Religious Discussion Thread

[Caveman]

I thank you for your explanation..and it is from a Christian perspective.. I guess unless we are in the shoes of victims or the families..we don’t know if they can ever ‘move on’..

Yeh brother, like I said it's a sensitive topic, and I don’t think we can ever expect or ask a victim or family member to move on, that would be very insensitive.

 

[The DoggFather]

It is impossible to know whether or not the “good thief” went “straight to heaven” or had to undergo Purgatory. We cannot really judge that. It could be that he died in a state of perfect contrition for his sins and received baptism of desire.

A larger issue is that the Greek manuscripts that contain this passage do not contain punctuation. So did Jesus say to him: “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise” OR “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.” Punctuation makes a big difference.

Another issue is whether in this case “paradise” means heaven. It could also refer to the abode of the dead for the righteous, the bosom of Abraham. In which case the gates of heaven would not have been opened yet until the resurrection, so they would have been together in the abode of the righteous and the good thief still could have undergone some purgation before receiving the Beatific Vision. While this is a highly contested theory of the use of “paradise” it is still debated.

And, most importantly, since the cleansing of Purgatory takes place outside of space and time as we currently know them then the concept of today, tomorrow, or whenever in relation to Purgatory is not a one-to-one analogy.

Generally speaking the most common understanding of the passage has been that the good thief went “straight to heaven” due to his perfect contrition for his sins, but some other theories are also acceptable to the faith.

But I will leave you with this, Sure the word Purgatory isn't in the bible, but neither is the word "Trinity" and yet ALL Christians believe in the Triune God. Neither is the word "Incarnation" in the bible but ALL Christians believe that God became man. The word doesn't have to be there but purification of the soul is most definitely in the Bible and we call this purgatory(as in to purge):

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
"For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

This passage is neither referring to Heaven or Hell on the DAY(Day of Judgement). Why? Well it's not Heaven because there is no suffering in Heaven, and it's definitely not Hell because the passage talks about still being saved and we know when you're in Hell you're there for good. So if it's neither Heaven nor Hell then what is it? It's clear from the text that it's talking about purification...i.e ..."he himself will be saved, but only through fire"

Well my next post was going to be is the bosom of Abraham the same as purgatory?

PS I'm proud and impressed of your Biblical knowledge bro, God bless you and give you wisdom.

 

[Mr 95%]

I lost one of my players this year and I'm still not over it...my heart is broken and can't even begin to manage to understand what his poor family is going through.

“Grief is the price we pay for love.” Queen Elizabeth II

 

[Mr 95%]

Well my next post was going to be is the bosom of Abraham the same as purgatory?

Well rock my soul!!!

 

[Realist90]

Yes I understand this and accept the reasoning..I just feel for the victims..

Definitely but that’s why purgatory makes so much sense as does hell and heaven. How unjust would it be if a murderer goes life loving that way destroying families and just dies and rests in peace? Surely there’s a ultimate punishment after life right? Otherwise they’ve lived a horrible life and will never be held accountable to it.

 

[Dogna88]

Are you actually interested in discovering what the biblical understanding is regarding slavery?

There's plenty of points in that original post that should challenge your current view on biblical slavery, yet you have come back with this, which is very easily explained with a simple google search.

There is a lot that needs to be discussed and considered, let me know how the other points I mentioned mesh with your current view and we will see if we can kick off a discussion from there.

You said slavery wasn't the same back then as it was now. But then in the same post confirmed the ownership of one human by another.

You said masters were not allowed to harm slaves. And i quoted a verse that specifically says they can. Its there. Black and white. Same with the quotes of St Paul.

You said slaves are free after 7 years. As you know that only applies to a certain type of people.

So i ask you quiet simply. Is it ever ok for one human to have another human as "property"? And if that property is disobedient, to belt that human with a rod as long as that human does not die

 

[Mr 95%]

Definitely but that’s why purgatory makes so much sense as does hell and heaven. How unjust would it be if a murderer goes life loving that way destroying families and just dies and rests in peace? Surely there’s a ultimate punishment after life right? Otherwise they’ve lived a horrible life and will never be held accountable to it.

Totally understand this Christian perspective..

 

[Realist90]

Totally understand this Christian perspective..

But you’re right, if you’re atheist. It’s gonna be hard to find any sort of justice tbh

 

[Mr 95%]

But you’re right, if you’re atheist. It’s gonna be hard to find any sort of justice tbh

Just a note too on Purgatory I thought the church said it doesn’t exist anymore..

 

[Realist90]

Not to argue my bro but Lord Jesus never talked about purgatory.

If anything, He rules it out as He was on the cross

“Then he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise,’” Luke 23:42-43.

Dawg gave a great answer bro. There’s also another parable in the bible Jesus says where some will come straight into the wedding, others will be punished before they get in, others will be punished and completely left out. Heaven/purgatory/hell. I’ve probably butchered the lords parable

 

[dogwhisperer]

Well my next post was going to be is the bosom of Abraham the same as purgatory?

PS I'm proud and impressed of your Biblical knowledge bro, God bless you and give you wisdom.

The bosom of Abraham is neither Heaven nor Hell. It's the place where the righteous abided before the resurrection of Jesus.
I don't think the Bosom of Abraham exists anymore after the resurrection. And it's definitely not Purgatory.

 

[Realist90]

Just a note too on Purgatory I thought the church said it doesn’t exist anymore..

The Catholic Church? Nah that’s never been said? Where’d you hear that?

 

[The DoggFather]

Dawg gave a great answer bro. There’s also another parable in the bible Jesus says where some will come straight into the wedding, others will be punished before they get in, others will be punished and completely left out. Heaven/purgatory/hell. I’ve probably butchered the lords parable

Yeah he did.

Especially when he mentioned God works outside of our concept of space and time.

 

[Realist90]

The bosom of Abraham is neither Heaven nor Hell. It's the place where the righteous abided before the resurrection of Jesus.
I don't think the Bosom of Abraham exists anymore after the resurrection. And it's definitely not Purgatory.

Yeah this is where some people think Catholics are satanic because we say Jesus descended into hell. Jesus never went fully into hell but like you said the bosom of Abraham which if we try and explain in man language it’s like on the outskirts of hell but not actually in hell.

 

[The DoggFather]

Yeah this is where some people think Catholics are satanic because we say Jesus descended into hell. Jesus never went fully into hell but like you said the bosom of Abraham which if we try and explain in man language it’s like on the outskirts of hell but not actually in hell.

Is that when the rich man in hell called out to Lazarus for a drop of water? (PS probably over simplified the passage).

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Definitely but that’s why purgatory makes so much sense as does hell and heaven. How unjust would it be if a murderer goes life loving that way destroying families and just dies and rests in peace? Surely there’s a ultimate punishment after life right? Otherwise they’ve lived a horrible life and will never be held accountable to it.

Except if they feel remorse and repent. In which case they receive no punishment.

 

[Mr 95%]

The Catholic Church? Nah that’s never been said? Where’d you hear that?

I think I’ve confused with the fact it’s a state of existence not a place..that is what Pope John Paul II is quoted as saying.. Interestingly I believe all souls who enter this ‘state of existent’ will be cleansed of their sins..and will go too heaven..?

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Just a note too on Purgatory I thought the church said it doesn’t exist anymore..

Not exactly. Just a bit of confusion. The Church never considered purgatory to be a place where you go after you die. Purgatory is a process. Basically if your soul is not pure then purgatory purifies you. Limbo is the place that people confuse with "purgatory" thanks to Hollywood. Limbo also isn't really a Catholic concept. It's more of a theological assumption.

Basically, if babies can't go to heaven if they're not baptised, where do they go? Limbo is a concept they came up with. But I don't think there's any scriptures to say that limbo exists either.

 

[Mr 95%]

Not exactly. Just a bit of confusion. The Church never considered purgatory to be a place where you go after you die. Purgatory is a process. Basically if your soul is not pure then purgatory purifies you. Limbo is the place that people confuse with "purgatory" thanks to Hollywood. Limbo also isn't really a Catholic concept. It's more of a theological assumption.

Basically, if babies can't go to heaven if they're not baptised, where do they go? Limbo is a concept they came up with. But I don't think there's any scriptures to say that limbo exists either.

I think they don’t use the word Limbo Hacky.. As said above Purgatory is considered not a place but a state of existence.. not a place..as Heaven is considered Paradise and Hell a place of fire and brimstone..

 

[Realist90]

Except if they feel remorse and repent. In which case they receive no punishment.

Wth are you on about