George Pell

Dawgfather

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Regardless of the intricacies of who did what and what they should and shouldn't have done, its process was straight forward.

1. A complaint was made
2. Police investigate , and decide to lay charges
3. The DPP ( regardless of what they did or didn't recommend ) proceeded in prosecuting the matter. They could have dropped the matter, they didn't.
4. Every Court up to the court of appeal did NOT acquit or throw the matter out.
5. The High Court unanimously acquits him .

Like I said, our legal system needs to be reformed.
I would also put money on the fact that you have not read the summary and full judgement released by the high court yesterday. You just felt lots of emotions and decided to say our legal system needs to be reformed.
 

Kaz

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Reading some of the replies, I am a genius compared to some here. But I already knew that.

We have some oxygen thieves amongst us. (no I am not one of them)
 

LFC Bulldogs

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I would also put money on the fact that you have not read the summary and full judgement released by the high court yesterday. You just felt lots of emotions and decided to say our legal system needs to be reformed.
What difference would reading the judgement make? It wouldn't explain the inconsistency in our legal system.....from lower courts to the highest court. Different verdict.
 

Dawgfather

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What difference would reading the judgement make? .
Generally, before you can critique something or even form an opinion of something you have to actually understand it.

If you don't know the basis for the high court judgement then you can't critique it.
 

Kaz

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I would also put money on the fact that you have not read the summary and full judgement released by the high court yesterday. You just felt lots of emotions and decided to say our legal system needs to be reformed.
Just so people can read it.

HIGH COURT OF AUSTRALIA
Please direct enquiries to Ben Wickham, Senior Executive Deputy Registrar Telephone: (02) 6270 6893 Fax: (02) 6270 6868 Email: enquiries@hcourt.gov.au Website: www.hcourt.gov.au


PELL v THE QUEEN [2020] HCA 12

Today, the High Court granted special leave to appeal against a decision of the Court of Appeal of the Supreme Court of Victoria and unanimously allowed the appeal. The High Court found that the jury, acting rationally on the whole of the evidence, ought to have entertained a doubt as to the applicant's guilt with respect to each of the offences for which he was convicted, and ordered that the convictions be quashed and that verdicts of acquittal be entered in their place.

On 11 December 2018, following a trial by jury in the County Court of Victoria, the applicant, who was Archbishop of Melbourne at the time of the alleged offending, was convicted of one charge of sexual penetration of a child under 16 years and four charges of committing an act of indecency with or in the presence of a child under the age of 16 years. This was the second trial of these charges, the jury at the first trial having been unable to agree on its verdicts. The prosecution case, as it was left to the jury, alleged that the offending occurred on two separate occasions, the first on 15 or 22 December 1996 and the second on 23 February 1997. The incidents were alleged to have occurred in and near the priests' sacristy at St Patrick's Cathedral in East Melbourne, following the celebration of Sunday solemn Mass. The victims of the alleged offending were two Cathedral choirboys aged 13 years at the time of the events.

The applicant sought leave to appeal against his convictions before the Court of Appeal. On 21 August 2019 the Court of Appeal granted leave on a single ground, which contended that the verdicts were unreasonable or could not be supported by the evidence, and dismissed the appeal. The Court of Appeal viewed video-recordings of a number of witnesses' testimony, including that of the complainant. The majority, Ferguson CJ and Maxwell P, assessed the complainant to be a compelling witness. Their Honours went on to consider the evidence of a number of "opportunity witnesses", who had described the movements of the applicant and others following the conclusion of Sunday solemn Mass in a way that was inconsistent with the complainant's account. Their Honours found that no witness could say with certainty that these routines and practices were never departed from and concluded that the jury had not been compelled to entertain a reasonable doubt as to the applicant's guilt. Weinberg JA dissented, concluding that, by reason of the unchallenged evidence of the opportunity witnesses, the jury, acting rationally on the whole of the evidence, ought to have had a reasonable doubt.

On 17 September 2019, the applicant applied to the High Court for special leave to appeal from the Court of Appeal's decision on two grounds. On 13 November 2019, Gordon and Edelman JJ referred the application for special leave to a Full Court of the High Court for argument as on an appeal. The application was heard by the High Court on 11 and 12 March 2020.

The High Court considered that, while the Court of Appeal majority assessed the evidence of the opportunity witnesses as leaving open the possibility that the complainant's account was correct, their Honours' analysis failed to engage with the question of whether there remained a reasonable possibility that the offending had not taken place, such that there ought to have been a reasonable doubt as to the applicant's guilt. The unchallenged evidence of the opportunity witnesses was

7 April 2020
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inconsistent with the complainant's account, and described: (i) the applicant's practice of greeting congregants on or near the Cathedral steps after Sunday solemn Mass; (ii) the established and historical Catholic church practice that required that the applicant, as an archbishop, always be accompanied when robed in the Cathedral; and (iii) the continuous traffic in and out of the priests' sacristy for ten to 15 minutes after the conclusion of the procession that ended Sunday solemn Mass.

The Court held that, on the assumption that the jury had assessed the complainant's evidence as thoroughly credible and reliable, the evidence of the opportunity witnesses nonetheless required the jury, acting rationally, to have entertained a reasonable doubt as to the applicant's guilt in relation to the offences involved in both alleged incidents. With respect to each of the applicant's convictions, there was, consistently with the words the Court used in Chidiac v The Queen (1991) 171 CLR 432 at 444 and M v The Queen (1994) 181 CLR 487 at 494, "a significant possibility that an innocent person has been convicted because the evidence did not establish guilt to the requisite standard of proof".

• This statement is not intended to be a substitute for the reasons of the High Court or to be used in any later consideration of the Court’s reasons.

https://www.hcourt.gov.au/assets/publications/judgment-summaries/2020/hca-12-2020-04-07.pdf
 

Kaz

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What difference would reading the judgement make? It wouldn't explain the inconsistency in our legal system.....from lower courts to the highest court. Different verdict.
So you can understand the decision.

The lower court fucked up big time.
 

LFC Bulldogs

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Are you saying our legal system needs to be reformed because you didn't like the verdict?

Which part of the high courts judgement do you disagree with? Quote the specific evidence or point of law.

I bet you don't have a solid reason for your opinion, you are just likely butt hurt that your assumptions about Pell that you've gladly lapped up from the media without doing your own independent research were wrong.
You would lose every bet mate. You've jumped up an down like a poster girl for Pell and the catholic church yet nowhere have I judged him.
Read my post again before jumping the gun . I say I'm not even going to debate whether Pell is innocent or guilty. My issue is the verdict inconsistency from the lower courts to the higher court. Lower courts issue a guilty verdict, higher courts acquit him.
Im far from "butthurt" as you say, I don't know and more importantly couldn't give 2 fucks whether Pell is guilty or not.

What I do know is our legal system needs to be reformed, for many reason .
 

LFC Bulldogs

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Generally, before you can critique something or even form an opinion of something you have to actually understand it.

If you don't know the basis for the high court judgement then you can't critique it.
When and where did I critique the high court decision. You're hallucinating I think.
 

Dawgfather

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When and where did I critique the high court decision. You're hallucinating I think.
Substitute high court with Victorian court of appeals or the original court.

My point is, if you have no idea the basis on which different courts made the decisions they did, then you can not even begin to understand whether the system worked as designed.
 

Dawgfather

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You would lose every bet mate. You've jumped up an down like a poster girl for Pell and the catholic church yet nowhere have I judged him.
Read my post again before jumping the gun . I say I'm not even going to debate whether Pell is innocent or guilty. My issue is the verdict inconsistency from the lower courts to the higher court. Lower courts issue a guilty verdict, higher courts acquit him.
Im far from "butthurt" as you say, I don't know and more importantly couldn't give 2 fucks whether Pell is guilty or not.

What I do know is our legal system needs to be reformed, for many reason .
I am not saying what I'm saying as a fan of anybody or any institution.

I am simply a fan of applying the law equally and fairly, and when you do that in this case, Pell should have been found not guilty in the lower court (it should not have taken the high court to instruct the victorian judges about how to apply a burden of proof).

It's ridiculous I even need to qualify my statement but for the record:

- Kiddy fiddlers are disgusting and need to be locked away for life
- The catcholic church has an awful record in the past in relation to priests who committed criminal acts against kids. Everyone knows this.

However, the second bullet point does not mean that every catholic priest is a paedo.
 

LFC Bulldogs

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Substitute high court with Victorian court of appeals or the original court.

My point is, if you have no idea the basis on which different courts made the decisions they did, then you can not even begin to understand whether the system worked as designed.
So basically trying to say is that that each court has a different "rules" ( onus of proof , jury trial/ judge trial) and hence why different judgements are handed down. That's how I interpreted your reply.
That alone is enough to warrant my belief that the things need to be changed in our legal system.
 

Dawgfather

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So basically trying to say is that that each court has a different "rules" ( onus of proof , jury trial/ judge trial) and hence why different judgements are handed down. That's how I interpreted your reply.
That alone is enough to warrant my belief that the things need to be changed in our legal system.
No I'm not saying that, and the fact you've even asked the question shows you don't have much information about even the most basic parts of the legal system.

I honestly recommend you go and read the judgement by the high court and then see how you feel about it afterwards.
 

Rodzilla

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If you had to ask weather the Pell cases was fake media story, it can only prove that you carry a bias, (or more correctly a permanent hate) which proves beyond any doubt that you are not willing to search for and believe the truth, and for this I can only feel sorry for you.
Bias people have been responsible for all of the worlds problems, so if you hate all Catholics do you think that Mother Theresa should have been treated as a criminal.
BTW I once did meet Mother Theresa, and I have known a few bad Catholic Brothers and one or two Priests, I believe that we will all be judged by the Almighty in the end and that includes the HATE people.
no I meant was your bike story reported or is it fake
 

Hacky McAxe

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no I meant was your bike story reported or is it fake
Sounds fake to me. I could be wrong and apologise if I am but without evidence, that does sound a little fake. I mean, if the kid's witness testimony was the case evidence, and that collapsed on cross examination, then the case would be thrown out if there wasn't anything else.
 

LFC Bulldogs

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No I'm not saying that, and the fact you've even asked the question shows you don't have much information about even the most basic parts of the legal system.

I honestly recommend you go and read the judgement by the high court and then see how you feel about it afterwards.
Well what are you saying ? I think you are having a difficult time comprehending what I'm saying.
I get it you're a self appointed legal expert of the kennel .
Reading the judgement will make no difference that different judgements were handed down in different courts. That itself is a concern which I've pointed out , but you fail to acknowledge this .
Instead you rabble on about reading the judgement which is irrelevant to my argument .
I do have a small understanding the court structure in our country, but enough to know that its flawed and I will reiterate once again that it is a concern that any defendant would have to appeal to the Federal High court to clear his/her name of such serious allegations...and vice versa .

Lets just leave it there, because we are going to keep going around in circles .
 
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Dawgfather

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\
Instead you rabble on about reading the judgement which is irrelevant to my argument .
I do have small an understanding the court structure in our country, but enough to know that its flawed \

Lets just leave it there, because we are going to keep going around in circles .
Which part of the high courts judgement do you disagree with? If not the high court then which part of the victorian appeals court judgement do you disagree with?
 

Rodzilla

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I am not saying what I'm saying as a fan of anybody or any institution.

I am simply a fan of applying the law equally and fairly, and when you do that in this case, Pell should have been found not guilty in the lower court (it should not have taken the high court to instruct the victorian judges about how to apply a burden of proof).

It's ridiculous I even need to qualify my statement but for the record:

- Kiddy fiddlers are disgusting and need to be locked away for life
- The catcholic church has an awful record in the past in relation to priests who committed criminal acts against kids. Everyone knows this.

However, the second bullet point does not mean that every catholic priest is a paedo.
how do you know every catholic priest is not a pedo?

btw the person you are defending has an awful record in the past in relation to priest who committed criminal acts against kids, he is the don king if the pedophile cover up was compared to greedy boxing promoters

they found the victim credible all the way up, including that the victim wasn't able to recall specific things and didn't embellish, for example he said pell didn't tell them to keep quiet

and the fact that he said it happened in the priests room is evident because at the time the archbishops room was closed for repairs and he would have used the priests room instead

the jury was given the robes to feel and they thought it was very maneuverable so I don't understand why the robes are brought up as something that is inconsistent, did the high court also feel the robes or are they just repeating the defence teams arguments?

Sounds fake to me. I could be wrong and apologise if I am but without evidence, that does sound a little fake. I mean, if the kid's witness testimony was the case evidence, and that collapsed on cross examination, then the case would be thrown out if there wasn't anything else.
or also it could be a situation that the parent offered the kid the bike to encourage him because he was about to talk about his abuse in public and that kelpie spun it around

I would like links to this event, you can better believe this thing was reported on because its very interesting
 

wendog33

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There's more victims lining up to seek their justice...not the end of Pell's reckoning by a long way.
lol he doesn't want anything to do with proving that he was innocent, just like he didn't want to take the stand

it would open up a can of pedophile worms
 

Kelpie03

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no I meant was your bike story reported or is it fake
My wife did chair a jury that acquitted a priest, I would swear it on the bible any day of the week. decent people don't lie about such matters to their spouses.
So your saying that trying to make some easy money by claiming compensation does not happen, I have employed a lot of people and about 75% of the compo claims were false, the other 25% just exaggerated their injuries.
 
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