U.S. Politics - Thread

[Dawgfather]

I don't think anyone thinks they are the worst in the world. Just that they screwed up. And considering that it's US media, you would think that they would focus on US problems.

My point is that the media narratives have been along the lines that America has been the worst. But it simply isn't the truth on raw numbers and especially not true when you consider the overall context being the complexity of trying to manage a virus in a country with one of the world's biggest populations, with a southern border which regularly has illegal immigrants going across it (no one knows exactly how many, who they are and where they end up), and with a political system which is complex (for good reasons but nonetheless complex with a lot of moving parts and many decision makers).

 

[wendog33]

Meant to post this earlier.

If you want to use per capita stats to benchmark America, they are far from the worst per capita in terms of infections as well as deaths.

By infections they are 12th.

By deaths they are 10th.

Yet the general media narrative seems to be that they are murdering their own population and the worst in the world.

They are certainly not perfect, nor is any country in their response to the virus. My only point is the media (as usual) are completely biased and unfair in their writing on America's response, purely because they hate Trump.

Those figures are debatable.

But

This C19 infection rate will rapidly increase with the even more irresponsible proclamation by Trump that he may be immune from the disease (after being the guinea pig of unproven experimental medication).

 

[Dawgfather]

Those figures are debatable.

Indeed they are. It's already been established that a material percentage of death figures (not just in America btw) are sketchy at best because they include people who died WITH the virus as well as those who died FROM the virus as well as people with unknown causes of death who have COVID attributed to them.

This is not to say COVID hasn't caused a lot of death in America (because it has). However the likely number of deaths which were caused simply because someone caught COVID, is less than the figures reported.

This also doesn't mean it's a 'conspiracy'. It just means that medical frameworks and systems don't always align with the way human beings think they should.

 

[Flanagun]

Meant to post this earlier.

If you want to use per capita stats to benchmark America, they are far from the worst per capita in terms of infections as well as deaths.

By infections they are 12th.

By deaths they are 10th.

Yet the general media narrative seems to be that they are murdering their own population and the worst in the world.

They are certainly not perfect, nor is any country in their response to the virus. My only point is the media (as usual) are completely biased and unfair in their writing on America's response, purely because they hate Trump.

Or maybe it's because they were one of the most well equipped countries in the world in terms of resources to combat/ contain the virus and the Trump administration made the situation far worse than it had to be due to its inept handling of the matter and constant refusal to acknowledge the seriousness of the threat. The highest number of deaths in the world and 10th most per capita is completely unacceptable for a country with the USA's resources. Especially considering the fact other countries such as China and Italy experienced serious outbreaks long before the US and Trump knew exactly the type of threat his country was facing. You can try to spin it any way you want. his handling of the matter has been completely inept and has directly led to the loss of many lives. Not on;ly did he make the initial mistake of downplaying the seriousness publicly, he has continued to defiantly ignore advice from scientists and medical experts as case numbers continued to climb and bodies continued to pile up. Journalists are writing about it because it's a huge issue.

 

[Dawgfather]

Or maybe it's because they were one of the most well equipped countries in the world in terms of resources to combat/ contain the virus and the Trump administration made the situation far worse than it had to be due to its inept handling of the matter and constant refusal to acknowledge the seriousness of the threat. The highest number of deaths in the world and 10th most per capita is completely unacceptable for a country with the USA's resources. Especially considering the fact other countries such as China and Italy experienced serious outbreaks long before the US and Trump knew exactly the type of threat his country was facing. You can try to spin it any way you want. his handling of the matter has been completely inept and has directly led to the loss of many lives. Not on;ly did he make the initial mistake of downplaying the seriousness publicly, he has continued to defiantly ignore advice from scientists and medical experts as case numbers continued to climb and bodies continued to pile up. Journalists are writing about it because it's a huge issue.

Any thoughts on Andrew Cuomo sending elderly people who tested positive back into nursing homes which generated the worlds highest death rate for COVID (in New York)?

Why do you think this particular instance gets next to no coverage by the media despite it resulting in the worlds highest death rate?

 

[Hacky McAxe]

My point is that the media narratives have been along the lines that America has been the worst. But it simply isn't the truth on raw numbers and especially not true when you consider the overall context being the complexity of trying to manage a virus in a country with one of the world's biggest populations, with a southern border which regularly has illegal immigrants going across it (no one knows exactly how many, who they are and where they end up), and with a political system which is complex (for good reasons but nonetheless complex with a lot of moving parts and many decision makers).

Do you have evidence that the media narrative has been that America has been the worst?

 

[Dawgfather]

Do you have evidence that the media narrative has been that America has been the worst?

Nice try. We both know journalists do not write articles that explicitly say "America is the number 1 worst response to COVID in the world".

A thinking person looks at the volume of articles, the themes within each, whether there is a theme emerging (do most articles trash the president and the country, do most praise or do most take a fairly impartial view).

 

[Dawgfather]

Nice try. We both know journalists do not write articles that explicitly say "America is the number 1 worst response to COVID in the world".

A thinking person looks at the volume of articles, the themes within each, whether there is a theme emerging (do most articles trash the president and the country, do most praise or do most take a fairly impartial view).

Actually I lied. Many articles are actually so devoid of journalistic standards that they actually write it in black and white:

The U.S. has the worst coronavirus outbreak in the world: 'The numbers don't lie,' Dr. Fauci says

"I mean, the numbers don't lie," Dr. Anthony Fauci said when asked during an interview whether the U.S. had the world's worst coronavirus outbreak.

www.cnbc.com

How Trump managed to lead the world with the worst response to COVID-19 pandemic : Peoples Dispatch

The United States leads the world in terms of absolute numbers of confirmed cases of COVID-19 as well as deaths. Vijay Prashad looks into how the US continues to fail to contain the spread of coronavirus

peoplesdispatch.org

How the Pandemic Defeated America

A virus has brought the world’s most powerful country to its knees.

www.theatlantic.com

America has one of the world's worst coronavirus responses

The U.S. is doing everything wrong. Taiwan is doing everything right.

theweek.com

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Indeed they are. It's already been established that a material percentage of death figures (not just in America btw) are sketchy at best because they include people who died WITH the virus as well as those who died FROM the virus as well as people with unknown causes of death who have COVID attributed to them.

This is not to say COVID hasn't caused a lot of death in America (because it has). However the likely number of deaths which were caused simply because someone caught COVID, is less than the figures reported.

This also doesn't mean it's a 'conspiracy'. It just means that medical frameworks and systems don't always align with the way human beings think they should.

Ahh, that old chestnut. Do you get your information anywhere outside the Tucker Carlson show?

How COVID-19 Deaths Are Counted

Assigning a cause of death is never straightforward, but data on excess deaths suggest coronavirus death tolls are likely an underestimate

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Any thoughts on Andrew Cuomo sending elderly people who tested positive back into nursing homes which generated the worlds highest death rate for COVID (in New York)?

Why do you think this particular instance gets next to no coverage by the media despite it resulting in the worlds highest death rate?

May want to check your facts on that one.

Cuomo's policy was stupid and did result in many deaths. In fact, 26% of the state's deaths were in nursing homes. That's 26%. Obviously not all were due to the policy, but that policy at maximum caused 26% of the deaths. More likely around the 10-15% mark. That still leaves 74% of the deaths being non-nursing home related. So it definitely wasn't what caused the highest death rate as you say.

Is Cuomo Directive to Blame for Nursing Home COVID Deaths, as US Official Claims?

New York’s governor directed nursing homes to take COVID patients. But is it fair to say he “forced” them to do so, or that his directive led to the deaths of thousands of elderly residents? Most p…

khn.org

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Nice try. We both know journalists do not write articles that explicitly say "America is the number 1 worst response to COVID in the world".

A thinking person looks at the volume of articles, the themes within each, whether there is a theme emerging (do most articles trash the president and the country, do most praise or do most take a fairly impartial view).

You mean "a bias person looks at.."

This is why real data is needed and not assumptions for we humans are highly fallible. It's completely logical to think that the reason for the volume of articles is because it's the US media reporting on US issues.

By the same assumptions you could say that in Australia they are acting like Australia had it the worst. Same for Italy, Spain, and most other countries.

 

[Flanagun]

Any thoughts on Andrew Cuomo sending elderly people who tested positive back into nursing homes which generated the worlds highest death rate for COVID (in New York)?

Why do you think this particular instance gets next to no coverage by the media despite it resulting in the worlds highest death rate?

From what I understand, it has received plenty of coverage and there is a sustained push for an inquiry into his handling of the matter. I am all for an inquiry as long as it is conducted by independent health authorities and not a highly partisan senate. I think Cuomo made mistakes, for sure. He was also facing the real possibility of running out of hospital beds at one stage, although I still think he could have handled the situation much better than he did. I'd go as far as to say he fucked up royally and should face criticism and scrutiny for that. Having said that, the reality is, he overrode that executive order in May and the Trump administration continues to repeat the same mistakes and show a flagrant disregard for people's health and safety to this day. Making mistakes is bad, but repeating the same mistakes day after day after day is worse. It's really no wonder most of the criticism is aimed at Trump....almost every day he does something new to show his negligence. Investigate Cuomo, for sure.....but don't use it as a smokescreen to try and shield Trump's administration from responsibility. The problem of COVID stretches well beyond NY's borders.....and it really is not surprising NY has such a high number of cases considering NYC it is the most populous city in the country that has recorded the most cases and deaths.

 

[wendog33]

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2020/10/07/world/covid-coronavirus?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes#trump-returned-to-the-oval-office-even-as-the-white-house-outbreak-grew

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Actually I lied. Many articles are actually so devoid of journalistic standards that they actually write it in black and white:

The U.S. has the worst coronavirus outbreak in the world: 'The numbers don't lie,' Dr. Fauci says

"I mean, the numbers don't lie," Dr. Anthony Fauci said when asked during an interview whether the U.S. had the world's worst coronavirus outbreak.

www.cnbc.com

How Trump managed to lead the world with the worst response to COVID-19 pandemic : Peoples Dispatch

The United States leads the world in terms of absolute numbers of confirmed cases of COVID-19 as well as deaths. Vijay Prashad looks into how the US continues to fail to contain the spread of coronavirus

peoplesdispatch.org

How the Pandemic Defeated America

A virus has brought the world’s most powerful country to its knees.

www.theatlantic.com

America has one of the world's worst coronavirus responses

The U.S. is doing everything wrong. Taiwan is doing everything right.

theweek.com

I'll give you the CNBC article. That title is definitely misleading. It's accurate but misleading. The US does have the highest number of infections and deaths but it's misleading because it's talking about a total and not per capita. Like you did with testing.

 

[CaptainJackson]

Dawgfather out of interest how old are you and what industry do you work in?

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Dawgfather out of interest how old are you and what industry do you work in?

51 years old. Works as a presenter for Fox News.

 

[CaptainJackson]

51 years old. Works as a presenter for Fox News.

Is his name Fucker Cuntson?

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Is his name Fucker Cuntson?

Yes

 

[Dawgfather]

Dawgfather out of interest how old are you and what industry do you work in?

I'm in my mid 30's and work in a profession.

 

[Mr 95%]

Total tests per capita they're around 19th. Total tests per infected they're very far down the list.



Nah. Slow and far behind. The first case in the USA was in January. By the end of February NY was a disaster. Early March people were asking why they hadn't ramped up production of PPE. Trump ordered the increased production in April. 2 months too late.



Both. Enforced at the state level, encouraged by federal. The federal leadership didn't actively encourage it.



Trump and other white house members deliberately downplayed the virus. Trump even openly admitted that he downplayed it.



It's a bit complex. Much of it is done at state level but domestic travel restrictions, country borders, and state committee organisation is all done at the federal level. In a crisis the country leadership needs to effectively communicate policy advisement with the states. Trump's stance was "They'll figure it out for themselves"



Somewhat agree. The criticism from NEJM isn't that they want the economy to open or close. It's the inconsistent way they handled it resulting the virus still spreading. They even compare it to NZ and other countries that had stronger restrictions for a shorter amount of time and managed to control the virus effectively while the US put half effort restrictions in place leading to not stopping the virus at all. The journal is encouraging an all or nothing approach if you actually want to stop the virus. Sitting in the middle is useless.

Can I like this twice?