News Robodebt Royal Commission

Natboy

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They were.being harrassed. Also the government 'stole' some of their savings to payback a non existent debt.
That would be very hard mate but suicide is pretty extreme, especially if it was free money taken back
 

Psycho Doggie

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But back to my point, in that if people are already financially struggling and have financial stress, then if Centrelink are saying they have an imaginary debt (and enforcing it), that could definitely break some people.

The question needs to be asked though, how did the debt (and subsequent chasing), end up on the system to begin with. Like was it information miskeyed, or a systems glitch that applied debt to a select number of customers, etc. That's what I meant by that debt doesn't just come from nowhere.
This is in many ways a big subject, with some hefty questions. I'll give some straight to the point information, but am conscious that this information raises other questions.

In a nutshell, figures of debt for individuals were arrived at by income averaging. Income averaging is an algorithm which is used as financial modelling, for example for to figure out a provisional tax rate for what are called "Special Professionals", people in the arts or sports etc who tend to earn money in clumps. A centrelink debt as calculated using an income averaging algorithm was deemed legal by the DSS. That is where the debt comes from. It wasn't on the books, the algorithm created it, and once created the hundreds of thousands of people found to be in debt via this method were notified as having to either pay up, or prove that they didn't owe a debt.

Now, the court has already found that this process of deeming a person to be in debt based on the income averaging algorithm is illegal, that is done and dusted. The process now (the RC) is supposed to figure out how it came to this, in theory so as to prevent it from happening again, we can hope.

For some good case studies as to what this process meant for every day people, check these accounts (clicky).
 

Gene Krupa

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That would be very hard mate but suicide is pretty extreme, especially if it was free money taken back
It was the person savings. The money was stolen from their accounts by the goverment, hlfor a debt they didn't owe.
 

Natboy

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It was the person savings. The money was stolen from their accounts by the goverment, hlfor a debt they didn't owe.
Oh ok, my apologies. I thought it was all people on government benefits and didn’t follow it very closely to be honest
 

SPEARTAKVIDREFS

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This is in many ways a big subject, with some hefty questions. I'll give some straight to the point information, but am conscious that this information raises other questions.

In a nutshell, figures of debt for individuals were arrived at by income averaging. Income averaging is an algorithm which is used as financial modelling, for example for to figure out a provisional tax rate for what are called "Special Professionals", people in the arts or sports etc who tend to earn money in clumps. A centrelink debt as calculated using an income averaging algorithm was deemed legal by the DSS. That is where the debt comes from. It wasn't on the books, the algorithm created it, and once created the hundreds of thousands of people found to be in debt via this method were notified as having to either pay up, or prove that they didn't owe a debt.

Now, the court has already found that this process of deeming a person to be in debt based on the income averaging algorithm is illegal, that is done and dusted. The process now (the RC) is supposed to figure out how it came to this, in theory so as to prevent it from happening again, we can hope.

For some good case studies as to what this process meant for every day people, check these accounts (clicky).
bummer, I tried clicking on the links of the individual stories and the links failed for me. Did they work for you?

edit- never mind, theyre working now :grinning:
 

wendog33

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This is in many ways a big subject, with some hefty questions. I'll give some straight to the point information, but am conscious that this information raises other questions.

In a nutshell, figures of debt for individuals were arrived at by income averaging. Income averaging is an algorithm which is used as financial modelling, for example for to figure out a provisional tax rate for what are called "Special Professionals", people in the arts or sports etc who tend to earn money in clumps. A centrelink debt as calculated using an income averaging algorithm was deemed legal by the DSS. That is where the debt comes from. It wasn't on the books, the algorithm created it, and once created the hundreds of thousands of people found to be in debt via this method were notified as having to either pay up, or prove that they didn't owe a debt.

Now, the court has already found that this process of deeming a person to be in debt based on the income averaging algorithm is illegal, that is done and dusted. The process now (the RC) is supposed to figure out how it came to this, in theory so as to prevent it from happening again, we can hope.

For some good case studies as to what this process meant for every day people, check these accounts (clicky).
Have you been watching the RC live, or following on Twitter PD?

It's an eye opener... the level of collusion by the APS from the top to bottom of their hierarchy. They all look totally compromised; not to mention the level of forgetfulness and loss of memory! RC continues this with week with some very interesting witnesses to give evidence lol.

Commissioner Holmes AC SC is a terrier and doesn't suffer fools. Love her work.
 

Psycho Doggie

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I knew it was an error, didn’t panic and had the means to sort it out. To commit suicide over a debt is pretty extreme though and those poor people may have had underlying mental issues unfortunately :(
This seems to be a major part of the disconnect between the DSS and the reality of the every day people affected. Many of the people who got notices simply don't have ready access to Accountants and Lawyers. The thing is, Centrelink has a pretty good idea which people on its books are vulnerable in some way, they are flagged as vulnerable and the system has had various iterations of vulnerability indexes and measures. Initially persons so marked were left out of robodebt. Later they decided to include them in the whole thing anyway.

There can be no doubt that there were suicides over this.
 

Psycho Doggie

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Have you been watching the RC live, or following on Twitter PD?

It's an eye opener... the level of collusion by the APS from the top to bottom of their hierarchy. They all look totally compromised; not to mention the level of forgetfulness and loss of memory! RC continues this with week with some very interesting witnesses to give evidence lol.

Commissioner Holmes AC SC is a terrier and doesn't suffer fools. Love her work.
I have watched some of it, and I know of some of the key people involved, have worked with close colleagues, that sort of thing. By all reports very upstanding, very good people.
 

Natboy

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I have watched some of it, and I know of some of the key people involved, have worked with close colleagues, that sort of thing. By all reports very upstanding, very good people.
What lessons will come from this mate? We know robodebts won’t happen again anyway so is it just a political witch-hunt or will we see more changes? I wish unsolicited election phone calls were illegal. My number is private but I hate the idea of them and it’s usually the same type of people
 

Psycho Doggie

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What lessons will come from this mate? We know robodebts won’t happen again anyway so is it just a political witch-hunt or will we see more changes? I wish unsolicited election phone calls were illegal. My number is private but I hate the idea of them and it’s usually the same type of people
Some of the people I speak with would like to see a big rethink as to how algorithms are deployed, with efforts to understand the subject at some pretty deep levels. The RC has some interest for them, although it would certainly help if some of the people involved were more forthcoming. There are certainly plenty of other levels of interest as well, public administration researchers, policy studies experts, etc. The sewer level of politics is unfortunately inevitable. As a fairly apolitical person, I'm resigned to it. All political groups of every flavour indulge in it, so it is sometimes amusing to see them all pointing at each other and getting red in the face. It isn't amusing for long though, as the politics tends to get in the way of the facts. Less rhetoric, more plain talking please.
 

Alan79

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Quite possibly. I honestly haven't followed it too closely.

I've been on Jobseeker in recent times, and the system (at least from what I can tell) is pretty infalliable.

You report each fortnight you and your partners earnings and hours, and that then reduces the amount you get from Centrelink.

They already know my partners income, so can check bank records if I'm lieing to them or misreporting.

That said I can certainly understand that people on Centrelink would be those struggling the most. I've literally had $20 in my bank account some weeks, and coupled with the fact I'm reporting my wifes pre tax income (which can be anything from $1000 - $1300 a week), there was one stage I went through an entire month without a cent from them. When you are putting in $600pw rent from that, plus other expenditures (like food, phone bills, internet, power bills, etc), it can get rather tight.

Many people just think that people on Jobseeker get the full $750 a fortnight (or whatever it is), and that's far from the truth.

But back to my point, in that if people are already financially struggling and have financial stress, then if Centrelink are saying they have an imaginary debt (and enforcing it), that could definitely break some people.

The question needs to be asked though, how did the debt (and subsequent chasing), end up on the system to begin with. Like was it information miskeyed, or a systems glitch that applied debt to a select number of customers, etc. That's what I meant by that debt doesn't just come from nowhere.
I'll try to put it simply.


Under the previous system, your Centrelink payments were based on what you reported for this fortnight. Your income changes fortnight to fortnight. The old system adjusted your payment based on your reporting.

Under the system that generated robodebt. If you worked and earned a good one off pay cheque (for examples sake 300% of your normal wage) the system then base your pay on what you reported, but apply a debt based on your best pay of the year. Once that debt was incurred wrongfully, they'd cut you off.

Now if you've ever had to deal with errors in the system you'll know that getting things sorted out can take months.
 

Natboy

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Some of the people I speak with would like to see a big rethink as to how algorithms are deployed, with efforts to understand the subject at some pretty deep levels. The RC has some interest for them, although it would certainly help if some of the people involved were more forthcoming. There are certainly plenty of other levels of interest as well, public administration researchers, policy studies experts, etc. The sewer level of politics is unfortunately inevitable. As a fairly apolitical person, I'm resigned to it. All political groups of every flavour indulge in it, so it is sometimes amusing to see them all pointing at each other and getting red in the face. It isn't amusing for long though, as the politics tends to get in the way of the facts. Less rhetoric, more plain talking please.
Yep I understand. I still think there are better ways to spend 30 million
 

Bob dog

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Nice to know they want us to be remote control robots to be dictated by their robots.
 

Alan79

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Struth, that's quite the cockup.

Definitely answers need to be given for how it went so pear shaped.
The fact is that it was pretty clear before the system was implemented that it was going to fuck over innocent people the answers that need to be given are why nobody stopped it before it went pear shaped, who put on the pressure it would have required to get it implemented. It wasn't accidental.
 

Flanagun

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50/50 on this.

Some people knew that they were getting paid overs or exploiting the system and turned a blind eye to it (expecting that Centrelink would never chase it), and now they are.

I mean you either have debt, or you don't. There's no middle ground.

If you have debt, you have to pay it back eventually. If you don't have debt, it's easy enough to prove as such.
It's not that easy though.

I got robodebted. Had to take a prolonged period of unpaid leave from work many years ago because of a serious illness. My (now former) company had actually changed ownership around the period I had to take my leave and the bozos in accounting somehow lost all my payslips and paperwork from the period. I had to go to the bank and ask for bank statements which dated back more than six years, and had to pay for them. You then have to attend an appointment, submit all your paperwork and wait while they carry out a long mediation process to determine if your debt is legit, or not.

Of course, in the end the truth won out and my bogus debt was erased....but it's a long, drawn out and stressful process.

Can you see how rough that would be for someone who is unemployed, on a pension, living with disability, mental health issues or is vulnerable in some other way? For some people receiving a debt notice for a substantial sum is overwhelming...some just took the government at their word and assumed they had made a mistake when they had made none, and the government acted, having been advised and knowing full well what it was doing was illegal.

You might say, why didn't the affected people just fight it? But you don't know what type of personal hardships people are going through. The bogus debts and prospect of fighting them was completely overwhelming for a lot of people. many paid back money they did not owe.... others took their own lives. We are not talking about a small or insignificant number of people who received incorrect debt notices here. A lot of people were impacted by this.
 
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wendog33

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It's not that easy though.

I got robodebted. Had to take a prolonged period of unpaid leave from work many years ago because of a serious illness. My company had actually changed ownership around the period I had to take my leave and the bozos in accounting somehow lost all my payslips and paperwork from the period. I had to go to the bank and ask for bank statements which dated back more than six years, and had to pay for them. You then have to attend an appointment, submit all your paperwork and wait while they carry out a long mediation process to determine if your debt is legit, or not.

Of course, in the end the truth won out and my bogus debt was erased....but it's a long, drawn out and stressful process.

Can you see how rough that would be for someone who is unemployed, on a pension, living with disability, mental health issues or is vulnerable in some other way? For some people receiving a debt notice for a substantial sum is overwhelming...some just took the government at their word and assumed they had made a mistake when they had made none, and the government acted, having been advised and knowing full well what it was doing was illegal.

You might say, why didn't the affected people just fight it? But you don't know what type of personal hardships people are going through. The bogus debts and prospect of fighting them was completely overwhelming for a lot of people. many paid back money they did not owe.... others took their own lives. We are not talking about a small or insignificant people who received incorrect debt notices here. A lot of people were impacted by this.
Apparently 400,000 Australians.
 

senshidog

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Can you see how rough that would be for someone who is unemployed, on a pension, living with disability, mental health issues or is vulnerable in some other way? For some people receiving a debt notice for a substantial sum is overwhelming...some just took the government at their word and assumed they had made a mistake when they had made none, and the government acted, having been advised and knowing full well what it was doing was illegal.
Absolutely.

As someone who has suffered mental health issues personally, I can see how damaging that would have been.

Out of all the potential stressors out there, financial stress is probably the hardest to resolve, because the only way to clear it, is by obtaining money.

Hence why I can certainly understand people possibly taknig their lives over it, because they felt they had no other choice.

Making matters worse is that this sort of thing was impacting the most vulnerable and financially under stress members of society.

Sorry to hear what you went through, sounds like a horrible experience.

I'm thankful that (at least to date), everything with Centrelink for me has been pretty good, and they have actually been really good throughout my treatment and return to work.
 
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