The Afghanistan/Taliban - Thread

steeliz

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Trump was nowhere near as bad as the Democrats, the establishment and the media made him out to be... not to say he did not make mistakes... for example, his unilateral transfer of the US Embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem effectively took the US out out of the discussion as an impartial contributor to a potential lasting peace in the Middle East... and he did it without consultation with the rest of the international community

but there was a concerted campaign by the left leaning media and establishment to attack every action taken by the Trump Administration and downplay any good action taken --> he was racist, sexist, a sexual offender, corrupt, a xenophobe, a Russian mole, a criminal, stupid, in mental and physical decline etc... it was stunning to watch, especially considering the positive press he had pre-politics

Biden has never been competent for the presidency... at his political prime (ie. 1988 election), he dropped out early as he was seen for what he was --> a superficial, lightweight plagiarist... in 2008, he was irrelevant behind Obama, Hillary Clinton and co... and now, as a near 80 year old in clear physical and decline, he is elected with a record 81 million votes... rubbish

for the record, the worst US President of the modern era is George W. Bush... and it is not even close
You have had way too much of the coolaid if you actually think the Democrats and Republicans aren't as bad as each other.

Don't forget Reagan funded the Taliban against the USSR. The Contra shit and that is off the top of my head.

Republican or Democrat is not the problem. The problem is the American attitude to the rest of the world.

The only thing Trump did successfully was actually manage to make Biden look passable in comparison.
 

steeliz

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Haven’t heard of it sorry mate. The Middle East are always at war, it’s like trying to keep up with days of our lives
Middle East is a mess.

My point was that this is an American thing not a Democrat / Republican thing and the US has a long history of doing this all over the world.

I just didn't express myself very eloquently.
 

CaptainJackson

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actually, I was simply explaining why I believe the Taliban can still get some value out of the military aircraft left by the US
Thats great but it's got nothing to do within the context of why that military equipment was left behind, which is what was being discussed and criticism levied at Biden.

The 'why' being the US gifted that equipment, over the course of 20 years, to the Afghan army for nation building. Something Biden called out as bullshit when VP under Obama.
 

CaptainJackson

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You have had way too much of the coolaid if you actually think the Democrats and Republicans aren't as bad as each other.

Don't forget Reagan funded the Taliban against the USSR. The Contra shit and that is off the top of my head.

Republican or Democrat is not the problem. The problem is the American attitude to the rest of the world.

The only thing Trump did successfully was actually manage to make Biden look passable in comparison.
He's not saying that (republican or democrats being worse than one another), he's saying Trump was given special attention by the media solely because he was an outsider, something he's so far failed to prove.
 

steeliz

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He's not saying that (republican or democrats being worse than one another), he's saying Trump was given special attention by the media solely because he was an outsider, something he's so far failed to prove.
I know.

But I don't have the time to provoke the Trump sheep today (as much as I enjoy that).
 

alchemist

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He's not saying that (republican or democrats being worse than one another), he's saying Trump was given special attention by the media solely because he was an outsider, something he's so far failed to prove.
not solely but a substantial factor, yes
 

alchemist

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Thats great but it's got nothing to do within the context of why that military equipment was left behind, which is what was being discussed and criticism levied at Biden.

The 'why' being the US gifted that equipment, over the course of 20 years, to the Afghan army for nation building. Something Biden called out as bullshit when VP under Obama.
I was responding to your post about the military aircraft being useless
 

wendog33

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in truth, I think that is just Biden's incompetence at play and Kamala Harris playing the long game and not wanting to get involved
Not just Biden's incompetence.
 

alchemist

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Not just Biden's incompetence.
Australia's role in Afghanistan and Iraq was to provide legitimacy to the invasions rather than have some substantive role or say... so, not unusual we got snubbed
 

wendog33

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Australia's role in Afghanistan and Iraq was to provide legitimacy to the invasions rather than have some substantive role or say... so, not unusual we got snubbed
Not good enough an excuse, I don't believe and 41 families agree.
 

CaptainJackson

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not solely but a substantial factor, yes
Either solely or substantial, I'm afraid you haven't really indicated any prevailing evidence. The evidence you have provided thus far can be explained by Trump bringing that upon himself in am environment that he knows nothing of and knows not how to handle and vice versa with that environments dealings of an individual like Trump

But to say bias to this? No
 

alchemist

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Either solely or substantial, I'm afraid you haven't really indicated any prevailing evidence. The evidence you have provided thus far can be explained by Trump bringing that upon himself in am environment that he knows nothing of and knows not how to handle and vice versa with that environments dealings of an individual like Trump

But to say bias to this? No
see, you state that it can be explained but not that it is explained by Trump bringing it on himself... it can also be explained that a populist, outsider Trump unbeholden to the system, the donors, the PACs, the lobbyists, the career politicians, the media, the military industrial complex etc. vowing (whether he was genuine or not) to drain the swamp was a threat to said system and the system took an antagonistic approach to him in response

but I will concede on this point... I think I am on solid ground when it comes to the overwhelmingly negative focus (eg. the Russian collusion story) and certain bad acts (eg. Michael Flynn entrapment and prosecution) against Trump and that it was disproportionate as compared to other politicians... I can't though demonstrate conclusively that the response to Trump by the media was the system's response to - as Michael Moore put it - the biggest f*+# you in history to the elite when the American people voted in Trump in 2016 over Hillary... nor can you for your point of view

it could simply be ratings as I think Ted Koppel put to Brian Stelter... it could be Trump being his own worst enemy etc.
 
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CaptainJackson

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see, you state that it can be explained but not that it is explained by Trump bringing it on himself... it can also be explained that a populist, outsider Trump unbeholden to the system, the donors, the PACs, the lobbyists, the career politicians, the media, the military industrial complex etc. vowing (whether he was genuine or not) to drain the swamp was a threat to said system and the system took an antagonistic approach to him in response


but I will concede on this point... I think I am on solid ground when it comes to the overwhelmingly negative focus (eg. the Russian collusion story) and certain bad acts (eg. Michael Flynn entrapment and prosecution) against Trump and that it was disproportionate as compared to other politicians... I can't though demonstrate conclusively that the response to Trump by the media was the system's response to - as Michael Moore put it - the biggest f*+# you in history to the elite when the American people voted in Trump in 2016 over Hillary... nor can you for your point of view


it could simply be ratings as I think Ted Koppel put to Brian Stelter... it could be Trump being his own worst enemy etc.

No, I very much did clearly state Trump brought it upon himself, here "explained by Trump bringing that upon himself in am environment that he knows nothing of and knows not how to handle" ie his own actions blithering about in the dark.


The system taking an antagonistic approach to him is not an outlier though, that's not reserved for Trump. Whether it be the GOP or Democratic nominees, each sides corporate donors have their preference and therefore throw their weight and "bias" behind their favoured representative.


You're claiming that Trump received special treatment outside of this already existing political machination. Once Trump won the GOP primary that same GOP political machination threw their weight behind Trump, it's no different to any other candidate who wins a primary they're not expected to.


I'd tend to think that any campaign that knowingly sought help from a foreign power, who had been that nations biggest rival over the course of century, would garner quite a lot of interest. The fact that several individuals, as a consequence of investigations, were actually charged and convicted would suggest it was a bloody big story and deserved the attention it got.


As far as Michael flynn is concerned, unfortunately this is an actual whataboutism debate and I can just as easily point to the Benghazi report to again underline this isn't outlier behaviour in the political machination.


And I don't need to prove anything. The onus is on you, you're making the assertion, innocent until proven guilty remember?


But again I will link to a bias in defending Trump and his actions and claiming he was unfairly treated. And I will address that being a member of a particular political party is not an indication of lack of bias eg a former leader of the Labor party who now is a state senator for a far right party, Mark Latham.
 

alchemist

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No, I very much did clearly state Trump brought it upon himself, here "explained by Trump bringing that upon himself in am environment that he knows nothing of and knows not how to handle" ie his own actions blithering about in the dark.


The system taking an antagonistic approach to him is not an outlier though, that's not reserved for Trump. Whether it be the GOP or Democratic nominees, each sides corporate donors have their preference and therefore throw their weight and "bias" behind their favoured representative.


You're claiming that Trump received special treatment outside of this already existing political machination. Once Trump won the GOP primary that same GOP political machination threw their weight behind Trump, it's no different to any other candidate who wins a primary they're not expected to.


I'd tend to think that any campaign that knowingly sought help from a foreign power, who had been that nations biggest rival over the course of century, would garner quite a lot of interest. The fact that several individuals, as a consequence of investigations, were actually charged and convicted would suggest it was a bloody big story and deserved the attention it got.


As far as Michael flynn is concerned, unfortunately this is an actual whataboutism debate and I can just as easily point to the Benghazi report to again underline this isn't outlier behaviour in the political machination.


And I don't need to prove anything. The onus is on you, you're making the assertion, innocent until proven guilty remember?


But again I will link to a bias in defending Trump and his actions and claiming he was unfairly treated. And I will address that being a member of a particular political party is not an indication of lack of bias eg a former leader of the Labor party who now is a state senator for a far right party, Mark Latham.
this really is a whole lot of nothing

you clearly state that Trump brought it on himself with his antagonistic approach to the media and I believe there were particular interests in going after Trump and I have provided examples of what I believe is the unbalanced approach when it comes to the treatment of Trump... but I have at least been prepared to concede that there can be other factors --> something lefties are incapable of doing

now, with regard to the Republican and Democratic machines throwing their weight behind their candidates, this is true and I will go further and concede the reluctance of the likes of Cruz, Rubio, Kasich etc. to immediately support Trump after he became the Republican nominee is likely due to a personal rather than establishment motive... but there are issues and interests in the US that go beyond the party divide... for example, JFK spoke of the need for a Medicare for all system in the US as far back as the 1960's and yet, no such system exists despite plenty of Democratic and Republican presidents since... why? there is too much money in the pharmaceutical industry to allow the government to cut out the middle man and Big Pharma has in effect bought out both sides of the aisle... hence, the Bernie Sanders, the squad, the progressive push for Medicare for all, force the vote etc. is all bullsh*t... never going to happen

another such interest which crosses the political divide is the military... the US has been aggressive in their foreign policy throughout the world from when Truman - wrongfully IMO - dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and it hasn't really mattered who was in power to see the influence of this on their foreign policy... in fact, the two modern presidents that are viewed as the worst are Carter and Trump and from memory, they are the only two not to involve the US in a new conflict during their presidency... this is why I brought up Greenwald earlier in this thread because he theorised that at least part of the reason all mainstream media was going after Biden this last week or so was the US military industrial complex wanted to stay in Afghanistan

and you get nowhere with the Russian collusion aspect... the Clintons had their pay to play with donations made to their foundation for years by foreign governments, regimes, NGOs etc. and in fact the whole Russian collusion started with Hillary's campaign worried about her own links to and going soft on Russia (eg. the Uranium deal while she was Secretary of State) and so threw all that onto Trump

"whataboutism" is just a deflection... you live in a country in which the legal system is predicated on precedent - "stare decisis"... determining matters in line with how like situations have previously been decided... and that is if the situations are even somewhat comparable, which I don't see how they are --> an attack on a US ambassador overseas vs the manipulation of the justice system to investigate a political opponent domestically... the Michael Flynn investigation and prosecution was a disgrace and unworthy of a nation supposedly with the rule of law - the FBI tampered with evidence, Sztrok, his FBI mistress, entrapping Flynn, abusing the FISA court and warrant system, deliberately ignoring the fact that the subject of the warrant was a CIA asset (?) etc... it was so bad, the US government withdrew charges AFTER Flynn pleaded guilty

this is why the US is so f*+#ed up at the moment... people are so tribal in their thinking (like you) that they cannot take a principled position and make concessions where concessions should be made... rather they simply act in bad faith and side with like minded people regardless of the merits of the matter

so, there is no onus on you and the other cancel culture crew to substantiate any of the rubbish you have spouted in this thread? well, isn't that convenient... anyone that disagrees with you is a sheep or a cultist etc. without any need for you to prove anything... Orwellian almost... like something out of "Animal Farm" with the "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others"

and the "innocent until proven guilty" is a criminal law presumption
 
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