The Burton conundrum

[capt obvious]

1. Drinkwater
6. Burton
7. Trindall
9. Mahoney

 

[CrittaMagic69]

1. Drinkwater
6. Burton
7. Trindall
9. Mahoney

Drinkwater isn't leaving and lol at trindall. Trindall has only ever looked good when someone else has control of the team and he's freed up, not a halfback option at all.

 

[Magic Arrow]

Give him next season with a competent half next to him who organises everything. And let him run the ball. Mahoneys service will benefit him and ensure he’s playing off the front foot. He’s nowhere near the finished product. We’ll get that in his last 2 years of his extended deal. He’ll benefit next year from our recruits.

Who is the competent organising half available you expect us to recruit next year? Literally the only one is Hunt and he’s gonna take a bag and a half to get while he’s in his mid 30s. All I hear from people is this imaginary half partner for Burton who doesn’t really exist in the NRL atm.

Let me play devil’s advocate. With three world class 6s available next year we should be throwing the bag at one of them. Run a two pronged attack like Melbourne where both share duties. Hughes doesnt really solely organise and neither does Munster. Both have running games and both are a threat at the line. Burton played his best games next to Luai because having a ball player next to him allowed Burton to be running onto the ball close to the line which is what made his so dangerous at Penrith.

 

[Nate DAWG]

Daily Telegraph article has Reynolds earning 800k which is what he was reportedly asking at the time he signed.

Wow...my bad then. The club not going for Reynolds and opting for TPJ is fkn mind blowing when all we had was Flanno and Avo for 7

 

[Jebbundy]

He’s a young half doing everything, avo isn’t creative, jmk has gone back in his shell and flanno adds nothing, the poor bloke is doing everything, sometimes well sometimes he goes missing, but in reality he’s got no back up bar jac, the lad looks exhausted after his first yr at 5/8 under 2 coaches, what’s he done? He’s saved us from the wooden spoon. Boom he’s done his job, now it’s Gus and ciraldo to move the right players around him to make the next step. We have a 9 and some extra grunt coming next yr, he needs a 7 and 1. Some better creativity, also a centre that can steam roll some defence, questions have to be asked of schoupp and burns, Burton is a great player in a team that’s not up to scratch, but we aren’t manly or the tigers this weekend. They have million dollar halves. Happy to see him grow.

 

[CMP]

Imo Burton is better suited to fullback or playing a fullback type role in attack at this stage of his career because he just looks like he struggles big time when he's required to play into the line and create space for his outside men. This is the issue a lot of our players have and I'm sure our football is probably a contributing factor too. Maybe with better dh service, Kikau running better lines, better combinations, better go forward, etc he improves and it's not a big issue but personally I just feel he's more comfortable as an out and our ball runner working off space others create and only really being required to throw that final ball to the winger/centre. Munster followed a similar path in first grade, from centre to fullback and then eventually 5/8.

This is definitely an option to explore. The issue is we have nobody else in the halves at NRL level.

 

[Dogtime]

By all account we’ve made a sizeable offer to retain Matt Burton to be our long term five-eighth for the next five years. Like many others, I’m pleased that we’re locking our future into a bright young player. But there’s still a pressing issue with Burton that I don’t think we know the answer to yet, other than his kicking range (vertically and horizontally) what skill does he do so well that we are basically making him our marquee signing for the next five years.

Before everyone get’s their pitchforks out, I’d hate to lose this kid. He’s literally the most exciting player we’ve had since Ben Barba. His signature presents a bigger problem in my opinion; who do you pair him with? From what we’ve seen this season he doesn’t have the organisational ability to play the seven role and be paired with a Dylan Brown or Cody Walker type player. On the flip side, his running game isn’t on the same level as elite 5/8s such as Walker, Brown, Wighton, Luai and Munster. Is this kid’s left boot really the reason we’re about to give him close to a million dollar a season?

The weird thing is I’d still give it to him. We can’t afford to lose this kid. But I still don’t know who I’d want to be his partner in the halves. Everyone is crying out for a new 7 to organise the team but I’m not convinced of Burton’s ability to run at the defence. If he’s our primary attacking player we’re not gonna be a great attacking team.

And that’s the conundrum. How many halfbacks are there that can organise a team and be the primary attacking threat? Literally none. Maybe Hynes and Hughes but they’re locked up long term. Are we better off throwing Burton at 7 and betting that he can learn to organise a team while we pair him with a player who can be our focal point in attack? The three best 6s off contract next year are Walker, Munster and Brown. The three 7s are Hunt, Brooks and Hastings.

Let me know your opinions.

Your spot on. I have gone to every Dogs game in Sydney this year, and been disappointed with Burton....I'm trying to work out what he does, other than some high kicks, that is at the elite level.
Again on Saturday v Eels, sitting behind the posts in 2nd deck, you get a great view of play developing. It's clear whose calling the plays, whose organising the runners, who's calling for the ball. It ain't Burton.
JMK and Flanagan do everything. Neither Burton or Averillo call for the ball. JMK rather works play towards Burton who parks himself permanently on the left, so he can feed him the ball on the 5th. for a high or long kick.

He doesn't roam left to right, side to side, he doesn't organise other runners, he generally is very quiet. He never goes looking for the ball, it's not obvious that he's counting the numbers in defence and demanding the ball.

Lets be honest. Despite his shortcomings, he's one of those players that would make any side better. He was fed the ball on a platter by Penriths left side last year, where he finished off backline movements, becoming centre of the year in the process. He's strong, plays with passion and has a great high kick, but nothing else. He's a good player looking for a position.

He's too quiet to be a 6 or 7. He's performed best at left centre, he could possibly transition to a fullback or lock.

The hype around Burton is completely unjustified. His passing game is not at the elite half level, he doesn't have a lethal step off either foot, he doesn't possess blistering pace off the mark, or an elite top speed, you don't think of him as having a deft pass or soft hands, he doesn't get involved in most plays in a set. Looking at Eels defensive line today, they ignore Burton, as no plays, other than the high kick come off him. He's not a threat to the defence.

Dare I say it, he's still learning and needs mentoring about what an elite 5/8th does. So disappointing Barrett didn't get him buzzing, as he was an elite 5/8th.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that's noticed. What's he worth?....maybe $650k pa. We can't keep him for that, but compare him to elite halves in Munster, Hunt, Brown, Moses, Kearey, Walker, Hughes, Cherry Evans, Hynes, Reynolds, even Wighton, he's not in the same postcode as to what these guys can do.
Basically, there aren't enough elite halves to go around, so how we solve our halves problem I don't know. But I've got a good idea. We've established there's a lack of enough elite halves, so why don't we spread the talent even thinner by having more teams. What a brilliant idea.

We have ourselves a Burton Conundrum. No doubt Ciraldo will fix it.

 

[Pappydog]

By all account we’ve made a sizeable offer to retain Matt Burton to be our long term five-eighth for the next five years. Like many others, I’m pleased that we’re locking our future into a bright young player. But there’s still a pressing issue with Burton that I don’t think we know the answer to yet, other than his kicking range (vertically and horizontally) what skill does he do so well that we are basically making him our marquee signing for the next five years.

Before everyone get’s their pitchforks out, I’d hate to lose this kid. He’s literally the most exciting player we’ve had since Ben Barba. His signature presents a bigger problem in my opinion; who do you pair him with? From what we’ve seen this season he doesn’t have the organisational ability to play the seven role and be paired with a Dylan Brown or Cody Walker type player. On the flip side, his running game isn’t on the same level as elite 5/8s such as Walker, Brown, Wighton, Luai and Munster. Is this kid’s left boot really the reason we’re about to give him close to a million dollar a season?

The weird thing is I’d still give it to him. We can’t afford to lose this kid. But I still don’t know who I’d want to be his partner in the halves. Everyone is crying out for a new 7 to organise the team but I’m not convinced of Burton’s ability to run at the defence. If he’s our primary attacking player we’re not gonna be a great attacking team.

And that’s the conundrum. How many halfbacks are there that can organise a team and be the primary attacking threat? Literally none. Maybe Hynes and Hughes but they’re locked up long term. Are we better off throwing Burton at 7 and betting that he can learn to organise a team while we pair him with a player who can be our focal point in attack? The three best 6s off contract next year are Walker, Munster and Brown. The three 7s are Hunt, Brooks and Hastings.

Let me know your opinions.

Good points. But he has a great running game.

We should sign the young Dragons half back that isn’t getting a look in because of Hunt. By all accounts, he’s the real deal

 

[CrittaMagic69]

This is definitely an option to explore. The issue is we have nobody else in the halves at NRL level.

Storm beat the Panthers with a halves pairing of Meaney and Johns just last week....so while i do think our halves are an issue i also think there's a few things we could try that might lead to better results next season. Bellamy made other positional and tactical changes like moving NAS to an edge while making the halves main focus pretty much just to get the ball to Munster in space and relying on him and their edge runners to produce points. Obviously Burton is far from Munsters level but i feel it's something we can look to, even 2012 under Des is another example. I think one of the big issues today is coaches all trying to replicate the same sort of style and while they totally ignore the type of players the squad actually has.

 

[Magic Arrow]

Your spot on. I have gone to every Dogs game in Sydney this year, and been disappointed with Burton....I'm trying to work out what he does, other than some high kicks, that is at the elite level.
Again on Saturday v Eels, sitting behind the posts in 2nd deck, you get a great view of play developing. It's clear whose calling the plays, whose organising the runners, who's calling for the ball. It ain't Burton.
JMK and Flanagan do everything. Neither Burton or Averillo call for the ball. JMK rather works play towards Burton who parks himself permanently on the left, so he can feed him the ball on the 5th. for a high or long kick.

He doesn't roam left to right, side to side, he doesn't organise other runners, he generally is very quiet. He never goes looking for the ball, it's not obvious that he's counting the numbers in defence and demanding the ball.

Lets be honest. Despite his shortcomings, he's one of those players that would make any side better. He was fed the ball on a platter by Penriths left side last year, where he finished off backline movements, becoming centre of the year in the process. He's strong, plays with passion and has a great high kick, but nothing else. He's a good player looking for a position.

He's too quiet to be a 6 or 7. He's performed best at left centre, he could possibly transition to a fullback or lock.

The hype around Burton is completely unjustified. His passing game is not at the elite half level, he doesn't have a lethal step off either foot, he doesn't possess blistering pace off the mark, or an elite top speed, you don't think of him as having a deft pass or soft hands, he doesn't get involved in most plays in a set. Looking at Eels defensive line today, they ignore Burton, as no plays, other than the high kick come off him. He's not a threat to the defence.

Dare I say it, he's still learning and needs mentoring about what an elite 5/8th does. So disappointing Barrett didn't get him buzzing, as he was an elite 5/8th.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that's noticed. What's he worth?....maybe $650k pa. We can't keep him for that, but compare him to elite halves in Munster, Hunt, Brown, Moses, Kearey, Walker, Hughes, Cherry Evans, Hynes, Reynolds, even Wighton, he's not in the same postcode as to what these guys can do.
Basically, there aren't enough elite halves to go around, so how we solve our halves problem I don't know. But I've got a good idea. We've established there's a lack of enough elite halves, so why don't we spread the talent even thinner by having more teams. What a brilliant idea.

We have ourselves a Burton Conundrum. No doubt Ciraldo will fix it.

You have described Burton’s game better than I ever could. This is exactly what I was looking for in this thread. 100% agree with everything you just said. Burton at 650? No issues, versatile, play him wherever you need him and if a better spine player comes up you can still make a play. At 900, you’re basically committing to him being that guy in your squad and hoping he grows into it.

 

[Flanagun]

Wighton an elite half? It’s not 2019, bro

 

[speedy2460]

There seems to be to much emphasis placed on Burtons kicking game. He does little except wait for the final pass.
I think he should be a centre. But that means we do not have a 1/2 or a 5/8.

 

[wendog33]

I really feel apart from developing a brief combo with JAC, this season is a waste as he is the whole spine by himself.

I think round 10 next year we will know if he is the real deal or not with at least Mahoney and hopefully a FB that can help him instead of being carried by him.

You can't learn your trade carrying deadwood on your back.

BUT he has been rubbish last 3 games....looks like he is just tired/over this season.

That careless tip on attempt (whatever it was) summed it up probably.

The lack of respect for ball possession in this team is disgraceful really. Can't even begin to contest a game without the ball and they don't treasure it.

 

[Bulldog1966]

I'd argue he has a pretty decent left foot step too, he just isn't running the ball much or at all.

 

[Pottz]

There are some really great posts in this thread, most of which agree that we need and want Burton in the side but the conundrum is where and how to play him.

On his running game, it is clearly in there and he has shown it a bit this year but whereas at Penrith he was expected to do it (at least when playing centre), I get the sense that Barrett and Potter have both told him to instead focus on kicking and attacking the left side late in sets. Maybe they figured if they keep it simple for him with fewer expectations it would take the heat off and let him grow into a five eighth at his own pace. Maybe they also figured that the more running he does, the more likely he’s out of position at the end of the set and that leaves Flanagan or Averillo directing the last play and we all know how that’s gonna work out. The few times Burton has taken a run it’s obvious that he has pace and can get around or through the defence.

All of this is just to say what others have said, we need a halfback who can be relied on to organise and can handle a fifth tackle play so that Burton is not the focal point and can pick his moments. I think the club believes that halfback is BBO but he hasn’t gotten a proper look all year so who knows. Lots can happen in the offseason and Gus will be all over it you’d think (hope).

 

[gibbo2]

Mahoney will help unlock his running game. Ability to hit him 2 wide of the ruck rather passing through the hands will give him much more time to run. .Watchig yesterdays game It was really evident what we will get out of signing Reed . Moses and
Brown had so much more time and space due to the width of his passes than our halves did . But yeah we probably do need an organising 7 with a short kicking game to compliment him

 

[KLil]

We should've taken Adam Reynolds when he was available. We should have taken Ben Hunt instead of letting him re-sign with dragons

We need an experienced head leading the team and mentoring our youngsters for a couple of seasons eg Penrith with James Maloney for Cleary.

I dont think Munster is what we need and I wouldn't be putting Burton as 7.

Maybe even look at bringing Sezer for a year or 2.

Would have been nice to sign Hynes and Burton at the same time..

 

[Ant2611]

I really feel apart from developing a brief combo with JAC, this season is a waste as he is the whole spine by himself.

I think round 10 next year we will know if he is the real deal or not with at least Mahoney and hopefully a FB that can help him instead of being carried by him.

You can't learn your trade carrying deadwood on your back.

BUT he has been rubbish last 3 games....looks like he is just tired/over this season.

They all do...Sin

 

[Ant2611]

They all do...Sin

Sin sounds better than Ass. Mind you I have sinned with a few Asses in my time.....human female ones if you are wondering....

 

[D.O.W.]

All I'll say is his running game is his best asset and he doesn't utilise it.

So true, far more dangerous if he took on the line more. This would make his combination with JAC far less predictable. It also doesn’t help that he finds Schoupp frequently and Schoupp literally dies with the ball, he’s not thinking pass or draw and pass.