Electric vs petrol cars

Blue_boost

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Every EV is different but in general they have battery protection software. They do things like precondition the battery (warm it up or cool it down) before you start charging. Some can do that based on the destination being set as a recharging station in the SatNav so you don't delay recharging. They also taper off the charge rate, I have seen as early as 60% charge were the rate drops from ~50 kWh down to ~30 kWh. Of course they all slow the charging rate over 75% and as it gets closer to 100% the charge is sometimes just a trickle.

That's why charging times are so often quoted as 10% to 80% because the last 20% can take as long as the 10% to 80% took.

The EV manufacturers know the fragility of their batteries and their cost so they do all manner of monitoring and software tricks to preserve them.


Always a Bulldog
I’ve seen those ridiculous ads that say charge your EV from 20% to 80% in x minutes.. so essentially it’s saying your giving up 40% range all the time? Don’t many EVs wind back the power when they tip below 70% charge.. it’s just a ludicrous way of doing things isn’t it. Compromise, then Compromise and then compromise again.

those high power charges deplete the battery capacity (bringing the cost of replacement sooner) and the low power slow charges take all week to charge. It’s a lose lose scenario… EV owners get a KO by uppercut or by hook.
 

Memberberries

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its All coming apart at the seams for EVs
I just checked the channel and these people are EV haters and have shares in sky news and fox!

They would be more credible if they were endorsed by CNN!
 

TwinTurbo

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I’ve seen those ridiculous ads that say charge your EV from 20% to 80% in x minutes.. so essentially it’s saying you’re giving up 40% range all the time?
It depends on what battery type the EV has, most recent models recommend charging to 100% as often as possible. It’s the time spent recharging that last 20% why most stop at 80% at charging stations. At home 100% every time.

Don’t many EVs wind back the power when they tip below 70% charge.. it’s just a ludicrous way of doing things isn’t it. Compromise, then Compromise and then compromise again.
I haven’t found that in any EV I’ve driven. I have only seen power limits when the battery overheats, which is hard to do anywhere but on a racetrack. If you have a recharging destination set in the sat nav some will adjust the power so that you make it. Which is useful, much like we do in an ICEV, back off the throttle to make it to the next servo.

those high power charges deplete the battery capacity (bringing the cost of replacement sooner) and the low power slow charges take all week to charge. It’s a lose lose scenario… EV owners get a KO by uppercut or by hook.
There‘s no real evidence of that, as long as the battery is thermally managed it will handle whatever charging rate it is specified for. Even 50 kWh is not considered “fast” these days, there are ever more EV’s that can handle 350 kWh. Finding a charging station with 350 kWh is what’s difficult, there aren’t that many around yet.


Always a Bulldog
 
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Psycho Doggie

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its All coming apart at the seams for EVs
The channel who made that video is so obviously propaganda. In their own description they say "Disclaimer - Our channel is made for entertainment purposes only, based on news, rumors, and speculation. Anything that is said in the videos is either opinion, criticism, information, or commentary. "

There is really only two possible reasons someone could choose to share such a video on a forum like TK:

1) They have practically zero ability in critical thought, or are so biased on the subject that no critical thought is possible even though the video is so clearly rubbish.
2) They are trolling.
 

Doogie

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The channel who made that video is so obviously propaganda. In their own description they say "Disclaimer - Our channel is made for entertainment purposes only, based on news, rumors, and speculation. Anything that is said in the videos is either opinion, criticism, information, or commentary. "

There is really only two possible reasons someone could choose to share such a video on a forum like TK:

1) They have practically zero ability in critical thought, or are so biased on the subject that no critical thought is possible even though the video is so clearly rubbish.
2) They are trolling.
TBF - there may be a third option.
3) You google redneck shit so the algorithm feeds you this stuff.
 

Precise

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Had our Model Y for 2 years now I think? Launch day anyway or coming up close to it, have saved $18,000 in fuel in that time alone (coming from an SQ5) without spending a cent on charging or servicing. If I tallied up servicing another $1,500 over 2 years at least.

For a family car you really can't go past them as an appliance.

In comparison I hate my fucking Raptor so much now even as the 'newer' car & can't wait for an electric ute hits here as a daily also.

Car yards, servicing, price haggling, all can die in a field of dicks. These people have no idea their jobs will be the next large replacement.
 

TwinTurbo

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Had our Model Y for 2 years now I think? Launch day anyway or coming up close to it, have saved $18,000 in fuel in that time alone (coming from an SQ5) without spending a cent on charging or servicing. If I tallied up servicing another $1,500 over 2 years at least.

For a family car you really can't go past them as an appliance.

In comparison I hate my fucking Raptor so much now even as the 'newer' car & can't wait for an electric ute hits here as a daily also.

Car yards, servicing, price haggling, all can die in a field of dicks. These people have no idea their jobs will be the next large replacement.
To save $9,000 in a year you would need to do around 45,000 km ($2 a litre, 10 litres per 100 km), that’s a hell of a lot if driving. A Model Y Long Range uses around 150 Wh/km (combined cycle) and has a 75 kWh 4680 NMC battery which means for 45,000 km charging 10% to 80% (Tesla recommendation) you would have recharged it 430 times. That’s more than once every day (1.2 times in fact) using an 11 kWh Tesla home charger it would take more than 5 hours to recharge once from 10% to 80%.

To do 45,000 km in a year it won’t be parked much during the daytime so recharging would mostly be done at night. Which means a home battery and recharging overnight. The largest Tesla home battery is 13.5 KWh and to recharge a 75 kWh Model Y battery 10% to 80% overnight would take 4 X Tesla Power Walls, at $13k each that‘s $52k.

To recharge 4 x Power Walls during the daytime, to give enough capacity to charge the Model Y 10% to 80% in winter, would need a solar system around 40 kWh. Cost around $40k.

The above doesn’t allow for electricity to run the house, that‘s just for recharging the Model Y at a cost of $92k. At $9k per year in fuel savings that’s 10.2 years pay back on solar panels and batteries that are warrantied for 10 years, risky.

Of course the above allows for 1 charge per day, but the Model Y would need 1.2 times per day average. I’m not sure how to go about that, going home in the middle of the day to top up for an hour or more or recharging at a Tesla fast changing station, which costs close to same (up to 85 cents per kWh) as buying petrol (per km travelled).

Surely I must be missing something here?


Always a Bulldog
 
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Hacky McAxe

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To save $9,000 in a year you would need to do around 45,000 km ($2 a litre, 10 litres per 100 km), that’s a hell of a lot if driving. A Model Y Long Range uses around 150 Wh/km (combined cycle) and has a 75 kWh 4680 NMC battery which means for 45,000 km charging 10% to 80% (Tesla recommendation) you would have recharged it 430 times. That’s more than once every day (1.2 times in fact) using an 11 kWh Tesla home charger it would take more than 5 hours to recharge once from 10% to 80%.

To do 45,000 km in a year it won’t be parked much during the daytime so recharging would mostly be done at night. Which means a home battery and recharging overnight. The largest Tesla home battery is 13.5 KWh and to recharge a 75 kWh Model Y battery 10% to 80% overnight would take 4 X Tesla Power Walls, at $13k each that‘s $52k.

To recharge 4 x Power Walls during the daytime, to give enough capacity to charge the Model Y 10% to 80% in winter, would need a solar system around 40 kWh. Cost around $40k.

The above doesn’t allow for electricity to run the house, that‘s just for recharging the Model Y at a cost of $92k. At $9k per year in fuel savings that’s 10.2 years pay back on solar panels and batteries that are warrantied for 10 years, risky.

Of course the above allows for 1 charge per day, but the Model Y would need 1.2 times per day average. I’m not sure how to go about that, going home in the middle of the day to top up for an hour or more or recharging at a Tesla fast changing station, which costs close to same (up to 85 cents per kWh) as buying petrol (per km travelled).

Surely I must be missing something here?


Always a Bulldog
I don't know about the Tesla stats, but I personally spend $11k - $15k per year on fuel at 9.5L/100km average. That's driving to and from work, driving around Sydney a bit each day, weekend driving, occasional long trips.

Most Central Coast people that work in Sydney and drive to work average 160km per day just driving to and from work. Pretty easy to rack up the kms if you're driving.

I had a look at one stage. If I bought a long range BYD, I would need to charge each night. And I don't have solar and batteries so I would be using a lot of electricity. It would still be a bit cheaper, but my savings wouldn't be huge.
 

TwinTurbo

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I don't know about the Tesla stats, but I personally spend $11k - $15k per year on fuel at 9.5L/100km average. That's driving to and from work, driving around Sydney a bit each day, weekend driving, occasional long trips.

Most Central Coast people that work in Sydney and drive to work average 160km per day just driving to and from work. Pretty easy to rack up the kms if you're driving.

I had a look at one stage. If I bought a long range BYD, I would need to charge each night. And I don't have solar and batteries so I would be using a lot of electricity. It would still be a bit cheaper, but my savings wouldn't be huge.
That's a lot of km's, at $2 a litre that's 5,500 to 7,500 litres and at 9.5L/100km that's 58,000 to 79,000 km's a year or 1200 to 1500 km's a week average.

The BYD Extended range is a decent EV choice as they have an LFP battery which can be charged to 100% every time, in fact it's recommended. Discharging below 10% whoever isn't recommend. They have a 60 kWh battery and on the freeway use around 19 kWh/100 km (I have driven one several times to Goulburn), as a result on a 10% to 100% charge they get around 280 kms. So you may well find that you need to recharged more than once per day depending on how many km's you do in that day.

They can be charged at a maximum of 80 kWh which means to charge from 10% to 100% will take theoretically around 40 minutes, but in my experience they won't accept 80 kWh over around 65% charge then they slow the charging rate. After that it becomes a range verses time wasted waiting around at a charging station decision. A 100% charge based on my experience will take around 1.25 hours, they really do slow the charging rate even through they have water cooling for the battery.

Paying for electricity for recharging would cost around $7,500 per year, that would depend on your rates and if you utilise off peak power.. If you were to go the solar/battery at home route and charge over night you would need to spend much the same as the example above, about $85k, a payback of around 11 years.



Always a Bulldog
 
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Doogie

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To save $9,000 in a year you would need to do around 45,000 km ($2 a litre, 10 litres per 100 km), that’s a hell of a lot if driving. A Model Y Long Range uses around 150 Wh/km (combined cycle) and has a 75 kWh 4680 NMC battery which means for 45,000 km charging 10% to 80% (Tesla recommendation) you would have recharged it 430 times. That’s more than once every day (1.2 times in fact) using an 11 kWh Tesla home charger it would take more than 5 hours to recharge once from 10% to 80%.

To do 45,000 km in a year it won’t be parked much during the daytime so recharging would mostly be done at night. Which means a home battery and recharging overnight. The largest Tesla home battery is 13.5 KWh and to recharge a 75 kWh Model Y battery 10% to 80% overnight would take 4 X Tesla Power Walls, at $13k each that‘s $52k.

To recharge 4 x Power Walls during the daytime, to give enough capacity to charge the Model Y 10% to 80% in winter, would need a solar system around 40 kWh. Cost around $40k.

The above doesn’t allow for electricity to run the house, that‘s just for recharging the Model Y at a cost of $92k. At $9k per year in fuel savings that’s 10.2 years pay back on solar panels and batteries that are warrantied for 10 years, risky.

Of course the above allows for 1 charge per day, but the Model Y would need 1.2 times per day average. I’m not sure how to go about that, going home in the middle of the day to top up for an hour or more or recharging at a Tesla fast changing station, which costs close to same (up to 85 cents per kWh) as buying petrol (per km travelled).

Surely I must be missing something here?


Always a Bulldog
45k per year is 123ish km per day. Pending what, where and how, that could be as little as 90mins of driving per day. Would you need to charge from 10% to 80% at night only on that daily demand?
 

TwinTurbo

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45k per year is 123ish km per day. Pending what, where and how, that could be as little as 90mins of driving per day. Would you need to charge from 10% to 80% at night only on that daily demand?
There are a lot variables with EV's more so than with ICEV's, for example EV's use more on the freeway while ICEV's use less. Ambient temperature also plays a part, when it's very cold or very hot EV's don't travel as far on a charge. Plus wind loading, I have seen the consumption jump up a lot when driving into a head wind, they really a lot on aerodynamics. They also don't like carrying loads, passengers, luggage and particularly towing, the drop off is far more than with an ICEV.

Back to the question, the 123 kms a day is assuming that the 45,000 km's was accumulated 7/365. Most km's are done during the week for the work commute, less public holidays and leave when maybe not using the car. Minus when the partner's car is utilised, weekend etc. Day to day most people with EV's don't stretch the range, they recharge more frequently than the theoretical. The poster did say "without spending a cent on charging" which means having taken no risk on needing to recharge away from home, hence recharging every night (or when the EV isn't being used) is unavoidable.


Always a Bulldog
 

Doogie

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There are a lot variables with EV's more so than with ICEV's, for example EV's use more on the freeway while ICEV's use less. Ambient temperature also plays a part, when it's very cold or very hot EV's don't travel as far on a charge. Plus wind loading, I have seen the consumption jump up a lot when driving into a head wind, they really a lot on aerodynamics. They also don't like carrying loads, passengers, luggage and particularly towing, the drop off is far more than with an ICEV.

Back to the question, the 123 kms a day is assuming that the 45,000 km's was accumulated 7/365. Most km's are done during the week for the work commute, less public holidays and leave when maybe not using the car. Minus when the partner's car is utilised, weekend etc. Day to day most people with EV's don't stretch the range, they recharge more frequently than the theoretical. The poster did say "without spending a cent on charging" which means having taken no risk on needing to recharge away from home, hence recharging every night (or when the EV isn't being used) is unavoidable.


Always a Bulldog
Yeah - thats all fair - you were asking what you missed. Your calcs assumed a full 10-80% charge was required every day. At, on average, 123km ish a day, thats highly unlikely.
 

TwinTurbo

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Yeah - thats all fair - you were asking what you missed. Your calcs assumed a full 10-80% charge was required every day. At, on average, 123km ish a day, thats highly unlikely.
All good, what I have learnt in driving EV's for 13 years is that to always go for the most conservative. Particularly when attempting to run one 100% off the grid as the poster said he does. A lot of days there simply isn't enough sunshine to charge even 1 x 13 kWh PowerWall with the average 7 kWh solar system, and 1 simply isn't ever enough to charge a Model Y overnight. Consecutive cloudy/rainy days and you are in deep shit, may not even be enough on many days for a 123 km charge. Plus of course I didn't include numbers for running the house, just the EV only.

This month my worst day from 10 kWh of solar panels was 17.8 kwh, the best day was 64.5 kWh. That's the variability I see with all solar systems, they simply can't be relied upon to deliver the "average" every day. So if you want to do all "off the grid" 24/7/365 then you need what appears to be gross overkill because solar power generation doesn't care about averages, you have to take into account the minimums.


Always a Bulldog
 

Rockford

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I have solar and charge my car via that, I just have to be mindful if I have the Ducted Aircon and charger going I'm pulling from the grid. Otherwise the solar is generating enough power to charge the car and power the rest of the house with minimal grid pull. I have free Supercharging for Life in any case. So 'fuel' costs for me are basically zero.
 

TwinTurbo

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I have solar and charge my car via that, I just have to be mindful if I have the Ducted Aircon and charger going I'm pulling from the grid. Otherwise the solar is generating enough power to charge the car and power the rest of the house with minimal grid pull. I have free Supercharging for Life in any case. So 'fuel' costs for me are basically zero.
That's "life" of the vehicle if it's a Tesla which means when you change vehicles that's gone, then it will cost .37 to .66 perkWh. Tesla terminated the offer of free use of superchargers for new cars on 31/12/23, no cars sold after that have it. Plus it only applies at Tesla chargers and often there is no choice but to use another. Enjoy it while you can.

Plus of course charging using solar forgoes the feed in tariff that would other wise accrue, which is in fact a cost.

Always a Bulldog
 

Hacky McAxe

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That's a lot of km's, at $2 a litre that's 5,500 to 7,500 litres and at 9.5L/100km that's 58,000 to 79,000 km's a year or 1200 to 1500 km's a week average.

The BYD Extended range is a decent EV choice as they have an LFP battery which can be charged to 100% every time, in fact it's recommended. Discharging below 10% whoever isn't recommend. They have a 60 kWh battery and on the freeway use around 19 kWh/100 km (I have driven one several times to Goulburn), as a result on a 10% to 100% charge they get around 280 kms. So you may well find that you need to recharged more than once per day depending on how many km's you do in that day.

They can be charged at a maximum of 80 kWh which means to charge from 10% to 100% will take theoretically around 40 minutes, but in my experience they won't accept 80 kWh over around 65% charge then they slow the charging rate. After that it becomes a range verses time wasted waiting around at a charging station decision. A 100% charge based on my experience will take around 1.25 hours, they really do slow the charging rate even through they have water cooling for the battery.

Paying for electricity for recharging would cost around $7,500 per year, that would depend on your rates and if you utilise off peak power.. If you were to go the solar/battery at home route and charge over night you would need to spend much the same as the example above, about $85k, a payback of around 11 years.



Always a Bulldog
I average around 200-300km per day weekdays. So I may get away with a single charge overnight if I have a decent charger. But that's an extra cost on top.
 

Precise

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To save $9,000 in a year you would need to do around 45,000 km ($2 a litre, 10 litres per 100 km), that’s a hell of a lot if driving. A Model Y Long Range uses around 150 Wh/km (combined cycle) and has a 75 kWh 4680 NMC battery which means for 45,000 km charging 10% to 80% (Tesla recommendation) you would have recharged it 430 times. That’s more than once every day (1.2 times in fact) using an 11 kWh Tesla home charger it would take more than 5 hours to recharge once from 10% to 80%.

To do 45,000 km in a year it won’t be parked much during the daytime so recharging would mostly be done at night. Which means a home battery and recharging overnight. The largest Tesla home battery is 13.5 KWh and to recharge a 75 kWh Model Y battery 10% to 80% overnight would take 4 X Tesla Power Walls, at $13k each that‘s $52k.

To recharge 4 x Power Walls during the daytime, to give enough capacity to charge the Model Y 10% to 80% in winter, would need a solar system around 40 kWh. Cost around $40k.

The above doesn’t allow for electricity to run the house, that‘s just for recharging the Model Y at a cost of $92k. At $9k per year in fuel savings that’s 10.2 years pay back on solar panels and batteries that are warrantied for 10 years, risky.

Of course the above allows for 1 charge per day, but the Model Y would need 1.2 times per day average. I’m not sure how to go about that, going home in the middle of the day to top up for an hour or more or recharging at a Tesla fast changing station, which costs close to same (up to 85 cents per kWh) as buying petrol (per km travelled).

Surely I must be missing something here?


Always a Bulldog
What ecoshit box does 10L/100km? My Raptor is around 15L on Premium and our SQ5 was around the same also on 98, so you can cut the figure in 1/3 again and re run those numbers for any luxury car.

We don't have a long range so Tesla recommend charging to 100% (new battery tech) compared to the long range.

My partner works from home full time, she does the vast majority of her driving dropping kids off and picking them up in the morning and afternoon or visiting the office when she has to before coming home.

These trips are 1 hr trips each time so 2.5 hours of driving a day just for the kids not allowing anything else, we also run an Airbnb 2 hours away that is a 4 hour round trip we attend twice a week, the car charges in peak solar times 99% of the time it falls on charging while she works, we have a 30kWh home system (it was $20,000 not $40,000) this generates more than enough that our home bill is also $0 per quarter and covers any night .

Not missing anything instead of just asking how this was possible you've come up with a bizzare scenario in your head to suit yourself where I require $90,000 up front cost to charge this car for free when all that happens is I charge it from the solar that was already installed pre car purchase so a sunk $0 cost.

I love ice cars, you're talking to someone who owns a VL Calais, Honda NSX, HQ panelvan & Jaguar XJ12 as weekend toys.

As a mode of low cost transportation you cannot beat an EV, it's the future and if it doesn't suit you because you cross the Simpsons desert every weekend that's fine for now but people are already road tripping the entirety of Australia in teslas.

(buy your solar panels and inverters from reputable companies also, our panels are 30 years and our inverter 20) a battery doesn't make much sense while we still have 7 cent feed in tariff making up for night usage. On good days we're hitting close to 250kWh generated.
 
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