Religious Discussion Thread

[Dogna88]

If you could get away without making the other person deceased and you do make them deceased, then that is murder.

Thats not the question though.

If i intentionally killed someone to protect myself (with the force proportionate to the threat). I still am intentionally killing someone. I wont get found guilty of murder

If i intentionally kill/abort a fetus . I wont get found guilty of murder.

Call in justified killing, unjustified killing wtc etc

Murder is simply a legal construct.

Its a separate debate from OMV. Its just an argument of definition. And definitions matter

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

Thats not the question though.

If i intentionally killed someone to protect myself (with the force proportionate to the threat). I still am intentionally killing someone. I wont get found guilty of murder

If i intentionally kill/abort a fetus . I wont get found guilty of murder.

Call in justified killing, unjustified killing wtc etc

Murder is simply a legal construct.

Its a separate debate from OMV. Its just an argument of definition. And definitions matter

I am not talking about man made laws.
The law in Nazi Germany was that murdering Jews was not illegal.

 

[Dogna88]

I am not talking about man made laws.
The law in Nazi Germany was that murdering Jews was not illegal.

Yes. I understood what you meant.

Murder is a man made legal construct. Its not a theological construct.

Thou shall not kill is not thou shall not murder.

Hacky asked you if murder or all killing was wrong/evil. You said murder (and emphasised intent).

Simply highlighting technically you should not say that as i am sure you don't agree with abortion. Which is what you'd subjectively define as an unjustifed killing.... but murder, it is not.

That doesn't take away if you think its wrong/evil and should be murder.

 

[Bob dog]

Prayed to the Holy spirit while playing the pokies on Friday and it clocked up 200

 

[Hacky McAxe]

I am not talking about man made laws.
The law in Nazi Germany was that murdering Jews was not illegal.

But all laws are man made

 

[Kelpie03]

But all laws are man made

The laws in our country are man made, but were based on British laws as we all know, I guess like all laws and particularily their enforcement are subjective to the current mood in our or any society. It was reportered that in 1928 a young man was hanged in Victoria and it was later found that he could not have committed the murder. I had a business in a country town and when a drunk a local nobody started fooling around. The publican went outside found a steel bar went back inside belted the drunk over the head and killed him, Appearantly a "friendly" majestrate was appointed to hear the case, who even skited around town that the case wouldn't get past him, and proceed to have the case thrown out when it went before him.
Ever since Cain and Abel the killing of a human has generally been condemed, however its enforcement and interperation has always depended on many factors including money, social status, friends in the right place etc.
I guess for us believers only God will be able to dish out proper justice

 

[The DoggFather]

Ok. But who determines the difference? Who determines where to draw the line?

Say you kill someone while defending yourself. Maybe you had to kill them. Maybe you didn't.

Justifiable killing IMO

I didn't premeditate killing someone while defending my family or myself. Since no premeditation, no murder.

BUT

If I get drunk and run over and kill someone, that's murder as I know drink driving is a crime and dangerous.

 

[CaptainJackson]

What about people like Robin Williams?

From all reports he was extremely charitable, whenever he had live shows it would be in his contract that they had to hire homeless people to help back stage/ as stage hands

But he suffered from depression and ultimately this led to his suicide

Given he brought so much joy to people and helped others as much as he could but could not cope with a medical condition, is it OM that he burns in hell for an eternity because he committed suicide?

 

[Kelpie03]

It’s not who Kelpie, it’s a what.. it is short for Objective Morality..the belief that morality is universal..it is ‘programmed’ within us..and for religious people, this morality code within us is from God.

Very true but our Governments have either by choice ie (written into Law) apthay or corruption have continually watered down the concept of trying to get as close to Justice as possible.
I've believed for along time now that many in our society, are lucky that their are still some who live by the morality taught by God and is still followed by true Christians.
Became friends with an American while living in the outback many years ago, who said that in the past that if something was morally wrong it was also illegial.
But he said that now it is no longer the case, and this was around the early 1980's, I'm certain that morality has deteriorated a lot more since then, and doing Justice is now no longer the objective of our legal people or the written Laws and thats why I hold on to my Christian dearly..

 

[Mr 95%]

Very true but our Governments have either by choice ie (written into Law) apthay or corruption have continually watered down the concept of trying to get as close to Justice as possible.
I've believed for along time now that many in our society, are lucky that their are still some who live by the morality taught by God and is still followed by true Christians.
Became friends with an American while living in the outback many years ago, who said that in the past that if something was morally wrong it was also illegial.
But he said that now it is no longer the case, and this was around the early 1980's, I'm certain that morality has deteriorated a lot more since then, and doing Justice is now no longer the objective of our legal people or the written Laws and thats why I hold on to my Christian dearly..

As you can see from the discussion in this forum it’s a hotly debated issue where our morality comes from..is it ‘programmed’ in us through God/benevolent being or does it come out of evolution and our necessity to survive..the need to have like minded people around us so we can live in harmony and progress..

The problem is, that people’s answers will mostly like (more closer to defiantly) be influenced by whether they believe in God or not..and that is the difficulty of the whole discussion..

 

[Doogie]

As you can see from the discussion in this forum it’s a hotly debated issue where our morality comes from..is it ‘programmed’ in us through God/benevolent being or does it come out of evolution and our necessity to survive..the need to have like minded people around us so we can live in harmony and progress..

The problem is, that people’s answers will mostly like (more closer to defiantly) be influenced by whether they believe in God or not..and that is the difficulty of the whole discussion..

Nope.

Think if you're Godist - you lose subjectivity and blindly follow your beliefs. Religion doesn't really allow for free thought within certain boundaries. Have no issues with the concept of morality being an evolutionary response (or if it can be proven, something left with us by something further up to food chain). Whether it is or not is up to people who have time trying to demonstrate concepts they will never prove.

So on one side you have doctrine - on the other at least a preparedness to accept some form of evidence. Per above - there is none. Its all fluffy words.

And for the Godists - the epic of gilgamesh rolled around 2000 years b4 Christ. So please don't point as a book for evidence.

 

[Mr 95%]

Nope.

Think if you're Godist - you lose subjectivity and blindly follow your beliefs. Religion doesn't really allow for free thought within certain boundaries. Have no issues with the concept of morality being an evolutionary response (or if it can be proven, something left with us by something further up to food chain). Whether it is or not is up to people who have time trying to demonstrate concepts they will never prove.

So on one side you have doctrine - on the other at least a preparedness to accept some form of evidence. Per above - there is none. Its all fluffy words.

And for the Godists - the epic of gilgamesh rolled around 2000 years b4 Christ. So please don't point as a book for evidence.

That’s what I said..without all the fluffy words..so it’s yep not nope..

 

[Doogie]

That’s what I said..without all the fluffy words..so it’s yep not nope..

Still nope.
Godists will not accept another reality even if their is evidence.
Non-godists, with appropriate evidence, will accept another reality.
So the argument isn't defined by belief. Its defined on whether you are prepared to accept evidence or not.

 

[Kelpie03]

As you can see from the discussion in this forum it’s a hotly debated issue where our morality comes from..is it ‘programmed’ in us through God/benevolent being or does it come out of evolution and our necessity to survive..the need to have like minded people around us so we can live in harmony and progress..

The problem is, that people’s answers will mostly like (more closer to defiantly) be influenced by whether they believe in God or not..and that is the difficulty of the whole discussion..

I haven't read all the discussions relating to OM, but there is clear evedence that some form of law existed in most if not all societies even in the most primative.
However I strongly believe that the level of morality found in the 10 commantments and further reinforced by Christ is by far the most comprenhensive and full proof of any other, including that of our Islamic brothers who allow men to have more than 1 wife.

 

[Kelpie03]

Still nope.
Godists will not accept another reality even if their is evidence.
Non-godists, with appropriate evidence, will accept another reality.
So the argument isn't defined by belief. Its defined on whether you are prepared to accept evidence or not.

OK Doogie we all have our own fixed narrative,
If you want to you will find evidence that Jesus Christ or (the Son of God) did live on earth and did things which no human could have possibly done.
As for the Non- Godists , as you call them, I haven't yet meet 1 who is even prepared to look in the possibility of the existance of God.
As for evolution V creation, no one has yet explained to me how matter came to be in the first place, other than stating the obvious ie . the fact that evolution did happen. But I might add that evolution is an on going thing, and it is because, everything on earth and in the universe is constantly moving and therefore continually evolving.
Trying to live a Christian Life is not easy, particularily in the modern world therefore many have found an excuse to reject Christianity and turn away. from God
If you want some proof about God, you should get hold of the book, "Reason to believie" by Ron Teseriero and Mike Willisee

 

[Mr 95%]

Still nope.
Godists will not accept another reality even if their is evidence.
Non-godists, with appropriate evidence, will accept another reality.
So the argument isn't defined by belief. Its defined on whether you are prepared to accept evidence or not.

blindly follow your beliefs.

People get blinded by their religious beliefs to the point they won’t accept evidence..which is what you have said here..and that’s my point as well.. That is the difficulty in arguing on this topic..and that is all I way saying..

However, I see what you are talking about, you think I’m suggesting that when I refer to beliefs that those who don’t believe in God, are swayed by their beliefs, but you on the contrary are saying that it’s about the evidence presented and their willingness to accept new evidence which proves their previous evidence incorrect..

Well guess what Doogie we agree.. i don’t think I made myself clear enough in my first post..

 

[Doogie]

OK Doogie we all have our own fixed narrative,
If you want to you will find evidence that Jesus Christ or (the Son of God) did live on earth and did things which no human could have possibly done.
As for the Non- Godists , as you call them, I haven't yet meet 1 who is even prepared to look in the possibility of the existance of God.
As for evolution V creation, no one has yet explained to me how matter came to be in the first place, other than stating the obvious ie . the fact that evolution did happen. But I might add that evolution is an on going thing, and it is because, everything on earth and in the universe is constantly moving and therefore continually evolving.
Trying to live a Christian Life is not easy, particularily in the modern world therefore many have found an excuse to reject Christianity and turn away. from God
If you want some proof about God, you should get hold of the book, "Reason to believie" by Ron Teseriero and Mike Willisee

Lol - u can stick a gazzilion books demonstrating evolution. You can show evolution actually occurring in real time - but devout godists still won't buy it.

U stick some entity in front of me who can create or do something that science cannot explain, then I would believe in it.

So - I'm open to a different view. Can u say the same?

And if the views of a Sydney lawyer doing science were demonstrable evidence - we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Doogie]

People get blinded by their religious beliefs to the point they won’t accept evidence..which is what you have said here..and that’s my point as well.. That is the difficulty in arguing on this topic..and that is all I way saying..

However, I see what you are talking about, you think I’m suggesting that when I refer to beliefs that those who don’t believe in God, are swayed by their beliefs, but you on the contrary are saying that it’s about the evidence presented and their willingness to accept new evidence which proves their previous evidence incorrect..

Well guess what Doogie we agree.. i don’t think I made myself clear enough in my first post..

But its still a nope

 

[Mr 95%]

But its still a nope

Whatever..

 

[Mr 95%]

I haven't read all the discussions relating to OM, but there is clear evedence that some form of law existed in most if not all societies even in the most primative.
However I strongly believe that the level of morality found in the 10 commantments and further reinforced by Christ is by far the most comprenhensive and full proof of any other, including that of our Islamic brothers who allow men to have more than 1 wife.

But Kelpie, if morality is given to us by God, why is it different in different cultures..wouldn’t it all be the same?