Pay to be spared the axe for now... but Bulldogs’ $3m headache remains

[BULLDVGS]

Castle and Dib told Hasler to play to a higher salary cap closer to ~11m (for whatever reason they thought they had 100% evidence/information that the salary cap would increase to that amount, it didn't). That doesn't come from the coach. I'm sure Hasler designed the contracts to fit the "new" salary cap or at least had some say. To me that's almost irrelevant. I don't think that's a good enough reason to give our best coach since 2005 (since I've been watching the Bulldogs) the flick.

He also picked up Woods and Foz for 1m each or close to. He's not without blame in all this.

 

[TwinTurbo]

2 player managers refuse to deal with us at the moment. What does that tell you?

It tells me nothing until you name them.

Go Dogs

 

[TwinTurbo]

A good tradesmen never blames his tools

A good tradesman buys good tools (when they can afford them).

Go Dogs

 

[mikey]

To the members who say repeatedly that no one could coach this team to a finals berth because of lack of skill etc and Pay doesn’t have the “tools” at his disposal,success is not based on how many wins a coach gets.If that was the case then only one coach per year is deemed a success and the rest “ can’t coach” As stated before Pay has done nothing ,besides Adam Elliot according to a few on here,to improve the players.If you say that oh wait til he gets better player,he has had near 3 years to make better players.You don’t put a first year apprentice in the corner and wish he was a tradesman...you show him what it takes...has Pay done that?
The successful clubs and I mean coaches are the ones that develop players and then reap what they sow...
Forget the b.s of let’s see how he goes because once the super team is assembled they will only be good until age catches up with them because we have no development coming thru.
JMK,Smith,Holland etc are continually bagged for their deficiencies but surely they should have been coached properly to strengthen their game...anybody seen that yet?
This is why a new coach is needed ,not because of the roster we have but because it hasn’t shown improvement...Rant over ...

Mate I get what your saying.but cmon those players you mentioned wouldn’t get picked in any other team.pay took over the job then had players taken away because of the cap situation.he didn’t get a year with the roster that des left behind.he didn’t sign foran.im not saying he has excelled.but to be fair on him he hasn’t had money to go spend on some quality players.lets not forget that korisau was a done deal he changed his mind to play under a coach who he had played under before which is fair enough.had he come to the dogs I think our results this year would have been a bit better.also no Canterbury cup so not like you can pick a player in form from the lower grades.we all knew that this year was going to be a write off.the salary cap that pay was left to work with saw to that.dont also forget madge took a look at our cap and said no thanks.

 

[ozdog]

It depends on two things.

One, where are we expected to finish before a ball was kicked, assuming we recruit well it's going to be in or around the eight. So far Pay has exceeded expectations with ladder placement so I'll back him to at least meet expectations.

Two, does the eye test look good. Similar to above I believe our current team passes the eye test. It is subjective so it's just weighing up who's opinion is worth more.

Who gives a shit where “we are expected to finish” anything other than a premiership is a fail.

Since when have the Bulldogs settled for mediocrity? In or around the 8 is not good enough!

Pay will never get us there, he wanted to get Reynolds back, that shows what he will do with our “war chest”.

Time to move on, Pay has had his time, 3 years of being the slowest, most unfit, boring team to watch is all we need to see of his coaching style. The buck stops with him, after all it’s a results driven business and the results aren’t there and won’t be there with him and his golden child Lewis.

 

[bradyk]

Who gives a shit where “we are expected to finish” anything other than a premiership is a fail.

Since when have the Bulldogs settled for mediocrity? In or around the 8 is not good enough!

Pay will never get us there, he wanted to get Reynolds back, that shows what he will do with our “war chest”.

Time to move on, Pay has had his time, 3 years of being the slowest, most unfit, boring team to watch is all we need to see of his coaching style. The buck stops with him, after all it’s a results driven business and the results aren’t there and won’t be there with him and his golden child Lewis.

Unrealistic.
Salary cap F'd by previous management.
For the right price I would have had Reynolds back too. ~300k.
Pay has exceeded expectations. Why is it time to move on when he hasn't even had a chance to coach a competitive roster (and like I said he's exceeded expectations - which is a fact). Unless a top coach is available I don't see it, sorry.
We have a shit roster, we're rebuilding. It was never going to be pretty.

 

[TwinTurbo]

So you would be happy for Dean Pay to get the players that he wants with our so called war chest (remember we get one shot at this) then fails next year bring in a new coach and he's not happy with the players that Pay has brought in and wants to build the team that he wants?

Remember the contracts that Pay signs these players with are normally a minimum of 3 years.
So then us supporters will need to wait for another 3 more years.

Pay has not shown enough with game style,team selections and adapting to the new rules.
I think its too much of a risk with the war chest.

Dean Pay is a defensive grind out a game style coach.
The game is not like that anymore with the new 6 again rule.
We need a coach that will mix it up i understand we have below standard nrl players.
But a smart coach will play to each players strengths.

You really need to look at the players still on contract for 2022, there is 4, which means we have 26 vacant spots for that year. Even if we fill the 11 spots for next year with players on 3 year contracts that still leaves 15 spots to fill for 2022.
You then really need to look at the players still on contract for 2023, there is 2, which means we have 28 vacant spots for that year.

The problem with our roster from 2019 to 2021 was too many contracts expired in 2021 all at once and to make it worse many were heavily back ended. Hence no Cap space or room for additional players, not without letting some go that in other circumstances would be retained.

To me an ideal roster has 1/3rd of the players (ie; around 10) off contract every year, which results in a recruiting budget of around $3.3m every year (within a Salary Cap of $9.6m). That requires an average of 3 year player contracts. Of course we can have 4 and 5 year contracts but they should be offset with players on 1 and 2 year contracts. That gives the Cap flexibility to grab a quality player/s whenever it is necessary

As a comparison the Chooks have 9 spots available for 2021 and 21 spots available for 2022.

Go Dogs

 

[Riggs80]

Those analysts have also said that some of their players aren't playing for the coach as well as under performing as individuals. We get the opposite. There is no other club in the NRL currently that's going through what we're, yet we're also looking to be better off and that's excluding recruitment. There is and should be more pressure on all the other coaches, not Pay.

‘those analysts are full of shit , you have one in gus saying don’t sack coaches , he has probably sacked more coaches than anyone in the game !

so The only thing you have going for pay is that the players are still playing for him . That’s it ?
No one has improved (argument for Elliot )that’s a fact

the guy is a dud , you want to give him the keys to the castle for another year in the hope and I say hope that he may prove to not be a dud , where you have no evidence that he can coach or be successful . But wait he has a team not performing wanting to play for him so let him loose for another year

Salary cap is a cop out, they have bought players since and hardly anyone left playing this year that was on a des/dib contract . You can still improve the squad and play better in the meantime . You think magically they are going to buy a whole new squad in one hit, when so many teams are looking at roster management and improvements.

 

[DinkumDog]

Thanks for the detailed reply mate. I agree and honestly had already written 2020 (and 2019 and 2018) off as just being also rans. Remaining patient is tough and we’re all hopeful, not yet confident, to see all aspects of the club improve not just the playing roster.

My old man is a Souths supporter and I remember him joking in the early 2000’s that their wins were so enjoyable as they were so rare haha. Sad we’re in the same boat

My commiserations to your old man .

Yeah it isn’t fun mate, especially when Bulldogs fans are used to success - not always premierships but always competitive and in the fight.

I decided to take a pragmatic approach when the board fronted the members in 2018 and laid it out. They have a few months left to deliver and I’m hopeful they do and their very closely held cards contain a couple of aces. If they don’t, it’s hard to see them getting any sustained support. Hang in there .

 

[bradyk]

‘those analysts are full of shit , you have one in gus saying don’t sack coaches , he has probably sacked more coaches than anyone in the game !

so The only thing you have going for pay is that the players are still playing for him . That’s it ?
No one has improved (argument for Elliot )that’s a fact

the guy is a dud , you want to give him the keys to the castle for another year in the hope and I say hope that he may prove to not be a dud , where you have no evidence that he can coach or be successful . But wait he has a team not performing wanting to play for him so let him loose for another year

Salary cap is a cop out, they have bought players since and hardly anyone left playing this year that was on a des/dib contract . You can still improve the squad and play better in the meantime . You think magically they are going to buy a whole new squad in one hit, when so many teams are looking at roster management and improvements.

How is our team not performing? What do you mean by not performing (I assume ladder placement)? I don't think there's much more you can get out of these players. I personally like what I see and there are very good signs that when we get a competitive roster we can do something with it (that's for the majority of the team, we just need four to five more players like I keep saying). No one here can speak about the tactical side of the game (with much credit), I believe all the teams are doing similar things, it's how it's executed (I don't believe we have the cattle/roster). My number one thing right now is effort and are the players playing for the coach, and that's a hard yes. Also again unless we sign a top coach none of this changes and we possibly go backwards. I don't see any reason to shake the boat. I love how we're excluding Elliott and just saying To'omaga and Averillo haven't improved under Pay, it's just that they're now being selected. Pick and choose to suit agenda.

 

[DinkumDog]

No evidence to suggest Holbrook or Demetriou are better than Pay. O'Brien is also coaching a competitive roster.

Also no evidence that any of them were actually pursued. Yet we ‘missed’. OK .

 

[Riggs80]

How is our team not performing? What do you mean by not performing (I assume ladder placement)? I don't think there's much more you can get out of these players. I personally like what I see and there are very good signs that when we get a competitive roster we can do something with it. No one here can speak about the tactical side of the game (with much credit), I believe all the teams are doing similar things, it's how it's executed (I don't believe with have the cattle/roster). My number one thing right now is effort and are the players playing for the coach, and that's a hard yes. Also again unless we sign a top coach none of this changes and we possibly go backwards. I don't see any reason to shake the boat. I love how we're excluding Elliott and just saying To'omaga and Averillo haven't improved under Pay, it's just that they're now being selected. Pick and choose to suit agenda.

see that’s where we differ , I look at tigers and they have comparable side past 2 years.
Tigers forward pack is inferior , outside backs comparable
Hooker they have the advantage
Halves Foran is as good as Benji/ Reynolds
Brooks only shines when they have momentum

McGuire has the with a final chance all season (doesn’t collect wins at back end of season when teams taking them lightly ) and demands better from players .

 

[ozdog]

Unrealistic.
Salary cap F'd by previous management.
For the right price I would have had Reynolds back too. ~300k.
Pay has exceeded expectations. Why is it time to move on when he hasn't even had a chance to coach a competitive roster (and like I said he's exceeded expectations - which is a fact). Unless a top coach is available I don't see it, sorry.
We have a shit roster, we're rebuilding. It was never going to be pretty.

Yes the club was screwed by des, dib and co, but Pay knew what he signed up for.

Never pretty is pretty much right, we are shit, we are so unfit and slow we are the laughing stock of the Nrl.

Why are we so far behind at the start of every year with our fitness levels? That ain’t got nothing to do with skill level, that’s the coach and his staff.

Yes we have a shit roster, how many players have been extended under his watch though? Lewis, Jacko, Jmk to name a few.

He thinks Jmk is the future of the club at hooker, enough said, he can’t even see that he is a bench utility at best, ffs he has a natural hooker sitting there doing nothing he won’t even give a shot.

Pay has no game plan, have a look at his interchanges week in and week out, replacing a centre with a winger then putting the same centre back on 5 minutes later, wasting interchanges all while our slow unfit forwards are getting dominated through the middle.

He is no longer a rookie coach, this is his 3rd season and still can’t get basics right, time to move on, sick of seeing 3 hit ups, Tolman 4th, block play then a bomb, that’s the best your super coach can come up with after nearly 3 years.

 

[DinkumDog]

If he’s doing such an outstanding job why did his bosses give him a 4 week ultimatum?

We don’t know that’s true apart from the usual media gossip though.

 

[bradyk]

Yes the club was screwed by des, dib and co, but Pay knew what he signed up for.

Never pretty is pretty much right, we are shit, we are so unfit and slow we are the laughing stock of the Nrl.

Why are we so far behind at the start of every year with our fitness levels? That ain’t got nothing to do with skill level, that’s the coach and his staff.

Yes we have a shit roster, how many players have been extended under his watch though? Lewis, Jacko, Jmk to name a few.

He thinks Jmk is the future of the club at hooker, enough said, he can’t even see that he is a bench utility at best, ffs he has a natural hooker sitting there doing nothing he won’t even give a shot.

Pay has no game plan, have a look at his interchanges week in and week out, replacing a centre with a winger then putting the same centre back on 5 minutes later, wasting interchanges all while our slow unfit forwards are getting dominated through the middle.

He is no longer a rookie coach, this is his 3rd season and still can’t get basics right, time to move on, sick of seeing 3 hit ups, Tolman 4th, block play then a bomb, that’s the best your super coach can come up with after nearly 3 years.

Our roster is bottom four on paper. We have some good players that we can build around for 2021. I disagree that our team is unfit, I do think our team is slow overall, especially in the middle (hello Thompson).
Lewis was playing well at the time, it depends how much we re-signed him for, I prefer Wakeham, so at this stage Lewis is a back up. Jackson we had to re-sign, captain and leader. Great on and off the field for a club rebuilding. JMK wasn't re-signed to be our starting hooker (imo), he'll be a utility player moving forward, I think he suits this role well. You say Pay thinks JMK is our future hooker yet he came out last year and said it was a position we were trying to strengthen and we basically signed Koroisau (we've also been in the market for multiple hookers, this is a recruitment team/board issue, not Pay imo).
If Pay doesn't have a game plan then I believe Bennett and whoever is coaching at the Rabbitohs doesn't have a game plan either. I can't go into specifics without analysing each and every game, but overall from the eye test I'm happy with what I see regarding us. We don't have the players (or at least enough players) to create something on their own (e.g. X-Factor) or for other players. Execution is also important. A team like us also can't afford to give away six agains, penalties and errors at crucial times. I believe this is also on the players. I agree with some roster decisions from the outside (the line-up we have now is almost perfect imo), I haven't really noticed the interchange as a reason to why we're losing.

 

[maroondog72]

We're not expected to win any games based on roster. The fact the team and coach are getting any W's at all is amazing.

What a first class crock of shit that post is

 

[vegny]

Just listened to the Six Tackles with Gus Podcast. Many (not all) on here seem to respect Gus’ football knowledge from posts I’ve read - well - here’s what he just said:

‘Theres many factors regarding why clubs are where they’re at both in a successful or unsuccessful phase. During difficult times, changing one thing such as the coach will have little to no impact for example. Give Wayne Bennett the Bulldogs roster and they aren’t going to win many more games. If you ask those who know what they need - the answer is 5 or 6 quality players. Those players are not always available and you have to keep breeding your own. The minute you stop breeding, you’re in trouble for a long time’.

Hallelujah.
The prosecution rests.
The answer is in rebuilding our squad, not in shooting those who’ve had very little to work with.

And yes, to those who say no-one will sign while Pay remains coach - well soon enough we’ll see how true that is.

Not sure the reason but gus asked wrong question. Its not about whether bennett can do a better job or not with the current squad. The question should be can bennett improve us with additional 3 or 4m to spend on players? Records suggest likely. Can pay do that? We have to admit we dont know yet.

 

[bradyk]

What a first class crock of shit that post is

It's the truth, you don't like hearing it? We're favourites to beat the Titans and maybe the Warriors, that's about it. That's what it was before a ball was kicked.

 

[B-Train]

I've never seen such praise and support for a third year coach with a sub 33% win percentage. His teams also have the worst attack in the comp on average across those three seasons. And the worst for and against over the three seasons...

If that's what over achieving looks like, then I'd hate to see what underachieving looks like.

 

[maroondog72]

It's the truth, you don't like hearing it? We're favourites to beat the Titans and maybe the Warriors, that's about it. That's what it was before a ball was kicked.

You can’t handle the truth!!!!!! Lol muppet