Train Discussion Megathread - Etiquette / Strikes / Gripes

[CroydonDog]

It's a sad day for an alleged free and democratic society when a court can ban your right to protest.

 

[Ecca]

So... re the "Text message" issue.
We were given minimal time to respond, and the sentiment around train crew is in line with the 6% in favour of suspending the action.


Re unskilled. I hardly think that is true. We are uniquely skilled, our skills are not transferable to other vocations, and yet essential to our job functions and ensures public safety is front of mind.

What other actions do you have when you are being paid more than 20% than similarly skilled counterparts in other states?

 

[Bad Billy]

So... re the "Text message" issue.
We were given minimal time to respond, and the sentiment around train crew is in line with the 6% in favour of suspending the action.


Re unskilled. I hardly think that is true. We are uniquely skilled, our skills are not transferable to other vocations, and yet essential to our job functions and ensures public safety is front of mind.

What other actions do you have when you are being paid more than 20% than similarly skilled counterparts in other states?

Unskilled isn’t an insult. It is the correct term to use for a job that requires no formal education or qualifications.
My wife is a postie. Great job. Good conditions. Unique skills acquired on the job. But still unskilled.

I earn about half what I used to earn when I worked in private enterprise. But I took the job for other reasons. I knew the salary and conditions going in and am not about to complain and ask for more now that They’ve invested time and money into training me.

 

[Ecca]

Unskilled isn’t an insult. It is the correct term to use for a job that requires no formal education or qualifications.
My wife is a postie. Great job. Good conditions. Unique skills acquired on the job. But still unskilled.

I earn about half what I used to earn when I worked in private enterprise. But I took the job for other reasons. I knew the salary and conditions going in and am not about to complain and ask for more now that They’ve invested time and money into training me.

Fair enough too.

as a GROUP bargaining process, you are with a group of people who have just finished training all the way through to close to retirement, everyone is treated the same as part of the EBA, as such it isn't about their initial investment in you, but their ongoing one

 

[Bad Billy]

Fair enough too.

as a GROUP bargaining process, you are with a group of people who have just finished training all the way through to close to retirement, everyone is treated the same as part of the EBA, as such it isn't about their initial investment in you, but their ongoing one

Agreed.
I’ve never been a fan of the EBA as a concept (the same framework applied in my workplace). There’s no incentive to be good employee. You’re paid as though you’re equal to the shittest employee.
It’s basically, “we agree you’re worth $150000, but if we give you that, we’d have to give that shitcunt the same.”

 

[Alan79]

It's a sad day for an alleged free and democratic society when a court can ban your right to protest.

Part of the liberal agenda as revealed after the last election was to destroy unions which in turn will remove the funding from their biggest opposition.

Step 1 of that plan was to destroy the car manufacturing industry.
Step 2 was to run a big smear campaign through the media.
the stacking of the FWC seems to have taken longer. But if we look at things like the removal of weekend rates for hospitality workers and this action against rights that people have had for many years, you can see that they've done a fairly good job of undermining workers rights.

Things like this should be pointing out to anyone that has half a brain unlucky enough to be on low/medium incomes (basically the majority of Australians) that we need to start protesting about these things. But for some reason people seem to get the shits when they hear about others protesting for their rights. It's something like stockholm syndrome in my opinion.

 

[CaptainJackson]

Part of the liberal agenda as revealed after the last election was to destroy unions which in turn will remove the funding from their biggest opposition.

Step 1 of that plan was to destroy the car manufacturing industry.
Step 2 was to run a big smear campaign through the media.
the stacking of the FWC seems to have taken longer. But if we look at things like the removal of weekend rates for hospitality workers and this action against rights that people have had for many years, you can see that they've done a fairly good job of undermining workers rights.

Things like this should be pointing out to anyone that has half a brain unlucky enough to be on low/medium incomes (basically the majority of Australians) that we need to start protesting about these things. But for some reason people seem to get the shits when they hear about others protesting for their rights. It's something like stockholm syndrome in my opinion.

Don't forget the royal commission that turned up with practically nothing.

 

[Alan79]

Don't forget the royal commission that turned up with practically nothing.

I'm sure they knew it wouldn't. It did come with some big media coverage that would have turned a lot of people with no real opinion about unions into armchair critics who would swear that unions are all corrupt based on the initial suspicion generated.

 

[Alan79]

Agreed.
I’ve never been a fan of the EBA as a concept (the same framework applied in my workplace). There’s no incentive to be good employee. You’re paid as though you’re equal to the shittest employee.
It’s basically, “we agree you’re worth $150000, but if we give you that, we’d have to give that shitcunt the same.”

An EBA does not prevent companies from offering extra bonuses to exemplary workers or deny them the right to negotiate a better deal where the employee is willing to negotiate. It just improves the minimum for every worker and usually it isn't improved by a huge amount. In most cases these days the improvements are more likely to be similar to the cost of living rises.

I'd say that we are pretty lucky that a referendum under Howards leadership failed. You may remember the advertising campaign where they spoke in glowing terms about how if it was voted in by australians they would be able to negotiate their own wages with employers including setting their own hours and wages etc etc.

It was overwhelmingly rejected thankfully. And probably in part because in NZ the Union leadership really undermined the power of their workers. It was possible to give Australian workers a recent example of how this legislation could really lead us into a poorer set of circumstances than we were currently in.

I have spoken about this with a friend who lived in NZ when they adopted a system like this called "The Employment Contracts Bill". A couple of friends of his that worked in a supermarket showed up to work the day after this bill was set in place. Before they were allowed in to do the job, they were sat down at a table with three cops present, someone from the NZ social services department and a manager. They were fired, then presented with new contracts with reduced wages and worse conditions seco9nds after they were fired. If they objected and threatened violence the police were there to keep them under control. If they refused the new job offer the social services officer was there as a witness so they weren't able to apply for welfare since they had refused a job offer.

I Just read an interesting article about the situation that allowed this to happen in NZ. It probably highlights where Union power has lost some ground these days. There are unions in Australia that will emphasize a very co-operative approach to negotiation tyhat have a reputation of crapping on their workers to some extent, while others still seem to get good results for their workers. Have a read of this article which talks about how this bill impacted NZ and the set of circumstances that surrounded it's passage into law.
https://iso.org.nz/2016/02/23/defea...e-against-the-employment-contracts-bill-1991/

 

[Bad Billy]

An EBA does not prevent companies from offering extra bonuses to exemplary workers or deny them the right to negotiate a better deal where the employee is willing to negotiate. It just improves the minimum for every worker and usually it isn't improved by a huge amount. In most cases these days the improvements are more likely to be similar to the cost of living rises

That’s true and I’ve got the bonus, the last 3 years in my group, But that’s a drop in a bucket to what I could earn ‘outside’ if I was commanding my own price.
Even though, independent salaries are allowed in the EB, most organizations won’t (mine certainly won’t). As it can be seen as unfair to the shit workers.

 

[Bob dog]

The whole thing makes a mockery of the Liberals Rail Corp restructure, who spends seventeen million on a re brand then produces this?

 

[CaptainJackson]

I'm sure they knew it wouldn't. It did come with some big media coverage that would have turned a lot of people with no real opinion about unions into armchair critics who would swear that unions are all corrupt based on the initial suspicion generated.

They knew there wasn't much to it but were also hoping something came out which would stick to Bill Shorten.

It astounds me that there are workers out there who are against unions, they're working against their own interests FFS.

 

[Alan79]

They knew there wasn't much to it but were also hoping something came out which would stick to Bill Shorten.

It astounds me that there are workers out there who are against unions, they're working against their own interests FFS.

It's hard to comprehend. But I've witnessed firsthand some of the arguments and the rubbish that businesses spread to convince their workers that unions are bad. I personally saw a manager come and tell people that the branch of a business I worked for was close to folding during an EBA negotiation, while in the paper about a week later they released their profit statement which proudly trumpeted a 60% rise in profits from that same branch by one of their higher level executives in the business pages of the Australian. I don't know how fair it is to say that people are far more gullible these days than they have proven to be in the past, but it appears to be a trend now to bury your head in the sand to better be able to ignore the fact that businesses will bend you over and have their way with you.

 

[Alan79]

That’s true and I’ve got the bonus, the last 3 years in my group, But that’s a drop in a bucket to what I could earn ‘outside’ if I was commanding my own price.
Even though, independent salaries are allowed in the EB, most organizations won’t (mine certainly won’t). As it can be seen as unfair to the shit workers.

If you negotiate a better pay rate with your employer you aren't required to publicize that to every employee in the place. So thats a bit of a lie from your employer who it would seem just doesn't want to pay you any more. Thats part of a divide and conquer strategy to me and a fairly common tactic among the bag of tricks that businesses use frequently.

 

[Bad Billy]

If you negotiate a better pay rate with your employer you aren't required to publicize that to every employee in the place. So thats a bit of a lie from your employer who it would seem just doesn't want to pay you any more. Thats part of a divide and conquer strategy to me and a fairly common tactic among the bag of tricks that businesses use frequently.

I've never worked anywhere that has been able to keep employees salaries secret.
Especially in a big place.

 

[CaptainJackson]

It's hard to comprehend. But I've witnessed firsthand some of the arguments and the rubbish that businesses spread to convince their workers that unions are bad. I personally saw a manager come and tell people that the branch of a business I worked for was close to folding during an EBA negotiation, while in the paper about a week later they released their profit statement which proudly trumpeted a 60% rise in profits from that same branch by one of their higher level executives in the business pages of the Australian. I don't know how fair it is to say that people are far more gullible these days than they have proven to be in the past, but it appears to be a trend now to bury your head in the sand to better be able to ignore the fact that businesses will bend you over and have their way with you.

I think ignorance, privilege and an "entitled" attitude comes into it as well.

For example, a lot of mine workers seem to be those against dole payments for the unemployed and union interference (surely a lot of mining companies have their propaganda distributed among their employees). In all fairness, they're over glorified labourers. Not trying to have a cheap shot at them, but the fact their work place is so remote and requires long working hours and long times spent away from families and friends, plays a massive part in these guys earning enormous amounts (compared to your average wage), they're on par with Doctors and other highly skilled professions.

But yet they see it as they chose to live remotely and they did something about it and so others should too. Well life doesn't work that way, they've clearly made a trade off to earn money by not seeing their family, that's their choice and their individual freedom. It in no way, shape or form means that other people should be forced to make the same decision.

And then coming onto the ignorance part, our welfare that we distribute among the neediest of Australians get's pumped DIRECTLY BACK INTO OUR ECONOMY, it keeps our economy going. Those people on a pittance of dole cheques cannot save that money, it's needed for absolute essentials. But yet those in professions like mining have no understanding of the economy and see these dole cheques as a burden on the economy when in fact it isn't, i.e. it pumps money straight back into the economy.

As soon as some (mainly the uneducated who are ignorant in economic principles) start earning large amounts of cash they have a "holier than thou" attitude and become "me, me, me". Then they drift onto rants about how unions make their workplace so much more difficult (again mining industry propaganda), while completely ignoring the safe working conditions that unions fight for, e.g. black lungs, who mining companies couldn't really give two stuffs about unless they were forced to by regulations

 

[CaptainJackson]

I've never worked anywhere that has been able to keep employees salaries secret.
Especially in a big place.

It's against privacy laws to reveal employees wages

 

[Hacky McAxe]

I've never worked anywhere that has been able to keep employees salaries secret.
Especially in a big place.

Yep. Accounts are pretty bad when it comes to that. It's actually illegal for them to reveal people's wages but they often let it slip.

 

[Bob dog]

It's a sad day for an alleged free and democratic society when a court can ban your right to protest.

Its Government bullying gone mad, Fair work is a Government entity with Government interests, strike action is still not out of the question, if they stand as one, the war will be won.

 

[Bad Billy]

It's against privacy laws to reveal employees wages

They don’t “reveal” them, it just leaks out. You’ve got admin staff, payroll staff, trusted colleagues, it just takes one conversation and before long everyone knows.
I’ve never told anyone what level of pay I’m on, but everyone knows. I was told by a mate a couple of weeks ago how many ot shifts I did last year.