Theory about Holland on bench.

[Deathspell]

This should be compulsive reading lol,very knowledgeable

Thank you.
Win or lose I study coaches tactics and strategies because it's the only way I can judge if a coach is creative,irrespective of the players execution which can make a coach look bad.
I find rugby league tactics and chess keep me sharp when I represent my clients in court.

 

[Bob dog]

Pay just wants a utility on the bench, we have plenty of size in our pack despite losing Kas and Graham.

 

[dogwhisperer]

Obviously it’s not his fault lol

That’s all we were saying mate.

 

[Phalangist]

That’s all we were saying mate.

Oh okay so we can still question why he is on the bench? We have a valid point?

 

[dogwhisperer]

Holland is not an impact player,he's there to cover 1-7,as a few have already stated.
Sometimes to change the momentum of the game you don't always need an impact bench player.
I believe Pay's strategy was to bring into the game a fresh player that can maintain a defensive composure against 2nd rowers like Hess,who aggressively excels against weary halves in the last 20 minutes of the game.He also wanted to use an existing on field player to change the point of attack.

Although Lichaa's dummy half running has improved,it has been clearly exposed by Souths and Canberra.He often stifles the point of attack and dies with the ball,this becomes more evident when he gets tired in the last quarter.
In the 2nd half,whenever Lichaa was at dummy half,the Cows were intentionally exposing their left side of the ruck,baiting Lichaa to run or direct play at it,as the lock quickly closed the gap.This trap started to nullify our point of attack,jamming us inside our own half,leaving the predictable up field kick as our only escape.The Cows started playing percentage football and forcing errors.I'm sure Pay recognized and knew about this problem from our 5 previous games.He also has knowledge of this tactic,as it was was used successfully by Bellamy,between 2005-2009 with Dallas Johnson at lock.
Besides winning the field position,the Cows other objective was to keep the ball from spreading to our strong running left edge.Hemming Lichaa in and/or forcing him to push the ball towards a flat right edge and JJ,who is overshadowed by RFM in all attacking stats (runs:12.5 to 10.3; ave.running meters:108 to 74; line breaks: 0.5 to 0.3; tackle busts: 2.7 to 1.3; offloads: 1.8 to 0.5 and effective offloads 1.5 to 0.2).

Lichaa's best work comes from his energy in defense,something that is imperative in first 60 minutes.I think Des was CORRECT in using Lichaa mainly for his defense,but ERRED by not allowing him any freedom in attack,thus he became too predictable.It wasn't easy to acknowledge this and I deserve to give myself an uppercut,so I ask the kennel to please afford me some empathy.

JMK reads the opposition's defensive structures better,is more creative and can crisply pass on both sides of the ruck.With him at hooker,our point of attack returned and we started seeing the ball pushed to our left edge,forcing the Cows to spread their tight defense.It also allowed our middle forwards to bend the line,push forward and provide a platform for Foran.The Cows tried to counter this by trying to win the ruck,forcing slow play the balls.Unfortunately the ref lacked consistency in this facet of play and wasn't penalizing the Cows enough for this infringement.

Besides his intended defensive duties the new 5/8 (in this case Holland) becomes a complete foil for the halfback in attack.He roams and follows the play the ball closely,injecting himself when possible,making sure he promots 2nd phase plays or quickly throws inside passes to his half (Foran). Something Morgan and Thurston,Munster/Green and Cronk were brilliant at.

The Achilles heal to this strategy arises when there is a turnover.Until the 5/8 recovers his defensive position in the line,the lock or the fullback (has to communicate with the winger) must move quickly and plug the 5/8 position.The Bulldogs tried a different recovery tactic,with the edge moving and standing one in,exposing the wing position.At times this tactic didn't work as intended because our left edge's strength is in rushing the attack as opposed to sliding inside,something I'm sure Pay will rectify.

Strategies like this is what unsettles a team,causing them to lose composure and discipline. I'm sure students of the game were pleased with Pay's strategy.It's encouraging to finally see that he's got the ability to turn the momentum of the game,which at that stage was turning against us.He avoided another Souths disaster.

I’m not sure if you’re over thinking this and trying to read what Pay was trying to do. There’s a lot of info in your analysis. Maybe you’re right and maybe it’s just me that needs to read what you wrote a few times for it to sink in lol. I’ll give it another shot at reading it lol.

But there’s one thing for sure. Pay is definitely a thinker and is willing to make calculative decisions or risks necessary to improve our game. And that’s all I can ask for at the moment. At least he’s trying things.

I could be wrong, time will tell, but I do think he’s got what it takes to be a very good first grade coach.

 

[albatross]

Holland is not an impact player,he's there to cover 1-7,as a few have already stated.
Sometimes to change the momentum of the game you don't always need an impact bench player.
I believe Pay's strategy was to bring into the game a fresh player that can maintain a defensive composure against 2nd rowers like Hess,who aggressively excels against weary halves in the last 20 minutes of the game.He also wanted to use an existing on field player to change the point of attack.

Although Lichaa's dummy half running has improved,it has been clearly exposed by Souths and Canberra.He often stifles the point of attack and dies with the ball,this becomes more evident when he gets tired in the last quarter.
In the 2nd half,whenever Lichaa was at dummy half,the Cows were intentionally exposing their left side of the ruck,baiting Lichaa to run or direct play at it,as the lock quickly closed the gap.This trap started to nullify our point of attack,jamming us inside our own half,leaving the predictable up field kick as our only escape.The Cows started playing percentage football and forcing errors.I'm sure Pay recognized and knew about this problem from our 5 previous games.He also has knowledge of this tactic,as it was was used successfully by Bellamy,between 2005-2009 with Dallas Johnson at lock.
Besides winning the field position,the Cows other objective was to keep the ball from spreading to our strong running left edge.Hemming Lichaa in and/or forcing him to push the ball towards a flat right edge and JJ,who is overshadowed by RFM in all attacking stats (runs:12.5 to 10.3; ave.running meters:108 to 74; line breaks: 0.5 to 0.3; tackle busts: 2.7 to 1.3; offloads: 1.8 to 0.5 and effective offloads 1.5 to 0.2).

Lichaa's best work comes from his energy in defense,something that is imperative in first 60 minutes.I think Des was CORRECT in using Lichaa mainly for his defense,but ERRED by not allowing him any freedom in attack,thus he became too predictable.It wasn't easy to acknowledge this and I deserve to give myself an uppercut,so I ask the kennel to please afford me some empathy.

JMK reads the opposition's defensive structures better,is more creative and can crisply pass on both sides of the ruck.With him at hooker,our point of attack returned and we started seeing the ball pushed to our left edge,forcing the Cows to spread their tight defense.It also allowed our middle forwards to bend the line,push forward and provide a platform for Foran.The Cows tried to counter this by trying to win the ruck,forcing slow play the balls.Unfortunately the ref lacked consistency in this facet of play and wasn't penalizing the Cows enough for this infringement.

Besides his intended defensive duties the new 5/8 (in this case Holland) becomes a complete foil for the halfback in attack.He roams and follows the play the ball closely,injecting himself when possible,making sure he promots 2nd phase plays or quickly throws inside passes to his half (Foran). Something Morgan and Thurston,Munster/Green and Cronk were brilliant at.

The Achilles heal to this strategy arises when there is a turnover.Until the 5/8 recovers his defensive position in the line,the lock or the fullback (has to communicate with the winger) must move quickly and plug the 5/8 position.The Bulldogs tried a different recovery tactic,with the edge moving and standing one in,exposing the wing position.At times this tactic didn't work as intended because our left edge's strength is in rushing the attack as opposed to sliding inside,something I'm sure Pay will rectify.

Strategies like this is what unsettles a team,causing them to lose composure and discipline. I'm sure students of the game were pleased with Pay's strategy.It's encouraging to finally see that he's got the ability to turn the momentum of the game,which at that stage was turning against us.He avoided another Souths disaster.

I reckon your analysis of Lichaa is spot on. We still need him to tackle heaps as well as run so taking him off and shifting JMK changes it up nicely. Holland is a bit bigger than most utilities and looks fit, so that might be Pay's angle with the bench utility, but I think he is there because of the Moz brothers fitness as well. Brown obviously isn't impressing Pay at the moment either.

I rate Holland and am fine with the strategy for now, given the versatility of other backs. He's made good contributions the last 2 weeks.

 

[kaluah8123]

Thurston
Morgan
Martin
Carney apparently

He has better chance playing for the Chicago bulls.

Post just made my night... cheers.

 

[KLil]

Being shopped around... =)

 

[dogwhisperer]

Oh okay so we can still question why he is on the bench? We have a valid point?

Don’t know why you’re asking me. You can question whatever you want.

 

[Nasheed]

why so much anti Holland shit?

The guy consistently does whats asked of him.

He gets moved around 8 positions and delivers everytime. He also kicks goals at 80%

I find the Kennel has sheep mentality in the extreme. Holland has one off game in 2016 and you ***** condemn him for life despite him literally being a matchwinner on so many occassions.

 

[Deathspell]

I’m not sure if you’re over thinking this and trying to read what Pay was trying to do. There’s a lot of info in your analysis. Maybe you’re right and maybe it’s just me that needs to read what you wrote a few times for it to sink in lol. I’ll give it another shot at reading it lol.

But there’s one thing for sure. Pay is definitely a thinker and is willing to make calculative decisions or risks necessary to improve our game. And that’s all I can ask for at the moment. At least he’s trying things.

I could be wrong, time will tell, but I do think he’s got what it takes to be a very good first grade coach.

Bro I'm not over thinking or trying to read what Pay did.It is a old calculated strategy that is subtle,precise and difficult to analyse, infact in the past it won Canberra,Easts and Storm grand finals.

The strategy has it's origins in Canberra,where it was first used by Tim Sheens in 1991 when the interchange rule was introduced.
Ricky Stuart (who played under Tim Sheens at Canberra) reintroduced it in the early 2000 when he coached Easts.
Craig Bellamy (who also played under Tim Sheens at Canberra) used it with great success in mid to late 2000 at the Storm,until the maximum number of interchanges was reduced from 12 to 10.
At a guess I'd say Dean Pay picked it up at Canberra when he was a defensive coach under Ricky Stuart and slowly adapted it for specific situations.
We would have probably limped in or lost the game like we did against Penrith and Souths respectively,if Pay didn't have it set up beforehand.

This strategy is in fact a defensive variation of when halves and centers lined up on same side.It will undoubtedly continue to evolve to counter the new attacking formations,we are starting to see this year.Where the left center moves to dummy half and the whole spine shifts the ball from a worked side (say left),quickly to the other side (right),straight to the wing, by passing the right center/2nd rower who only act as decoys.
The days of dedicated edge combination plays are slowly coming to an end.Due to their roaster,some teams that dominated last year are finding it hard to evolve and are still only maintaining the old structure without variation.

As far as Pay making a good coach is concerned,it's not the players execution that will inform us,but the strategies he employs against various teams and situations.Players will adapt if the strategies are simple,don't outstrip their capabilities and involve on field communication.Rep teams are a testament to this.
This makes development,retention and signing of players a bit more tricky for the next few years as I will explain in my post reply to Micko1979 in this thread.

Bro the truth is I study this game,which I've been passionate about for nearly 50 years.I read a lot of books,correspond with knowledgeable critics of the game,take notes (got some cataloged going back to 1979) and do a lot of research.Like chess I find it keeps me sharp when I represent my clients in court.

 

[Nasheed]

When Holland came on, we win 25-10.

Whats that say.

Whens the last time we have done that?

And what has been the only difference?

 

[dogwhisperer]

Bro I'm not over thinking or trying to read what Pay did.It is a old calculated strategy that is subtle,precise and difficult to analyse, infact in the past it won Canberra,Easts and Storm grand finals.

The strategy has it's origins in Canberra,where it was first used by Tim Sheens in 1991 when the interchange rule was introduced.
Ricky Stuart (who played under Tim Sheens at Canberra) reintroduced it in the early 2000 when he coached Easts.
Craig Bellamy (who also played under Tim Sheens at Canberra) used it with great success in mid to late 2000 at the Storm,until the maximum number of interchanges was reduced from 12 to 10.
At a guess I'd say Dean Pay picked it up at Canberra when he was a defensive coach under Ricky Stuart and slowly adapted it for specific situations.
We would have probably limped in or lost the game like we did against Penrith and Souths respectively,if Pay didn't have it set up beforehand.

This strategy is in fact a defensive variation of when halves and centers lined up on same side.It will undoubtedly continue to evolve to counter the new attacking formations,we are starting to see this year.Where the left center moves to dummy half and the whole spine shifts the ball from a worked side (say left),quickly to the other side (right),straight to the wing, by passing the right center/2nd rower who only act as decoys.
The days of dedicated edge combination plays are slowly coming to an end.Due to their roaster,some teams that dominated last year are finding it hard to evolve and are still only maintaining the old structure without variation.

As far as Pay making a good coach is concerned,it's not the players execution that will inform us,but the strategies he employs against various teams and situations.Players will adapt if the strategies are simple,don't outstrip their capabilities and involve on field communication.Rep teams are a testament to this.
This makes development,retention and signing of players a bit more tricky for the next few years as I will explain in my post reply to Micko1979 in this thread.

Bro the truth is I study this game,which I've been passionate about for nearly 50 years.I read a lot of books,correspond with knowledgeable critics of the game,take notes (got some cataloged going back to 1979) and do a lot of research.Like chess I find it keeps me sharp when I represent my clients in court.

Hahaha, that’s brilliant! The nuts and bolts of Rugby league. An in depth analysis.

 

[Deathspell]

I reckon your analysis of Lichaa is spot on. We still need him to tackle heaps as well as run so taking him off and shifting JMK changes it up nicely. Holland is a bit bigger than most utilities and looks fit, so that might be Pay's angle with the bench utility, but I think he is there because of the Moz brothers fitness as well. Brown obviously isn't impressing Pay at the moment either.

I rate Holland and am fine with the strategy for now, given the versatility of other backs. He's made good contributions the last 2 weeks.

Due to the way the interchange has been structured it's hard to plan for injuries but since Holland can cover 1-7,it's a huge bonus.
Unless your dept is very poor or you got no alternative,a good coach should never select a player unless he's fit.He runs the risk of losing him for lengthy periods and if the player is of high value he will undervalue the salary cap.
Some 2nd rowers play in selective impact spurts,slowly taxing their targeted half to ultimately dominate him in last quarter.By bringing in a fresh good defensive back that can play 5/8 you virtually nullify and reduce his intended impact.
If you want to maintain the original attacking structure you can always employ another player to dummy half (Brisbane did this with Sam Thaiday) and restore your 5/8 to his original position.

 

[Deathspell]

QUOTE="Nasheed, post: 3319968, member: 23436"]When Holland came on, we win 25-10.

Whats that say.

Whens the last time we have done that?

And what has been the only difference?[/QUOTE]
FFS bro,there are another 16 other players and a coach in the team,or are you that one eyed?
Holland was given specific tasks in attack.Become a complete foil for the halfback,roam and follow the play the ball closely,inject himself when possible and make sure he promotes 2nd phase plays or quickly throw inside passes to his half (Foran).
He did his specific tasks in attack well,granted.But would have been in trouble if it wasn't for the brilliant defensive work by Josh Morris.Who covered the exposed inside gaps,that appeared in 'roaming' Holland's position,when he failed to recover into the defensive line in time.A few times Josh Morris was left second guessing him,which led to a try.
So please don't carry on like he's the next Terry Lamb!

 

[Nate DAWG]

Due to the way the interchange has been structured it's hard to plan for injuries but since Holland can cover 1-7,it's a huge bonus.
Unless your dept is very poor or you got no alternative,a good coach should never select a player unless he's fit.He runs the risk of losing him for lengthy periods and if the player is of high value he will undervalue the salary cap.
Some 2nd rowers play in selective impact spurts,slowly taxing their targeted half to ultimately dominate him in last quarter.By bringing in a fresh good defensive back that can play 5/8 you virtually nullify and reduce his intended impact.
If you want to maintain the original attacking structure you can always employ another player to dummy half (Brisbane did this with Sam Thaiday) and restore your 5/8 to his original position.

Your depth of response and thought is great but your argument is flawed when you reckon that Holland can cover 1-7. Holland can play wing, centre and a bit of fullback if required. He cannot cover 6 and 7.

 

[Deathspell]

Your depth of response and thought is great but your argument is flawed when you reckon that Holland can cover 1-7. Holland can play wing, centre and a bit of fullback if required. He cannot cover 6 and 7.

He covered roaming 5/8 against Cows when JMK went to hooker and as far as 7 is concerned,when you are a roaming 5/8 you infact become another extension of the 7.
A roaming 5/8 doesn't play the way we've been used to for the last 20 years,it's a lot more technical and subtle.

A 5/8 can interchange with the half in a strategic play that's usually called the 3 or 4 pass shift.In this strategy all spine positions become interchangeable.
The objective is to work the ball from sideline to sideline,to try and catch the defense out,as the spine creates a channel or an overlap.
Fast pass shift is a lot harder to defend against then the current slower predictable edge play,that relies on line breaks and tackle busts and the involvement of a 2nd rower's big man’s hands.
Currently Storm and Dragons are occasionally executing this strategy.

First they work say the right side using a 2nd rower,center or wing to try and drag the defense as close to sideline as possible.
Then the center,2nd rower or wing goes to dummy half instead of hooker.
Munster the 5/8 goes to 1st receiver in place of the half (so now 5/8 effectively becomes the 7) and shifts it left to Smith a hooker,who is at 2nd receiver instead of 5/8.
Smith shifts it to Croft the half,as the left side 2nd row runs decoy.
Croft shifts it to Slater the fullback,as the left side center runs decoy.
Slater shifts it quickly to Ado Carr.

If the ball shifts fast to the left and if the decoys time their runs correctly,you are guaranteed of a channel or an overlap.
As the ball is shifting left,you keep the defense guessing by occasionally taking on the line,or quickly shift to the opposite wing.

So as attacks evolve all spine positions change to specific strategies.There are loads of other strategies that you can study where the 5/8 foils in and replaces the half,or interchanges with the fullback,most are done so quick that most people fail to notice until it becomes the norm which usually means it's time for a change.

 

[EB18]

He’s there for inj to our backs 1-7
It’s that simple

Why is it that hard for people to understand. HIA and injury simple thats why his there. His there to cover 1-7 and if the games over in the back end he comes on basically anywhere and gives someone a rest.

 

[Phalangist]

why so much anti Holland shit?

The guy consistently does whats asked of him.

He gets moved around 8 positions and delivers everytime. He also kicks goals at 80%

I find the Kennel has sheep mentality in the extreme. Holland has one off game in 2016 and you ***** condemn him for life despite him literally being a matchwinner on so many occassions.

Hahahaha please mate

 

[Nasheed]

Holland is our X factor and the weekend proved it.

X factor doesnt necessarily need to be an injectable livewire like Silva or Barba, as is usually the case, it can be someone that comes in and changes the dynamic of the game and dimensions of the attack and defence, like Holland did to great effect.

When a sperm hits an egg it changes the dimensions and makeup of a bitch's hormone level. Everything in the body changes on a very subtle level.

In this analogy, Holland is the sperm and everything else is the team.