Russia vs Ukraine

[Doogie]

The Russians also maintain that this "special operation" is to protect Russia, stop Russian genocide, and de-nazify Ukraine. Russia hasn't been honest from the start.

Fair play though - not like the West has a long track history of honesty.

 

[alchemist]

Your take on Lumumba is a bit skewed. 1960 - middle of the cold war and like most independence movements - one tribe went to the west and one to the east. And more importantly, the Katanga had Belgian support.

You come at these things from an educated perspective that I appreciate but if we're going to consistently roll out actions from 50+ years ago as justification for what is done today, you're taking the politicians excuse route rather than the peoples view. Which, unless I'm sorely mistaken, is the complete antithesis of communism. If you want to go down that path, shall we put the Holodomor on the table? Just that alone should be a good enough reason for the Ukrainians to tell Russia to fck off if your yardstick is to be used.

The ukrainian people wanted better connections to Europe. They voted in a leader who promised that and he went the opposite route. That started Maidan. And from there, Russia has militarily decided to inflict pain on the Ukraine people. No matter how you cut this, the Ukraine people made a choice. Russia didn't like that choice and started to kill Ukrainians. And if this was the choice of the Russian people, fair play, but Putin is President forever. Hard to take a totalitarian regime seriously in terms of doing good for its own people. Its not like we're talking Brunei for example.

And to use your own words, Russia has trillions in natural resources. The west does not. So why is Russia interfering with African politics? Obviously not for resources. To stop the wests access to those resources. And the big difference is if the west accesses those resources, there is chance the quality of life for the average Niger improves. And before you respond, I agree, its only a chance. Much more of a chance than if the Russians access those resources. Why? They don't need them. Its all about creating new oligarchs loyal to Putin and screwing with the West.

And what makes this particularly disgraceful is the Sahel is likely to be one of the most impacted parts of the world with climate change. Desertification is already causing chaos. Stability is required. Niger was one of the most stable countries in the Sahel and had the greatest chance of getting through the next 20-30 years with some semblance of a country. Not now - thanks to money pocketing and geo politicking, nope. And it will be the average Niger that will suffer. Again - how does this play into the principles of communism?

There is a town in Ukraine called "Sakko I Vantsetti" named after Sacco and Vanzetti who were seen as wrongfully convicted and executed in the US because of their immigrant background and socialist beliefs... The biggest football club in Russia is "Spartak" named after Spartacus who was a slave and fought in the Servile War against Imperial Rome... Lumumba, too, was honoured in the Soviet Union as anti-imperialist... It's ideological rather than political opportunism of the Cold War

Sometimes it's not about justifying current acts with some long ago events... Sometimes it's simply about explaining it... For example, Crimea was conquered by the Russian Empire in the late 1700's, who brought in Russian settlers, founded cities, the major naval base, fought major battles and wars there and generally speaking, controlled this strategically important peninsula for the next two centuries... Interestingly, though, it is a pretty arid peninsula... The answer was to dig a canal from the Dnieper to provide freshwater to Crimea meaning that Ukraine had a level of control over Crimea as a result... Furthermore, in the period after the death of Stalin in 1953, there was manoeuvring by those that wanted to succeed him and the one that did, Krushchev, assigned Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954... The problem was those Russians that continued to live in Crimea... There is an American survey, paper whatever from 2013 that surveyed the people of Crimea as to how they identified themselves and the majority (about 40%) identified as Russians, others as Crimeans and only about 15% as Ukrainian... So when a Western backed coup in Kiev topples the democratically elected president in 2014 (granted Yanukovych was thoroughly corrupt and a pussy), do those same Crimeans that identify as Russians just accept it or do they accept overtures from Russian agents as to being annexed by Moscow?

You ever ask yourself why the Ukrainians blocked the Crimean Canal? Why look to deprive water to your enslaved countrymen? Because they understood the majority of Crimeans wanted to breakaway and the blocking of the canal was punitive on them rather than hampering the Russian military... Hence, why Zelensky in his previous life as a comedian could do a skit about dehydrated Crimeans to the laughter of other Ukrainians

As for Holodomor, which was a man made famine killing millions, it's all dependent on the motivations of Stalin's government (ie. whether it deliberately targeted Ukrainians or whether it was as a result of rapid industrialization and collectivisation)

Obviously, if the collective West has tried to internationally isolate Russia, Moscow will look to new partners and markets in Asia, Africa, Latin America etc.

As for the Niger situation now, we don't know whether the Russians are responsible and they're not Communists anymore

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Fair play though - not like the West has a long track history of honesty.

True. And I don't think anyone believes Ukraine is the shining example of honestly.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

As for the Niger situation now, we don't know whether the Russians are responsible and they're not Communists anymore

It isn't confirmed if Russia holds any responsibility, but when neighbouring Mali fell to military rule, Russia moved in to aid immediately. When neighbouring Burkina Faso fell to military rule, a former lead Kremlin advisor and the military leader of Burkina Faso both stated that there was an alliance between Russia and Burkina Faso.

There's no confirmation Russia is encouraging the coupe belt, but the countries in the belt know that they will get Russian support if they do overthrow the French.

 

[Doogie]

There is a town in Ukraine called "Sakko I Vantsetti" named after Sacco and Vanzetti who were seen as wrongfully convicted and executed in the US because of their immigrant background and socialist beliefs... The biggest football club in Russia is "Spartak" named after Spartacus who was a slave and fought in the Servile War against Imperial Rome... Lumumba, too, was honoured in the Soviet Union as anti-imperialist... It's ideological rather than political opportunism of the Cold War

Sometimes it's not about justifying current acts with some long ago events... Sometimes it's simply about explaining it... For example, Crimea was conquered by the Russian Empire in the late 1700's, who brought in Russian settlers, founded cities, the major naval base, fought major battles and wars there and generally speaking, controlled this strategically important peninsula for the next two centuries... Interestingly, though, it is a pretty arid peninsula... The answer was to dig a canal from the Dnieper to provide freshwater to Crimea meaning that Ukraine had a level of control over Crimea as a result... Furthermore, in the period after the death of Stalin in 1953, there was manoeuvring by those that wanted to succeed him and the one that did, Krushchev, assigned Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954... The problem was those Russians that continued to live in Crimea... There is an American survey, paper whatever from 2013 that surveyed the people of Crimea as to how they identified themselves and the majority (about 40%) identified as Russians, others as Crimeans and only about 15% as Ukrainian... So when a Western backed coup in Kiev topples the democratically elected president in 2014 (granted Yanukovych was thoroughly corrupt and a pussy), do those same Crimeans that identify as Russians just accept it or do they accept overtures from Russian agents as to being annexed by Moscow?

You ever ask yourself why the Ukrainians blocked the Crimean Canal? Why look to deprive water to your enslaved countrymen? Because they understood the majority of Crimeans wanted to breakaway and the blocking of the canal punitive on them rather than hampering the Russian military... Hence, why Zelensky in his previous life as a comedian could do a skit about dehydrated Crimeans to the laughter of other Ukrainians

As for Holodomor, which was a man made famine killing millions, it's all dependent on the motivations of Stalin's government (ie. whether it deliberately targeted Ukrainians or whether it was as a result of rapid industrialization and collectivisation)

Obviously, if the collective West has tried to internationally isolate Russia, Moscow will look to new partners and markets in Asia, Africa, Latin America etc.

As for the Niger situation now, we don't know whether the Russians are responsible and they're not Communists anymore

Everyone except the Russians says the Holodomor was deliberate. And that was prior to all of this.

And I'll counter that with the true inhabitants of Crimea were deported to Uzbekistan after WW2 in a crime that even the Russian govt said eventually was a crime against humanity. So, you mean the Russians that emigrated and stole Tartar land in Crimea after the Tartars were kicked out? In 2013, 2 million people in Crimea. Yet there are 6 million Crimean Tartars in Turkey. Your protests kicked off after the Tartars advocated for a return of their land. And to quote the Tartars, they wanted their land back from the Russian millionaires. So yes, I did ask myself that. Russia built an enclave on Tartar land and the Tartars wanted to ally with Ukraine - so water is a valid military response.

I have no problem with Russia (or China for that matter) building influence. But do it in a way that is better than the West, not worse. China pumping millions into the pacific, I'm good with that. Doing that in return for military bases is not better than what the West has been up to. And Russia promoting uprisings against previously stable govts is going back to the US worst moments. And doing it in a time of socioeconomic crisis in these African countries and lets be brutal, for personal economic and political gain, is getting well beyond some of the US's 'finest' moments.

Bro - you said yourself they are running around with Russian flags in Niger.

 

[Nano]

On a side note, are people in America still struggling to afford eggs and clean water while their government pours more and more money into Ukraine?

The amount of American hate from low socioeconomic and non-privileged civilians towards biden and ukraine is becoming more and more evident too lol

Also how long do people in Europe (they have had it to good for too long, but it seems that's coming to an end) and the world in general give up on ukraine with all the side affects of the constant support via weapons and aid from their said governments?

I have noticed more and more people locally (even from people I know in Europe) just not caring anymore or wanting the aid/flow of resources to stop while their are much bigger issues at home to deal with (cost of living and etc)

 

[Nasheed]

What does everyone think of the notion that America attacked Russia First via Ukraine by baiting them into a war?

 

[Nasheed]

There is actually someone on this forum with half their family from the Donbas.

 

[Bob dog]

What does everyone think of the notion that America attacked Russia First via Ukraine by baiting them into a war?

The USA had no interest in starting a war with Russia.
That part of the world probably speaks the same language and are long lost cousins caught up in Putins power trip of boosting Russia's economy with Ukraine's recources that has backfired by now with massive losses so the plan of a quick takeover has failed and even if he does ever win would take forever to recoup any economical advantage.

 

[Cryptic Ghost]

[emoji1787]

 

[Indiandog]

Hey where is “the Tank” ?

He was the Russian guy I remember who used to post frequently .

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Hey where is “the Tank” ?

He was the Russian guy I remember who used to post frequently .

Can't remember The Tank (but my memory is trash anyway), but Assassin was "Tank" at one stage and he has Russian blood.

 

[The DoggFather]

Can't remember The Tank (but my memory is trash anyway), but Assassin was "Tank" at one stage and he has Russian blood.

Ah yes, the account "between" accounts lol

I kinda remember who @Indiandog is talking about.

 

[Indiandog]

Ah yes, the account "between" accounts lol

I kinda remember who @Indiandog is talking about.

you were Tank? Naah

I am sure it was a another guy who was hard core pro Russian. Very active in Lounge. Majority of his posts were about Russia.

 

[The DoggFather]

you were Tank? Naah

I am sure it was a another guy who was hard core pro Russian. Very active in Lounge. Majority of his posts were about Russia.

He disappeared after he hacked the Murikan elections lol

 

[Nasheed]

you were Tank? Naah

I am sure it was a another guy who was hard core pro Russian. Very active in Lounge. Majority of his posts were about Russia.

You’re describing a guy on LU

 

[Indiandog]

You’re describing a guy on LU

LU?

 

[Nasheed]

LU?

League Unlimited Uleh

 

[Nasheed]

Word outta Eastern Europe way is Yevgeny Prigozhin ( the Wagner ninja) just been killed.

 

[DinkumDog]

Russia’s IAC (aviation regulator) have already released their report. It was an ‘accident’…