Religious Discussion Thread

[The DoggFather]

We are discussing the OT and the Abrahamic God.

So i dont understand your point?

Unless your saying the your Gods word and law are bound by time and social construct?

OT advocates slavery
Jesus comes along says love thy neighbour
Then St Paul (arguably the founder of Christianity) says that slaves should be obedient to their human master with fear and trembling.

Makes you wonder.
1. At what point is it ever morally right for a human to have ownership over another humam.
And
2. At what point and why was slavery right, then made wrong, right again and presumably wrong again now

Don't know if it's relevant to this thread or not but slavery is still present and more prevalent today. Us slaves haven't changed, just our earthly masters have changed.

 

[Dogna88]

Don't know if it's relevant to this thread or not but slavery is still present and more prevalent today. Us slaves haven't changed, just our earthly masters have changed.

Slavery does certainly exisit.

But i guess. Was it ever morally right for one human to have ownership over another humam

 

[The DoggFather]

They are Apostolic successors. The Catholic Church also recognizes Orthodox Priests as apostolic successors.

When Jesus gave the authority to His first Bishops(The Apostles) to forgive sins in the book of John, this authority was not meant to only last for the apostles life span on earth but for the rest of time until He comes again. Jesus' commandments are not temporary(as you know) but they are for good, for Life and He meant it when He said that He is establishing the New and Everlasting Covenant. Jesus' laws don't die when the Apostles die, hence confession stays forever.

I'm glad you know that both the Catholic and Orthodox churches are Apostolic. Most Catholics judge with no knowledge.

I've learnt from my Bishop (Mar Mari Emmanuel) that basically Orthodoxy is the Church of the East and Catholicism is the Church of the West.

But as you know I focus on the reason of the Church and not the "brand" of Church. This is not a bad thing as Jesus instructs us to test the spirits, so if we can question the spirits, we can question Churches and their ways. I focus on the Owner of the Church.

 

[The DoggFather]

Slavery does certainly exisit.

But i guess. Was it ever morally right for one human to have ownership over another humam

I personally believe no human can own a human as the only One that can own me is God.

But to try to explain it Biblically, I believe in dispensationalism where the Bible has to be RIGHTLY divided into the right age and the right people IE Age of Law, Church Age, Great Tribulation and Gods Millennium.

 

[The DoggFather]

They are Apostolic successors. The Catholic Church also recognizes Orthodox Priests as apostolic successors.

When Jesus gave the authority to His first Bishops(The Apostles) to forgive sins in the book of John, this authority was not meant to only last for the apostles life span on earth but for the rest of time until He comes again. Jesus' commandments are not temporary(as you know) but they are for good, for Life and He meant it when He said that He is establishing the New and Everlasting Covenant. Jesus' laws don't die when the Apostles die, hence confession stays forever.

PS use the following passage to strengthen your case

James 5:16 (KJV) Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[Dogna88]

I personally believe no human can own a human as the only One that can own me is God.

But to try to explain it Biblically, I believe in dispensationalism where the Bible has to be RIGHTLY divided into the right age and the right people IE Age of Law, Church Age, Great Tribulation and Gods Millennium.

But even 10,000 years before Jesus. A all knowing, all powerful, all loving, timeless God should never advocate one human owning another humam. Thats up there with thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal and keeping the sabbath holy

 

[Caveman]

But even 10,000 years before Jesus. A all knowing, all powerful, all loving, timeless God should never advocate one human owning another humam. Thats up there with thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal and keeping the sabbath holy

Slavery in the bible is generally very different to the slavery we know of today, slavery was to pay off a debt, masters owned the slaves time and labour until their debt was paid but not their bodies, slaves could bring lawsuits against their masters, if a master even physically harmed a slave in the slightest way a slave could go free immediately, slaves had their debts forgiven every 7 years and were set free.

The bible is very clear on stealing a man and selling him - similar to todays definitionof slavery, this is a sin and warranted death if caught doing such atrocities.

 

[Mr 95%]

I wish I had the words to say to the victims and families to ease their pain.

But for me and bad times I've had and I will have till I finally die and stay dead (lol) my faith comforts me knowing that life on earth is just a millisecond compared to me spiritual life.

One saying I always live by is "God gives the hardest missions to his strongest soldiers". I know it might be just some "words" for people but not for me.

So I can honestly say I haven't got the brain power to explain it but there is no shame in saying "I don't know", rather say that then act like I know everything.

I love your belief in your faith brother..but this one remains a sore point for me..but I’m sure you understand.

 

[The DoggFather]

I love your belief in your faith brother..but this one remains a sore point for me..but I’m sure you understand.

Of course I understand my bro, that's why I wish I can fully comprehend it and put it in words us humans can understand.

 

[Realist90]

[

@Realist90 @dogwhisperer Guys i appreciate the notion of forgiveness in the Christian faith..one of the great things about it, that one is truly remorseful can be forgiven..even on one‘s last breath. However, what about the victims of those crime..and I don’t mean those who may been robbed..i mean heinous crimes like rapes, murderers..the persecutors are forgiven..yet sometimes victims..or families.. never recover and their lives are destroyed because of it.. Yeah I get the reward of an afterlife..I don’t think this negates the here and now..

God is greater than any sin. What would look like completely unforgivable to man, to God is nothing in comparison to his glory and power. However let’s say you have a murderer and he’s gone all his life living that lifestyle example a gang member in Chicago, and when he’s about to die he wants to throw a cheap please forgive me. It’s going to be hard to think he’ll be forgiven for that, however I am not God so I can’t give an explicit answer as no one knows what’s in someone’s heart except for Christ. Now let’s say he was truly remorseful and meant it with all his mind heart and soul, God may forgive him but we don’t just get a free pass. Purgatory is the place of cleansing. It isn’t a second chance like some people think. If you make purgatory you’re destined for heaven, it’s just you’re going to be punished and cleansed of those sins you committed. It’s like for example if your son went against your wishes like kicking the ball near a window after you told him no, he proceeds to do it and breaks the window. He’s truly sorry for it and even cries exclaiming how sorry and remorseful he is. You accept his apology but you still say, son I accept your apology but you’re still gonna have to pay for that window.

 

[Mr 95%]

God is greater than any sin. What would look like completely unforgivable to man, to God is nothing in comparison to his glory and power. However let’s say you have a murderer and he’s gone all his life living that lifestyle example a gang member in Chicago, and when he’s about to die he wants to throw a cheap please forgive me. It’s going to be hard to think he’ll be forgiven for that, however I am not God so I can’t give an explicit answer as no one knows what’s in someone’s heart except for Christ. Now let’s say he was truly remorseful and meant it with all his mind heart and soul, God may forgive him but we don’t just get a free pass. Purgatory is the place of cleansing. It isn’t a second chance like some people think. If you make purgatory you’re destined for heaven, it’s just you’re going to be punished and cleansed of those sins you committed. It’s like for example if your son went against your wishes like kicking the ball near a window after you told him no, he proceeds to do it and breaks the window. He’s truly sorry for it and even cries exclaiming how sorry and remorseful he is. You accept his apology but you still say, son I accept your apology but you’re still gonna have to pay for that window.

Yes I understand this and accept the reasoning..I just feel for the victims..

 

[The DoggFather]

God is greater than any sin. What would look like completely unforgivable to man, to God is nothing in comparison to his glory and power. However let’s say you have a murderer and he’s gone all his life living that lifestyle example a gang member in Chicago, and when he’s about to die he wants to throw a cheap please forgive me. It’s going to be hard to think he’ll be forgiven for that, however I am not God so I can’t give an explicit answer as no one knows what’s in someone’s heart except for Christ. Now let’s say he was truly remorseful and meant it with all his mind heart and soul, God may forgive him but we don’t just get a free pass. Purgatory is the place of cleansing. It isn’t a second chance like some people think. If you make purgatory you’re destined for heaven, it’s just you’re going to be punished and cleansed of those sins you committed. It’s like for example if your son went against your wishes like kicking the ball near a window after you told him no, he proceeds to do it and breaks the window. He’s truly sorry for it and even cries exclaiming how sorry and remorseful he is. You accept his apology but you still say, son I accept your apology but you’re still gonna have to pay for that window.

Not to argue my bro but Lord Jesus never talked about purgatory.

If anything, He rules it out as He was on the cross

“Then he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise,’” Luke 23:42-43.

 

[Caveman]

[

@Realist90 @dogwhisperer Guys i appreciate the notion of forgiveness in the Christian faith..one of the great things about it, that one is truly remorseful can be forgiven..even on one‘s last breath. However, what about the victims of those crime..and I don’t mean those who may been robbed..i mean heinous crimes like rapes, murderers..the persecutors are forgiven..yet sometimes victims..or families.. never recover and their lives are destroyed because of it.. Yeah I get the reward of an afterlife..I don’t think this negates the here and now..

This is a very sensitive topic, especially for those victims that you speak of.

To get at it from a Christian perspective probably requires a lengthy genuine discussion revolving around the Gospel of Christ - and without such a discussion any thought put forward would never seem sufficient.

However I will say this, despite any atrocity, there is still hope, there is still a desire to live and there is generally a recognition that over time things should get better - lest we end out lives prematurely. The goodness in life will still out weigh the bad - the torment of injustice in this life is not greater than gift of life itself.

Because life is so valuable no man can punish another man adequately enough for something as heinous as rape, however according to the Bible the Father can - and the punishment will be eternal and sufficient.

However the biblical gift of salvation extends beyond this life, and is more glorious than this life, we value this life so much, yet the eternal life that is on offer is worth so much more.

 

[The DoggFather]

Yes I understand this and accept the reasoning..I just feel for the victims..

We all do my bro, well decent people do.

 

[The DoggFather]

This is a very sensitive topic, especially for those victims that you speak of.

To get at it from a Christian perspective probably requires a lengthy genuine discussion revolving around the Gospel of Christ - and without such a discussion any thought put forward would never seem sufficient.

However I will say this, despite any atrocity, there is still hope, there is still a desire to live and there is generally a recognition that over time things should get better - lest we end out lives prematurely. The goodness in life will still out weigh the bad - the torment of injustice in this life is not greater than gift of life itself.

Because life is so valuable no man can punish another man adequately enough for something as heinous as rape, however according to the Bible the Father can - and the punishment will be eternal and sufficient.

However the biblical gift of salvation extends beyond this life, and is more glorious than this life, we value this life so much, yet the eternal life that is on offer is worth so much more.

A good example is that poor family that lost their children to that drunk demon.... God rest their innocent souls.

 

[Dogna88]

Slavery in the bible is generally very different to the slavery we know of today, slavery was to pay off a debt, masters owned the slaves time and labour until their debt was paid but not their bodies, slaves could bring lawsuits against their masters, if a master even physically harmed a slave in the slightest way a slave could go free immediately, slaves had their debts forgiven every 7 years and were set free.

The bible is very clear on stealing a man and selling him - similar to todays definitionof slavery, this is a sin and warranted death if caught doing such atrocities.

Master owned slaves. You said everything you needed to with those 3 words.

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.”

And your seven year scenario only refered to a certain type of human. Can you guess?

And please dont try justify ownership of a human by another human. If your child borrowed money from a lender. Would you see it just that your child be owned by that lender? That the lender could belt your child with a rod as long as he recovered after a day or two?

Its not right pre jesus. Its not right at the time of St Paul. Its not right now

 

[Mr 95%]

This is a very sensitive topic, especially for those victims that you speak of.

To get at it from a Christian perspective probably requires a lengthy genuine discussion revolving around the Gospel of Christ - and without such a discussion any thought put forward would never seem sufficient.

However I will say this, despite any atrocity, there is still hope, there is still a desire to live and there is generally a recognition that over time things should get better - lest we end out lives prematurely. The goodness in life will still out weigh the bad - the torment of injustice in this life is not greater than gift of life itself.

Because life is so valuable no man can punish another man adequately enough for something as heinous as rape, however according to the Bible the Father can - and the punishment will be eternal and sufficient.

However the biblical gift of salvation extends beyond this life, and is more glorious than this life, we value this life so much, yet the eternal life that is on offer is worth so much more.

I thank you for your explanation..and it is from a Christian perspective.. I guess unless we are in the shoes of victims or the families..we don’t know if they can ever ‘move on’..

 

[The DoggFather]

I thank you for your explanation..and it is from a Christian perspective.. I guess unless we are in the shoes of victims or the families..we don’t know if they can ever ‘move on’..

I lost one of my players this year and I'm still not over it...my heart is broken and can't even begin to manage to understand what his poor family is going through.

 

[Caveman]

Master owned slaves. You said everything you needed to with those 3 words.

“Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.”

And your seven year scenario only refered to a certain type of human. Can you guess?

And please dont try justify ownership of a human by another human. If your child borrowed money from a lender. Would you see it just that your child be owned by that lender? That the lender could belt your child with a rod as long as he recovered after a day or two?

Its not right pre jesus. Its not right at the time of St Paul. Its not right now

Are you actually interested in discovering what the biblical understanding is regarding slavery?

There's plenty of points in that original post that should challenge your current view on biblical slavery, yet you have come back with this, which is very easily explained with a simple google search.

There is a lot that needs to be discussed and considered, let me know how the other points I mentioned mesh with your current view and we will see if we can kick off a discussion from there.

 

[dogwhisperer]

Not to argue my bro but Lord Jesus never talked about purgatory.

If anything, He rules it out as He was on the cross

“Then he said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ Jesus answered him, ‘Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise,’” Luke 23:42-43.

It is impossible to know whether or not the “good thief” went “straight to heaven” or had to undergo Purgatory. We cannot really judge that. It could be that he died in a state of perfect contrition for his sins and received baptism of desire.

A larger issue is that the Greek manuscripts that contain this passage do not contain punctuation. So did Jesus say to him: “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise” OR “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.” Punctuation makes a big difference.

Another issue is whether in this case “paradise” means heaven. It could also refer to the abode of the dead for the righteous, the bosom of Abraham. In which case the gates of heaven would not have been opened yet until the resurrection, so they would have been together in the abode of the righteous and the good thief still could have undergone some purgation before receiving the Beatific Vision. While this is a highly contested theory of the use of “paradise” it is still debated.

And, most importantly, since the cleansing of Purgatory takes place outside of space and time as we currently know them then the concept of today, tomorrow, or whenever in relation to Purgatory is not a one-to-one analogy.

Generally speaking the most common understanding of the passage has been that the good thief went “straight to heaven” due to his perfect contrition for his sins, but some other theories are also acceptable to the faith.

But I will leave you with this, Sure the word Purgatory isn't in the bible, but neither is the word "Trinity" and yet ALL Christians believe in the Triune God. Neither is the word "Incarnation" in the bible but ALL Christians believe that God became man. The word doesn't have to be there but purification of the soul is most definitely in the Bible and we call this purgatory(as in to purge):

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
"For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble— each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

This passage is neither referring to Heaven or Hell on the DAY(Day of Judgement). Why? Well it's not Heaven because there is no suffering in Heaven, and it's definitely not Hell because the passage talks about still being saved and we know when you're in Hell you're there for good. So if it's neither Heaven nor Hell then what is it? It's clear from the text that it's talking about purification...i.e ..."he himself will be saved, but only through fire"