Religious Discussion Thread

[Kelpie03]

Thank's ASSASSIN, I agree that the Churches are man managed, (not to sure about man made though) however although I have known people whom "I considered" bad people involved with our Church, most (perhaps not all) have I believe departed over time, ( peadaphole priests, raciests, thieves ec).. We agree on the fact that since time memorial the Church goes who have tried to live by the ideals taught by Jesus have far outnumbered the Judas's who have frequented or are still frequenting the Christian Churchs.
As for your mate, Why does he continually harp on his pet (obsession) that all Churches and therefore all their followers are corrupt and evil. . .

 

[Wahesh]

Oh you're back...I'm still waiting for your reply to post 1300. I'm guessing here, but me providing evidence the bishop is a lying, cheating corrupt piece of shit was enough to make you disappear.

I don't remember disagreeing with you - I simply asked you what it was that he'd done wrong.

Now - please refer to my post and quote regarding the various Christian charities and say what you will on that.

 

[KambahOne]

Thank's ASSASSIN, I agree that the Churches are man managed, (not to sure about man made though) however although I have known people whom "I considered" bad people involved with our Church, most (perhaps not all) have I believe departed over time, ( peadaphole priests, raciests, thieves ec).. We agree on the fact that since time memorial the Church goes who have tried to live by the ideals taught by Jesus have far outnumbered the Judas's who have frequented or are still frequenting the Christian Churchs.
As for your mate, Why does he continually harp on his pet (obsession) that all Churches and therefore all their followers are corrupt and evil. . .

I have never said that, that is just your victim mentality leaping to the fore. I have only ever criticised the corruption, the lies and the greed that exists within all churches and all religions. And to your point about private entities being corrupt, those entities don't pretend to be bastions of personal morals and ethics and values that churches and religions claim to be. That's why churches and religions are the biggest bastions of hypocrisy mankind has ever created as they can never attain the purity they demand of others. They are flawed, they are corruptible, they are self-serving and greedy, that is my point and one I will continue to pursue, like it or lump it, I don't care.

 

[KambahOne]

I don't remember disagreeing with you - I simply asked you what it was that he'd done wrong.

Now - please refer to my post and quote regarding the various Christian charities and say what you will on that.

PR campaigns. If churches and religions first priority was truly altruistic, they would not have assets worth billions and millions. All that money would be given up for the betterment of their fellow man. But that's not how churches or religions operate.

And think about this, if religions and churches did not have assets totalling billions and millions, would there be the level of corruption and greed and lies that we all know exist within them? If they were purely altruistic they would not attract the conman, but they do, because they are corruptible, they are greedy and they all love the money they don't give up.

 

[KambahOne]

So spelling 1 word wrong in the heat of the moment, So now spelling 1 word wrong in the heat of the moment is now a hanging offence, go to your own rotters forum and wallow in the sewer of hate with the rest of the trash their.

You claimed to be part of the most strict and rigid sect of the catholic church, one that demands complete and utter loyalty to their cause and a stringent regime of faith based worshipping and you can't even spell it correctly. You are full of it.

 

[Wahesh]

PR campaigns. If churches and religions first priority was truly altruistic, they would not have assets worth billions and millions. All that money would be given up for the betterment of their fellow man. But that's not how churches or religions operate.

And think about this, if religions and churches did not have assets totalling billions and millions, would there be the level of corruption and greed and lies that we all know exist within them? If they were purely altruistic they would not attract the conman, but they do, because they are corruptible, they are greedy and they all love the money they don't give up.

PR campaigns? They are GENUINE and I know this for a fact because I have been involved. Maronites on a Mission for instance, you would get in a van with others, drive around the city, and give food and other essentials to the homeless. They don't even ask for money, all they ask for are essentials - fruit, canned food, muesli bars, tooth brushes/paste etc and other things the homeless can use, no money is involved or change hands.

As for the land they own, why is it their fault if they own land as a way of investing money to keep their church going? Sure, they church is worth billions, but people donating money giving the church these billions isn't criminal or greed. What we have is a billion dollar religious organisation that requires this money to keep their churches operating.

More than 300 churches have been sold in Australia in the past 5 years. Do know why? Because they don't have the money to operate. I'm guessing with Covid church closures, even more would be starting to close.

 

[KambahOne]

PR campaigns? They are GENUINE and I know this for a fact because I have been involved. Maronites on a Mission for instance, you would get in a van with others, drive around the city, and give food and other essentials to the homeless. They don't even ask for money, all they ask for are essentials - fruit, canned food, muesli bars, tooth brushes/paste etc and other things the homeless can use, no money is involved or change hands.

As for the land they own, why is it their fault if they own land as a way of investing money to keep their church going? Sure, they church is worth billions, but people donating money giving the church these billions isn't criminal or greed. What we have is a billion dollar religious organisation that requires this money to keep their churches operating.

More than 300 churches have been sold in Australia in the past 5 years. Do know why? Because they don't have the money to operate. I'm guessing with Covid church closures, even more would be starting to close.

Even PR campaigns have to have an element of truth otherwise they cannot be believed. I'm sure your church and that mission does a modicum of good in the community. But how much more good could it do if it used all those billions and millions in helping rather than have it sitting there as an nontaxable, useless asset? And I mean useless to anyone other than the church. Not even the government can tax the asset to do something useful like set up a community shelter for people other than priests.

And churches are being sold because no one is attending them. Globally religions are on the wane because more and more people are seeing them in the same light I do, particularly as more and more light is shed on their "activities".

 

[Wahesh]

Even PR campaigns have to have an element of truth otherwise they cannot be believed. I'm sure your church and that mission does a modicum of good in the community. But how much more good could it do if it used all those billions and millions in helping rather than have it sitting there as an nontaxable, useless asset? And I mean useless to anyone other than the church. Not even the government can tax the asset to do something useful like set up a community shelter for people other than priests.

And churches are being sold because no one is attending them. Globally religions are on the wane because more and more people are seeing them in the same light I do, particularly as more and more light is shed on their "activities".

You keep referring to the billions that the Church has. I mentioned to you that money is not involved in these missions, it's all about the donations of items to the homeless.

In reference to the money, Christianity is the most follow religion in the world, and with over a billion followers, there are going to be billions of dollars donated to the churches. What do they use that money for? Well... running thousands of churches in every country cannot be cheap, let alone paying the Priests their small salaries as well. That all costs money.

 

[KambahOne]

You keep referring to the billions that the Church has. I mentioned to you that money is not involved in these missions, it's all about the donations of items to the homeless.

In reference to the money, Christianity is the most follow religion in the world, and with over a billion followers, there are going to be billions of dollars donated to the churches. What do they use that money for? Well... running thousands of churches in every country cannot be cheap, let alone paying the Priests their small salaries as well. That all costs money.

You are deluded if you think the Catholic Church in this country is predominantly about donations to the homeless or feeding the masses or vows of poverty. The below is from 3 years ago at the height of the Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse.

Catholic Church national wealth estimated to be $30 billion, investigation finds - ABC News

There are calls for the Catholic Church's tax-free status to be reviewed after a Fairfax investigation revealing the extent of property, assets and investments owned by the church in Australia.

Fairfax's six-month investigation found the Catholic Church was worth more than $9 billion in Victoria alone.

The investigation extrapolated that figure to estimate the church's national wealth at $30 billion.

The Age's journalists obtained property valuations from dozens of Victorian councils.

They found 1,800 church-owned properties, including churches, presbyteries, schools, nursing homes, hospitals, offices, tennis courts and even mobile phone towers.

But beyond real estate, there was superannuation, telecommunications, Catholic Church Insurance and Catholic Development Funds, which serve as an internal treasury.

The reported figures are in stark contrast to those on the public record.

For instance, the Catholic Church told the royal commission it was worth $109 million in Victoria, based largely on historical costs of property rather than market rates.

At the same time, protection of the church's assets has long been cited as a reason to minimise the payouts to sex abuse victims.

But Francis Sullivan from the church's Truth, Justice and Healing Council denied the church misled the royal commission.

"I think what was presented to the royal commission would have been accurate, all the documents presented by witnesses would have been done so literally, like being under oath," he said.

"So I don't think there's any gross misrepresentation of the church's position."


I'm no real estate guru, but 1,800 church owned properties only valuing at $109 million?? No one seriously believed that, oh except Francis Sullivan from the Catholic Church's Truth, Justice and Healing council which is such a valid and objective opinion. And why would the catholic church de-value it's assets using "historical costs rather than market value" in the mist of a royal commission into its crimes that will result in restitution to its victims?

Face facts, the catholic church deliberately and wilfully lied to a Royal Commission into its sexual abuse of children to protect it's wealth and assets. I do not understand how can you sit there and protect such a filthy, degenerate, greedy, self-serving institution of liars, I really don't.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Quick question. Is this game sacrilegious?

 

[Kelpie03]

I have never said that, that is just your victim mentality leaping to the fore. I have only ever criticised the corruption, the lies and the greed that exists within all churches and all religions. And to your point about private entities being corrupt, those entities don't pretend to be bastions of personal morals and ethics and values that churches and religions claim to be. That's why churches and religions are the biggest bastions of hypocrisy mankind has ever created as they can never attain the purity they demand of others. They are flawed, they are corruptible, they are self-serving and greedy, that is my point and one I will continue to pursue, like it or lump it, I don't care.

With your logic you would make a great comedian, you just can't get your head around the fact that brick or concrete buildings although valuable,are not ready cash, if they were your argument might have some credibility imagine breaking off a few bricks and taking them to a hungry person and say eat these.
Please understand that once the Churches are sold you don't have it any more, and the people who want to meet and worship their would have nowhere to go, thier are still plenty of people who still believe in God. Its obvious to me that what you want is a total destruction of Christianity,
Sure their are some Church goes who do nasty things, and I agree that they hypocrits, but by saying or implying that the Churches are more corrupt than private entities you show yourself to be a hypocrite to, because you will never be able to prove it.
I can prove that at at least one big coporotions is crocked beyond most peoples imagianation, and because of its size it can get away with anything., I've tried to pass the info on to a polly and 3 media reporters so far with zero success, In fact I felt that I was treated with contempt.
I am very certain that their is far less corruption within any of the Christian Churches than their is in big business, and any corruption within the churches is usually one or two persons and usually for only peanuts, unless you count not sell the churches and land as proof of corruption.
Anyway the Churches particularily mine believe that Jesus taught forgiveness for siners, thats why their doors are always open to all who want to repent and seek God, So perhaps if you ever want to repent, (which we all need to do at times because we are all sinners), you could find a way to contact me, and I'm sure I can help you.
You said that you were brought up Catholic, if so you would have learned that their is no sin Jesus cannot forgive.

 

[KambahOne]

With your logic you would make a great comedian, you just can't get your head around the fact that brick or concrete buildings although valuable,are not ready cash, if they were your argument might have some credibility imagine breaking off a few bricks and taking them to a hungry person and say eat these.
Please understand that once the Churches are sold you don't have it any more, and the people who want to meet and worship their would have nowhere to go, thier are still plenty of people who still believe in God. Its obvious to me that what you want is a total destruction of Christianity,
Sure their are some Church goes who do nasty things, and I agree that they hypocrits, but by saying or implying that the Churches are more corrupt than private entities you show yourself to be a hypocrite to, because you will never be able to prove it.
I can prove that at at least one big coporotions is crocked beyond most peoples imagianation, and because of its size it can get away with anything., I've tried to pass the info on to a polly and 3 media reporters so far with zero success, In fact I felt that I was treated with contempt.
I am very certain that their is far less corruption within any of the Christian Churches than their is in big business, and any corruption within the churches is usually one or two persons and usually for only peanuts, unless you count not sell the churches and land as proof of corruption.
Anyway the Churches particularily mine believe that Jesus taught forgiveness for siners, thats why their doors are always open to all who want to repent and seek God, So perhaps if you ever want to repent, (which we all need to do at times because we are all sinners), you could find a way to contact me, and I'm sure I can help you.
You said that you were brought up Catholic, if so you would have learned that their is no sin Jesus cannot forgive.

I understand I'll never be able to convince you of the systemic corruption of religions and churches as you have built up such a belief in them that any evidence of corruption I produce (post 1349) is ignored, dismissed, rejected, disregarded and discounted because for you to acknowledge any of that will undermine that belief, just as it undermined mine as I found out more and more about the corruption and lies of the church. I've had this very same argument with many of family who are still believers. They wilfully overlook all the bad just so they can keep their faith, just like you.

 

[Wahesh]

I'm no real estate guru, but 1,800 church owned properties only valuing at $109 million?? No one seriously believed that, oh except Francis Sullivan from the Catholic Church's Truth, Justice and Healing council which is such a valid and objective opinion. And why would the catholic church de-value it's assets using "historical costs rather than market value" in the mist of a royal commission into its crimes that will result in restitution to its victims?

Face facts, the catholic church deliberately and wilfully lied to a Royal Commission into its sexual abuse of children to protect it's wealth and assets. I do not understand how can you sit there and protect such a filthy, degenerate, greedy, self-serving institution of liars, I really don't.

Mate, did you even read what you posted?

the Catholic Church told the royal commission it was worth $109 million in Victoria, based largely on historical costs of property rather than market rates.

For goodness sake, you even pointed that out yourself. They never valued their land based on assets, they valued them based on historical property costs. If they were not then told to provide a value based on current costs and valuations, why are you blaming them and not whoever at the Royal Commission could've instructed them to review this information and provide updated info.

Again, that;s the Jewish-run media for you twisting it and making them sound worse than they are.

Surprise, surprise.

 

[KambahOne]

Mate, did you even read what you posted?

the Catholic Church told the royal commission it was worth $109 million in Victoria, based largely on historical costs of property rather than market rates.

For goodness sake, you even pointed that out yourself. They never valued their land based on assets, they valued them based on historical property costs. If they were not then told to provide a value based on current costs and valuations, why are you blaming them and not whoever at the Royal Commission could've instructed them to review this information and provide updated info.

Again, that;s the Jewish-run media for you twisting it and making them sound worse than they are.

Surprise, surprise.

The catholic church purposely de-valued their assets so they wouldn't have to pay as much compensation to their victims. Just another despicable act towards their victims, but hey, blame the jews. You are wilfully ignorant beyond comprehension.

 

[Wahesh]

The catholic church purposely de-valued their assets so they wouldn't have to pay as much compensation to their victims. Just another despicable act towards their victims, but hey, blame the jews. You are wilfully ignorant beyond comprehension.

They disclosed what they were basing their valuation on, they were not hiding anything - so why were they not instructed to review this information?

 

[KambahOne]

They disclosed what they were basing their valuation on, they were not hiding anything - so why were they not instructed to review this information?

They were questioned about it, good ole Francis Sullivan from the catholic church's Truth, Justice and Healing council fronted up and said -

But Francis Sullivan from the church's Truth, Justice and Healing Council denied the church misled the royal commission.

"I think what was presented to the royal commission would have been accurate, all the documents presented by witnesses would have been done so literally, like being under oath," he said.

"So I don't think there's any gross misrepresentation of the church's position."

And for someone from the TRUTH, Justice and Healing council to come out and say "I think what was presented...would have been accurate..I don't think there was any gross misrepresentation", I mean come on, not even Sulli can tell the farking Truth and he's from the Truth council!!

The fact you are now trying to blame the commission for the church's despicable tactics is testament to your wilful ignorance.

 

[Wahesh]

They were questioned about it, good ole Francis Sullivan from the catholic church's Truth, Justice and Healing council fronted up and said -

But Francis Sullivan from the church's Truth, Justice and Healing Council denied the church misled the royal commission.

"I think what was presented to the royal commission would have been accurate, all the documents presented by witnesses would have been done so literally, like being under oath," he said.

"So I don't think there's any gross misrepresentation of the church's position."

And for someone from the TRUTH, Justice and Healing council to come out and say "I think what was presented...would have been accurate..I don't think there was any gross misrepresentation", I mean come on, not even Sulli can tell the farking Truth and he's from the Truth council!!

The fact you are now trying to blame the commission for the church's despicable tactics is testament to your wilful ignorance.

Hey, I'm not blaming the commission - I'm asking why they didn't ask for the information to be review.

And Francis is from the TJH Council - 'THINK' has to be one of the most commonly used words from them, because he's not going to state something as a fact (or truth) if he doesn't know it's a fact (or truth).

I'm not defending him or attacking, I'm simply stating that I can see doubts in what has been stated appears to be water tight in giving the Church a bad name - as usual.

Another thing (off topic), but you claim you were raised as a Catholic. Now, you made the choice to leave, however was your choice based on the media reporting into these findings, or something else?

I'm sure you'll find that if you go to a church service today, you'll find most (if not all) of them genuine, particularly when the homily is being spoken.

I have no doubt there are wrong doers in the Church, you'd be blind to think otherwise, however I know that most of the services provided and those who provide them are genuine about Christianity and Catholicism, and I will not let the minority ruin it for the majority. It's as simple as that really. If you want your views warped by a few who are evil and brand all of them as evil simple based on the wrong doings of others, well, all I can do is pray for you.

Painting everyone with the same brush is not something many people do.

 

[CaptainJackson]

Painting everyone with the same brush is not something many people do.

Tell us all again about the Jewish run media?

 

[Wahesh]

Tell us all again about the Jewish run media?

You mean the mob who always refer to the CHURCH (as in Christianity as a whole) rather than an individual (apart from the George Pell case)? They are culprits of this.

And I acknowledge not all Jews are like that... only the ones in the media business are.

 

[CaptainJackson]

You mean the mob who always refer to the CHURCH (as in Christianity as a whole) rather than an individual (apart from the George Pell case)? They are culprits of this.

And I acknowledge not all Jews are like that... only the ones in the media business are.

Oh how wonderful of you to acknowledge that not all jews are like that, it's only the ones who own media, which none do in Australia. But do go on and explain how jewish owned media in Australia is such an evil enterprise and that the only bastions of honesty in Australia are Kerry Stokes and Rupert Murdoch's media empires.