Religious Discussion Thread

[Northern Beaches dog]

So God is responsible for the value?

So thou shall not kill. Isn't that dealing in absolutes?

If you kill protecting you child, its objectively evil, wrong? Flooding the entire world except a boat of people is objectively wrong?

If God commands flow from his nature and he is omnibenevolent (which is a subjective reference point) . Wouldn't it objectively be moral to be of good and loving character, regardless of situation?

And it still doesn't answer. Why is God responsible for the value?

His nature is the STANDARD of good.
I strongly suspect the command also uses common sense as the bible confirms.
If you were to write a law in every single scenario in life the book would be over 1 mill pages.
That is why we all have a conscience and know right from wrong.
In terms of the flood, God as the author of life has the right to cast judgement on his own creation,
Also, such people are not really dead, they have simply moved locations like all of us eventually will under Christianity.

Not quite sure what you mean by regardless of the situtaion

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

I get where you're coming from but it's not proof of God. Like everything surrounding God, it's untestable.

It's the circular reasoning fallacy. If OMV exists then God exists. If God exists then OMV exists. But it's a paradox. You can't prove that God or OMV exists as both are reliant on each other.

I agree it is untestable, but when you say make a claim like rape is wrong you are essentially claiming OMV exists, otherwise what are you saying?
You may not like rape but if there is no OMV, then it cannot be wrong, just disliked, frowned upon etc

 

[Hacky McAxe]

The question is, were those cultures WRONG to do such a thing?
If you say yes, then you are affirming OMV.
Remember, i am not asking you what you like and dislike.
I am asking if it is right or wrong.

But the cultures did not consider it to be wrong. So that's an entire culture that finds it morally acceptable until they were taught that it's not acceptable.

 

[Dogna88]

His nature is the STANDARD of good.
I strongly suspect the command also uses common sense as the bible confirms.
If you were to write a law in every single scenario in life the book would be over 1 mill pages.
That is why we all have a conscience and know right from wrong.
In terms of the flood, God as the author of life has the right to cast judgement on his own creation,
Also, such people are not really dead, they have simply moved locations like all of us eventually will under Christianity.

Not quite sure what you mean by regardless of the situtaion

I am still struggling to understand how OMV prove God. If you need God to prove OMV?

And the references to the Bible suggests you implying a Christian God specifically. So then the question then leads to why is the Christian God responsible for OMV? Especially when belief in his existence and his morals are a subjective one. Ie, he shouldn't have slaughtered the world in a flood before the countless options available to him prior.

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

But the cultures did not consider it to be wrong. So that's an entire culture that finds it morally acceptable until they were taught that it's not acceptable.

Some cultures or societies think that the earth is flat.
Are they wrong to think that or is it because there are some cultures and societies that think the earth is flat then there is no objective shape of the earth?

 

[Hacky McAxe]

I agree it is untestable, but when you say make a claim like rape is wrong you are essentially claiming OMV exists, otherwise what are you saying?
You may not like rape but if there is no OMV, then it cannot be wrong, just disliked, frowned upon etc

Rape is definitely considered wrong in modern society. But many animals procreate through rape and humans used to do it too. But it is considered wrong in society and not just because of teaching. It's considered wrong because it's counterproductive to our survival as a species. If a woman can't trust her partner then she's less likely to take care of their offspring.

So is it objectively immoral? Sure. Does that mean that all things are objectively immoral? Nope.

We have evolved to see that not raping and killing our tribe is better for the survival of our tribe. But the same doesn't ring true for other tribes. Quite the opposite. We are much more inclined to want to kill other tribes because it's also vital for our survival in the event of limited resources (for example, what it was like before we developed agriculutre). This is why we have police and military. Of course the debate could always be "Satan did that", but that's another unprovable leap of reasoning as it cannot be tested or confirmed in any way.

If you like you can jump from "one thing is wrong therefore everything is objectively moral, therefore God exists", but it is a leap of reasoning and not actual evidence God exists as it requires belief in God before it exists.

 

[Dogna88]

But the cultures did not consider it to be wrong. So that's an entire culture that finds it morally acceptable until they were taught that it's not acceptable.

"We survive better in groups and even more so in the time of our ancestors when we were exposed to nature and predators. Hunting and gathering was also a team event. In order for the group to survive certain codes had to be followed . Don’t kill a member, don’t steal from a member, don’t rape your group members, don’t fornicate with another group member’s spouse. These simple rules formed naturally for the good of the group. There need not be a deity handing these things down from heaven."

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Some cultures or societies think that the earth is flat.
Are they wrong to think that or is it because there are some cultures and societies that think the earth is flat then there is no objective shape of the earth?

Of course they are objectively wrong because we can prove that they are objectively wrong. We can't prove that not sacrificing children is objectively immoral.

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

I am still struggling to understand how OMV prove God. If you need God to prove OMV?

And the references to the Bible suggests you implying a Christian God specifically. So then the question then leads to why is the Christian God responsible for OMV? Especially when belief in his existence and his morals are a subjective one. Ie, he shouldn't have slaughtered the world in a flood before the countless options available to him prior.

Because morality is prescriptive.
It is do's and don'ts, ought's and ought not.
Ie, you ought not kill.
This is a communication from a mind/intelligence.
How does OM exist even begin to exist without God?

Lets assume you and a handful people went to Mars and you are the first people to ever step on the planet.
Lets say as soon as you arrive you you see engraved on the rock a collection of commands, isn't it rational to assume they are from an intelligence/mind specifically to people?

 

[Doogie]

But if I subjectively ensure my objectives by objectively ruling my subjects - am I god (already a Lizard Lord but a promo would be cool).

U guys have some good smoke. Any chance u can hit me up?

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

"We survive better in groups and even more so in the time of our ancestors when we were exposed to nature and predators. Hunting and gathering was also a team event. In order for the group to survive certain codes had to be followed . Don’t kill a member, don’t steal from a member, don’t rape your group members, don’t fornicate with another group member’s spouse. These simple rules formed naturally for the good of the group. There need not be a deity handing these things down from heaven."

But that does not make them objective.
That is just a collection of man made rules.
Look at Sharia law in UAE countries.
If homosexuals get caught they get taken to roof tops and get thrown off buildings blind folded.
Are they doing something wrong or something you do not like?
If you say wrong then you are admitting OM.

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

Of course they are objectively wrong because we can prove that they are objectively wrong. We can't prove that not sacrificing children is objectively immoral.

Ok, so is it wrong when ISIS get homosexuals, blind fold them and throw then off buildings?
If we were going to continue with your line of reasoning that we need to be able to prove it, then you cannot say what ISIS do is wrong simply because we cannot prove it is wrong.

 

[Dogna88]

Because morality is prescriptive.
It is do's and don'ts, ought's and ought not.
Ie, you ought not kill.
This is a communication from a mind/intelligence.
How does OM exist even begin to exist without God?

Lets assume you and a handful people went to Mars and you are the first people to ever step on the planet.
Lets say as soon as you arrive you you see engraved on the rock a collection of commands, isn't it rational to assume they are from an intelligence/mind specifically to people?

I would argue that the moral code has evolved over time.

The way you are arguing OMV still does not prove the existence of a God

Re Mars scenario

Do i have to assume that intelligent mind is a supernatural one? Which would be faith based.

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

I would argue that the moral code has evolved over time.

Re Mars scenario

Do i have to assume that intelligent mind is a supernatural one? Which would be faith based.

If it is just part of the socio evolutionary process, rape one day could be deemed right in the future

You also could not say what the Nazis did was wrong because if there is no OM then there is no objective marker to use it against.

If you no intelligent being ever visited Mars how did it get there?

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

All i am saying is, if there is OM, then the ONLY foundation for it is a God.
You cannot have OM without God.

 

[Dogna88]

But that does not make them objective.
That is just a collection of man made rules.
Look at Sharia law in UAE countries.
If homosexuals get caught they get taken to roof tops and get thrown off buildings blind folded.
Are they doing something wrong or something you do not like?
If you say wrong then you are admitting OM.

Yes but then i go back to ny discussion re the reference point of OM.

If i admit OM. It does not prove the existence of a God.

 

[Dogna88]

If it is just part of the socio evolutionary process, rape one day could be deemed right in the future

You also could not say what the Nazis did was wrong because if there is no OM then there is no objective marker to use it against.

If you no intelligent being ever visited Mars how did it get there?

If i visited mars. Would be very ignorant to think no other intelligent being could have.

Just because i may not know all the alternatives. I cant then say "therefore God", or even specifically a Christian one

 

[Dogna88]

All i am saying is, if there is OM, then the ONLY foundation for it is a God.
You cannot have OM without God.

That is... "I dont know, therefore God"

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Ok, so is it wrong when ISIS get homosexuals, blind fold them and throw then off buildings?
If we were going to continue with your line of reasoning that we need to be able to prove it, then you cannot say what ISIS do is wrong simply because we cannot prove it is wrong.

The issue lies in our experience. We have grown up in a society that teaches us that it's morally wrong to kill children, even if they are considered our enemy. If we were raised in a society that teaches that executing gay children is right, then maybe we would also consider it right.

This is why evolutionary psychology is important. Without actually looking into why people do things, then we're just guessing.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

All i am saying is, if there is OM, then the ONLY foundation for it is a God.
You cannot have OM without God.

That's reductive though. I once heard someone say it perfectly. The only one who could possibly know God exists is God. Because the rest of us don't have the entire knowledge of our universe.

If OM exists then must it be God? No. It could be, but the only way that you can say that it's certainly God is if you know every single thing that exists in our Universe.