cows were intentionally exposing their left side of the ruck,baiting Lichaa to run or direct play at it,as the lock quickly closed the gap.This trap started to nullify our point of attack,jamming us inside our own half,leaving the predictable up field kick as our only escape.The Cows started playing percentage football and forcing errors.I'm sure Pay recognized and knew about this problem from our 5 previous games.He also has knowledge of this tactic,as it was was used successfully by Bellamy,between 2005-2009 with Dallas Johnson at lock.
Besides winning the field position,the Cows other objective was to keep the ball from spreading to our strong running left edge.Hemming Lichaa in and/or forcing him to push the ball towards a flat right edge and JJ,who is overshadowed by RFM in all attacking stats (runs:12.5 to 10.3; ave.running meters:108 to 74; line breaks: 0.5 to 0.3; tackle busts: 2.7 to 1.3; offloads: 1.8 to 0.5 and effective offloads 1.5 to 0.2).

Lichaa's best work comes from his energy in defense,something that is imperative in first 60 minutes.I think Des was CORRECT in using Lichaa mainly for his defense,but ERRED by not allowing him any freedom in attack,thus he became too predictable.It wasn't easy to acknowledge this and I deserve to give myself an uppercut,so I ask the kennel to please afford me some empathy.

JMK reads the opposition's defensive structures better,is more creative and can crisply pass on both sides of the ruck.With him at hooker,our point of attack returned and we started seeing the ball pushed to our left edge,forcing the Cows to spread their tight defense.It also allowed our middle forwards to bend the line,push forward and provide a platform for Foran.The Cows tried to counter this by trying to win the ruck,forcing slow play the balls.Unfortunately the ref lacked consistency in this facet of play and wasn't penalizing the Cows enough for this infringement.

Besides his intended defensive duties the new 5/8 (in this case Holland) becomes a complete foil for the halfback in attack.He roams and follows the play the ball closely,injecting himself when possible,making sure he promots 2nd phase plays or quickly throws inside passes to his half (Foran). Something Morgan and Thurston,Munster/Green and Cronk were brilliant at.

The Achilles heal to this strategy arises when there is a turnover.Until the 5/8 recovers his defensive position in the line,the lock or the fullback (has to communicate with the winger) must move quickly and plug the 5/8 position.The Bulldogs tried a different recovery tactic,with the edge moving and standing one in,exposing the wing position.At times this tactic didn't work as intended because our left edge's strength is in rushing the attack as opposed to sliding inside,something I'm sure Pay will rectify.

Strategies like this is what unsettles a team,causing them to lose composure and discipline. I'm sure students of the game were pleased with Pay's strategy.It's encouraging to finally see that he's got the ability to turn the momentum of the game,which at that stage was turning against us.He avoided another Souths disaster.
A brilliant analysis of the game and Pay evolving as a coach.

May I ask, what specific player type do you think we need to buy that aren't coming through the juniors? And what does Dean need to improve on to bring future success?
 
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