War Crimes report

[Flanagun]

https://www.theage.com.au/national/...to-39-murders-adf-report-20201110-p56dek.html

Planting false evidence oin the bodies of murdered bodies, officers coercing junior soldiers into executing war prisoners to notch their "first kill". Shocking and disturbing reading.

This is why we should be careful not to blindly glorify those who serve our country. I am sure many are brave and honourable people who go into the service for the right reasons and deserve our respect. However, we can't lose sight of the fact some of our service people abuse the uniform by using it as an enabling device to do unspeakable and horrific things.

 

[Dawgfather]

Shocking report if the allegations are true. On face value they seem to be credible.

This is another reason why we should not run endless wars in far off countries, it just leaves the door open for this sort of disgusting behaviour.

Why do we still have any troops there at all?

 

[Flanagun]

Shocking report if the allegations are true. On face value they seem to be credible.

This is another reason why we should not run endless wars in far off countries, it just leaves the door open for this sort of disgusting behaviour.

Why do we still have any troops there at all?

Because unfortunately war is big business.

 

[Dawgfather]

Because unfortunately war is big business.

It sure is. Which is why I wish voters put this issue higher up the ranks of important issues at federal elections. Same goes for the U.S. - people should be asking why they have been in the middle east for 20 years.

 

[Flanagun]

It sure is. Which is why I wish voters put this issue higher up the ranks of important issues at federal elections. Same goes for the U.S. - people should be asking why they have been in the middle east for 20 years.

The problem is these interventionist exercises seem to have bipartisan support. Everyone is against war until they are in government. In reality it does take time to responsibly withdraw troops from a conflict like this ....if it is done too rashly, we could have another ISIS type situation on our hands....but it seems like despite all the talk and posturing, very little has been done to even prepare for a withdrawal.

 

[Cook]

Shocking report if the allegations are true. On face value they seem to be credible.

This is another reason why we should not run endless wars in far off countries, it just leaves the door open for this sort of disgusting behaviour.

Why do we still have any troops there at all?

Surely where there at the request from there government

 

[Dawgfather]

The problem is these interventionist exercises seem to have bipartisan support. Everyone is against war until they are in government. In reality it does take time to responsibly withdraw troops from a conflict like this ....if it is done too rashly, we could have another ISIS type situation on our hands....but it seems like despite all the talk and posturing, very little has been done to even prepare for a withdrawal.

I was hoping Trump would bring back 100% of the remaining US troops, but it seems like his advisors convinced him this week to only take out half and leave a few thousand. Better than nothing, but I think the better outcome would have been for Trump simply to say we are no longer going to have any soldiers remaining there.

 

[Flanagun]

Surely where there at the request from there government

That's the thing, it's a catch 22.... if we're not there, it's bad for civilians, if we are there, it's bad for civilians. The thing that would have been best for civilians would have been to never have been there in the first place. The reality is, once you start one of these interventionist wars, it's very hard to withdraw without making one hell of a mess. If we are going to be there, we need to hold those who abuse their responsibilities in such horrendous ways to account, at the very least. We are supposed to be maintaining order and stability, not committing atrocities which only add more death, horror and volatility to a nation that already has many problems.

 

[Flanagun]

I was hoping Trump would bring back 100% of the remaining US troops, but it seems like his advisors convinced him this week to only take out half and leave a few thousand. Better than nothing, but I think the better outcome would have been for Trump simply to say we are no longer going to have any soldiers remaining there.

The danger with a sudden withdrawal like that is that before you know it, you have another ISIS on your hands. I think any responsible withdrawal has to take place in phases. But in reality, there's no way to do it that won't get messy.

I think a sudden and complete withdrawal would be a huge risk though....especially as nothing has been done in the past 20 years to meaningfully reduce civilian casualties. In reality, they have increased with every new administration.

 

[CroydonDog]

War is hell. I wouldn't last 2 minutes. And I have good friends who are in the military who i indeed admire (one is a Colonel). Another mate struggles with PTSD.

But the theatre of war doesn't abscond people from some responsibility. This report would have been prepared with much trepidation. It will be interesting to see the fallout. I also expect there to be a lot of debate in media/social media. Many Boomers will be going nuts, particularly as their hero Ben Roberts-Smith was caught up in the discussion a little while ago.

I hope it also leads to a rethink about how and why we join international conflicts.

 

[Flanagun]

War is hell. I wouldn't last 2 minutes. And I have good friends who are in the military who i indeed admire (one is a Colonel). Another mate struggles with PTSD.

But the theatre of war doesn't abscond people from some responsibility. This report would have been prepared with much trepidation. It will be interesting to see the fallout. I also expect there to be a lot of debate in media/social media. Many Boomers will be going nuts, particularly as their hero Ben Roberts-Smith was caught up in the discussion a little while ago.

I hope it also leads to a rethink about how and why we join international conflicts.

Exactly....we need to reevaluate why we become involved in these conflicts and also need to realise wearing a uniform does not make a person a hero or villain, actions do.

 

[Flanagun]

It's pretty telling that most kennelers seem to be sweeping this thread under the carpet.... that's what people do with war every day of their lives. Ignorance is a safe haven.

 

[KambahOne]

I don't want to be that contrarian, but I don't agree with evaluating war time actions during peace times. What occurs to and within people during war cannot be understood unless you have stood in that situation. Trying to determine the actions and thought processes of a soldier during war in the calm and serene environment of a court room can lead to hubris from the prosecutors and a sense of betrayal from the soldiers perspective.

We train, arm and order soldiers to kill people during war. We set the rules of engagement for one side only, send them into life threatening situations with limited knowledge and understanding of what they might be getting into and then we get virtuous when people die. War is the most inhuman environment a human can find themselves in. Judging them on what they do to survive in that environment is unfair imo.

And yes I'm ex military.

 

[Flanagun]

I don't want to be that contrarian, but I don't agree with evaluating war time actions during peace times. What occurs to and within people during war cannot be understood unless you have stood in that situation. Trying to determine the actions and thought processes of a soldier during war in the calm and serene environment of a court room can lead to hubris from the prosecutors and a sense of betrayal from the soldiers perspective.

We train, arm and order soldiers to kill people during war. We set the rules of engagement for one side only, send them into life threatening situations with limited knowledge and understanding of what they might be getting into and then we get virtuous when people die. War is the most inhuman environment a human can find themselves in. Judging them on what they do to survive in that environment is unfair imo.

And yes I'm ex military.

There is no justification for summarily executing prisoners under any circumstances, for shooting defenceless people and planting granades on them in a warzone, or for officers coercing recruits to kill defenceless prisoners as some sort of right of passage. Sorry dude, but these allegations are horrific and inexcusable, IMO. I have some sympathy for junior recruits who were coerced into carrying out these actions, but any officer who willfully pressured subordinates into executing war prisoners should be thrown in a cell and left to rot.

Traumatic events often shape the actions of sexual deviants and serial killers...and they don't wilfully place themselves in traumatic environments Should their horrific actions be excused due to the traumas they endured? Nobody can understand those traumas unless they have experienced them either. We can't always understand the traumas that cause people to do horrific things and nobody who has never served can understand the pressure of military conflict, but that does not mean we can tolerate or excuse actions like this as a society. Some of the findings printed so far are straight up horrific.

If you don't think it should be dealt with in a court room, where else can it be dealt with?

I get that war is an horrific and pressure filled environment that is beyond my comprehension, but I just don't believe we can turn a blind eye to this sort of thing as a society. Nor should we turn a blind eye to the politicians who send people into these pressure filled situations without so much as a blink of the eyelid.

 

[KambahOne]

There is no justification for summarily executing prisoners under any circumstances, for shooting defenceless people and planting granades on them in a warzone, or for officers coercing recruits to kill defenceless prisoners as some sort of right of passage. Sorry dude, but these allegations are horrific and inexcusable, IMO. I have some sympathy for junior recruits who were coerced into carrying out these actions, but any officer who willfully pressured subordinates into executing war prisoners should be thrown in a cell and left to rot.

Traumatic events often shape the actions of sexual deviants and serial killers...and they don't wilfully place themselves in traumatic environments Should their horrific actions be excused due to the traumas they endured? Nobody can understand those traumas unless they have experienced them either. We can't always understand the traumas that cause people to do horrific things and nobody who has never served can understand the pressure of military conflict, but that does not mean we can tolerate or excuse actions like this as a society. Some of the findings printed so far are straight up horrific.

If you don't think it should be dealt with in a court room, where else can it be dealt with?

I get that war is an horrific and pressure filled environment that is beyond my comprehension, but I just don't believe we can turn a blind eye to this sort of thing as a society. Nor should we turn a blind eye to the politicians who send people into these pressure filled situations without so much as a blink of the eyelid.

I respectfully disagree mate. There are circumstances where executing a prisoner would be completely justifiable, repeated attempts at killing your soldiers, trying to give away your position, repeated escape attempts. I doubt any soldier would put the life of a prisoner above one who stands beside him.

And courts often take into consideration mitigating circumstances or traumatic experiences when handing out judgements and sentences.

I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye to these killings, but I would hope the court is military and that they take into consideration the circumstances these soldiers were in when these killings occurred. And rather than punish them if found guilty, I hope they treat them and rehabilitate them.

 

[CaptainJackson]

And yes I'm ex military.

Can I ask you, in what light would these allegations be viewed (ex-military perception vs public perception) when we've had incidents of quite racist private facebook pages with currently serving soldiers as members, a Nazi flag being bought and flown from one of our military vehicles in Afghanistan(https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06...-flown-over-australian-army-vehicle/9859618)?

By no means would I suggest that the whole military has these type of views but wouldn't you agree that a career in military is very appealing for these type of people and hence these type of people committing the alleged war crimes, just won't be seen favourable at all by the public (if it is this type of person)

 

[Realist90]

There is no justification for summarily executing prisoners under any circumstances, for shooting defenceless people and planting granades on them in a warzone, or for officers coercing recruits to kill defenceless prisoners as some sort of right of passage. Sorry dude, but these allegations are horrific and inexcusable, IMO. I have some sympathy for junior recruits who were coerced into carrying out these actions, but any officer who willfully pressured subordinates into executing war prisoners should be thrown in a cell and left to rot.

Traumatic events often shape the actions of sexual deviants and serial killers...and they don't wilfully place themselves in traumatic environments Should their horrific actions be excused due to the traumas they endured? Nobody can understand those traumas unless they have experienced them either. We can't always understand the traumas that cause people to do horrific things and nobody who has never served can understand the pressure of military conflict, but that does not mean we can tolerate or excuse actions like this as a society. Some of the findings printed so far are straight up horrific.

If you don't think it should be dealt with in a court room, where else can it be dealt with?

I get that war is an horrific and pressure filled environment that is beyond my comprehension, but I just don't believe we can turn a blind eye to this sort of thing as a society. Nor should we turn a blind eye to the politicians who send people into these pressure filled situations without so much as a blink of the eyelid.

You’re looking at this with too much emotion and from the safety of your home. Not in the context of being over there where everyone wants you dead.

 

[Realist90]

Can I ask you, in what light would these allegations be viewed (ex-military perception vs public perception) when we've had incidents of quite racist private facebook pages with currently serving soldiers as members, a Nazi flag being bought and flown from one of our military vehicles in Afghanistan(https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06...-flown-over-australian-army-vehicle/9859618)?

By no means would I suggest that the whole military has these type of views but wouldn't you agree that a career in military is very appealing for these type of people and hence these type of people committing the alleged war crimes, just won't be seen favourable at all by the public (if it is this type of person)

A Nazi flag? Maybe they were trying to be friends with the islamists as they fought side by side with the Nazis in wwii?

 

[CaptainJackson]

A Nazi flag? Maybe they were trying to be friends with the islamists as they fought side by side with the Nazis in wwii?

Of course you wouldn't have a problem with a Nazi flag, how about you go back to your keto cook books pete evans

 

[Realist90]

I respectfully disagree mate. There are circumstances where executing a prisoner would be completely justifiable, repeated attempts at killing your soldiers, trying to give away your position, repeated escape attempts. I doubt any soldier would put the life of a prisoner above one who stands beside him.

And courts often take into consideration mitigating circumstances or traumatic experiences when handing out judgements and sentences.

I'm not saying we should turn a blind eye to these killings, but I would hope the court is military and that they take into consideration the circumstances these soldiers were in when these killings occurred. And rather than punish them if found guilty, I hope they treat them and rehabilitate them.

I agree with everything you’re saying here. Armchair judges are judging without knowing the proper context, what war really is like, and the spoilt second decisions needed to be made, and life or death decisions. Soldiers aren’t sent to be fkn counsellors to talk and be friendly with people and ask people politely if they’re gonna give their position away.