Russia vs Ukraine

Doogie

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yes and no... there is a militaristic and expansionist element to certain circles in Russia, there is an obvious clique around Putin that has benefited by way of positions and financially, a certain sense of injustice that Russia lost its rightful place in the world in the 1990's, a paranoia about the West being out to get them, anger over "lost" territories... for example, Putin gave an interview in 2020(?) talking about historical Russian lands being gifted to other republics and peoples during Soviet times and there being no mechanism for the return of these "gifts" once those republics and peoples broke away... a convoluted mess
Rightful place? Interesting comparison between the UK and Russia. Russia took over most of Eastern Europe from late in the 1600's to the mid 19th century. Yet no right to self determination in the view of the average Russian. The UK gained its territory a little later but relinquished to self determination.

It sort of like, if we conquered it at some point its ours. Forever.

And for Putin to relate the Soviet era to historical Russia reinforces the colonial view.

I agree - a mess.
 

alchemist

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Rightful place? Interesting comparison between the UK and Russia. Russia took over most of Eastern Europe from late in the 1600's to the mid 19th century. Yet no right to self determination in the view of the average Russian. The UK gained its territory a little later but relinquished to self determination.

It sort of like, if we conquered it at some point its ours. Forever.

And for Putin to relate the Soviet era to historical Russia reinforces the colonial view.

I agree - a mess.
"Russia isn't Haiti.... Russia will rise again." - Boris Yeltsin

the UK was exhausted by the World Wars and found little support in their biggest ally, the US, in maintaining their colonies... by the time of the Suez canal farce, the British Empire was over... Russia's expansion was more along the lines of the US where they started as a moderately sized state and in one direction took everything to the sea and in the other wanted to consolidate itself as a European power... a historical irony that Alaska was Russian territory once until it was sold by them to the US
 

GoTheDoggies

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I think Putin has gone old and senile.

He probably overestimated how good the Russian army is.

Putin should see himself out. It's like if you were manager of a big club losing to a 2nd division minnow you should just walk and let someone more competent take over.

Russia should be a powerhouse but it is run by a senile man now. It's like sleepy Joe with USA except sleepy Joe isn't fixated on war.
 

Doogie

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"Russia isn't Haiti.... Russia will rise again." - Boris Yeltsin

the UK was exhausted by the World Wars and found little support in their biggest ally, the US, in maintaining their colonies... by the time of the Suez canal farce, the British Empire was over... Russia's expansion was more along the lines of the US where they started as a moderately sized state and in one direction took everything to the sea and in the other wanted to consolidate itself as a European power... a historical irony that Alaska was Russian territory once until it was sold by them to the US
well - US support for the UK was solid when communism was involved but otherwise - I agree.

Think its a poor comparison though between the US and Russia. gets down to how you view influence. Russia defines its sovereignty in a different way to the US. Think if you are under the US umbrella, you have more wriggle room than if under Russia. Thats on the basis that your view of statehood is basically influence. If not, then comparing the US acquisition of territory from native americans vs the expansion into states with 100's of years of history is an interesting take. and if we go down the path of native ownership - well - russia should be Ukraine and ukraine only.
 

alchemist

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well - US support for the UK was solid when communism was involved but otherwise - I agree.

Think its a poor comparison though between the US and Russia. gets down to how you view influence. Russia defines its sovereignty in a different way to the US. Think if you are under the US umbrella, you have more wriggle room than if under Russia. Thats on the basis that your view of statehood is basically influence. If not, then comparing the US acquisition of territory from native americans vs the expansion into states with 100's of years of history is an interesting take. and if we go down the path of native ownership - well - russia should be Ukraine and ukraine only.
my comparison was more along the lines as to how Russia and the US came to rule over such large territories and they are more analogous then the piece meal colonisation done by the UK across the globe... for example, the US wanted to claim everything to the Pacific and waged a war of aggression against Mexico in 1840 that even someone like Ulysses S Grant condemned

as for life under the spheres of influence of the US and Russia, historically you are right... you need only see the manner in which the Soviets crushed the rebellions in Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968, the repression of the Poles... Brezhnev even spoke of intervening where a socialist government was deposed even in countries which were not actually allied to the USSR (eg. Yugoslavia)... but with the Warsaw Pact and USSR gone, it is less of an issue now for Russia... as for life under the US, it is getting worse and worse and once partners are now starting to resemble vassals of the US
 

Doogie

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my comparison was more along the lines as to how Russia and the US came to rule over such large territories and they are more analogous then the piece meal colonisation done by the UK across the globe... for example, the US wanted to claim everything to the Pacific and waged a war of aggression against Mexico in 1840 that even someone like Ulysses S Grant condemned

as for life under the spheres of influence of the US and Russia, historically you are right... you need only see the manner in which the Soviets crushed the rebellions in Hungary in 1956 and Czechoslovakia in 1968, the repression of the Poles... Brezhnev even spoke of intervening where a socialist government was deposed even in countries which were not actually allied to the USSR (eg. Yugoslavia)... but with the Warsaw Pact and USSR gone, it is less of an issue now for Russia... as for life under the US, it is getting worse and worse and once partners are now starting to resemble vassals of the US
Still a bit of a flawed comparison imv but can see your point. Just not sure I agree with it.
 

alchemist

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More USA hardware heading towards Ukraine…
only after its armour is replaced so as to not fall into Russian hands if destroyed/disabled which will take months

I wish I could take credit for this comment:

"Javelins -> M777 -> HIMARS -> Leopards -> ATACMS -> F16 -> B2 Bomber -> Aircraft carier -> Submarines -> Atomic Bombs -> Death Star (which will be last game changer in this war)"
 

alchemist

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Untold Reality Of Wagner Group In Bakhmut Ukraine | First Hand Account, What The Media Wont Tell You


an interview with an Australian soldier who has fought in Ukraine for anyone interested
 

belmore_utd

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Some brilliant commentary by Galloway

"Might not be long before you can take off your fur hat and put on a tin one, and go off and fight and die on the question of whether Kupiansk is on one side of a line when it's been in four different countries in the last hundred years"

 
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Hacky McAxe

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Putin and Biden both made speeches. The gist of it was:

Biden:

- Russia will never win this war
- The US will keep supporting Ukraine indefinitely

Putin:

- The West started this war, Russia is just defending themselves
- The West will use terrorism to attack Russia
- The West and Ukraine are being controlled by the Devil
- Ukraine are Nazis and the West are helping their fascist state rise to power
- The West supports gay people and paedophiles
- Ukrainian people are hostages of the West and Russia are liberating them

Russia also suspended the last nuclear agreement they had. Which means they are now free to make more nuclear weapons, test nuclear weapons, and they won't be inspected any more. But Putin also refused inspection for the last few years so not much has changed.

On another note, China has strengthened its support for Russia. They are still calling for peace, but they are blaming the US and other allies for the war and saying that peace will only come when the West stops opposing Russia.
 

Tassie Devil

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Putin and Biden both made speeches. The gist of it was:

Biden:

- Russia will never win this war
- The US will keep supporting Ukraine indefinitely

Putin:

- The West started this war, Russia is just defending themselves
- The West will use terrorism to attack Russia
- The West and Ukraine are being controlled by the Devil
- Ukraine are Nazis and the West are helping their fascist state rise to power
- The West supports gay people and paedophiles
- Ukrainian people are hostages of the West and Russia are liberating them

Russia also suspended the last nuclear agreement they had. Which means they are now free to make more nuclear weapons, test nuclear weapons, and they won't be inspected any more. But Putin also refused inspection for the last few years so not much has changed.

On another note, China has strengthened its support for Russia. They are still calling for peace, but they are blaming the US and other allies for the war and saying that peace will only come when the West stops opposing Russia.
Trying to kickstart this thread mate? Ha, I'm not sure you'll be able to but good to see :grinning:

Of course China is opposing it as they want to do the same shit to Taiwan, which is why kicking Russia's arse is so important.

See there's trouble brewing from within the military with the Wagner group kicking up a bit of a stink. Maybe this will destabalise everything a little more? Though I'd imagine it'll only result in more mystery falls out windows.
 

Hacky McAxe

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Trying to kickstart this thread mate? Ha, I'm not sure you'll be able to but good to see :grinning:

Of course China is opposing it as they want to do the same shit to Taiwan, which is why kicking Russia's arse is so important.

See there's trouble brewing from within the military with the Wagner group kicking up a bit of a stink. Maybe this will destabalise everything a little more? Though I'd imagine it'll only result in more mystery falls out windows.
Yeah, the Wagner stuff is interesting. One of Putin's lead men has come out saying that Russia has betrayed Wagner. But they're still private so I'm not sure how much most of the military will care.
 

Tassie Devil

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Yeah, the Wagner stuff is interesting. One of Putin's lead men has come out saying that Russia has betrayed Wagner. But they're still private so I'm not sure how much most of the military will care.
It seems to be having an affect on the soldiers though from what I see? Plenty of internal disputes on the battle field including shootings, and refusals to cooperate.

The war will end quicked if internally something is done within Russia, and at present only the Wagner outfit seems to have the balls to stand up to Putin & the military?

As you say though, will anyone care?
 

Tassie Devil

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Yeah, the Wagner stuff is interesting. One of Putin's lead men has come out saying that Russia has betrayed Wagner. But they're still private so I'm not sure how much most of the military will care.
For example, apparently one of the head honchos at Wagner shared this pic today criticising the regular army for not supplying the required weapons / shells etc.

20230222_123240.jpg
 

Doogie

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For example, apparently one of the head honchos at Wagner shared this pic today criticising the regular army for not supplying the required weapons / shells etc.

View attachment 65563
Mate - probably not good to posting images of dead people like this online. I know you are putting this up from an information perspective and not something untoward - just think its not right for a sports forum.
 
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