Justice For The 96 - The Truth

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grk_adonis

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Whilst a lot of blame goes towards the police etc... there were still thousands of fans who turned up without a ticket trying to get in!!
Turning up to games without a ticket in the hope of buying one outside the game is common across every ground in England...It is the role of the police and ground stewards to ensure the safety of the people. This was not a riot. There was no violence. It wasn't a case of the supporters not having any respect for authority. It was poor planning and stewardship by those who's job it was to ensure things like this don't happen...No matter which team you support, or how much you hate Liverpool, as a human being you should show more respect to the 96 people who lost their lives. Yourself, Rodzilla, and Ozman, should be ashamed of yourselves really...
 

Rodzilla

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Turning up to games without a ticket in the hope of buying one outside the game is common across every ground in England...It is the role of the police and ground stewards to ensure the safety of the people. This was not a riot. There was no violence. It wasn't a case of the supporters not having any respect for authority. It was poor planning and stewardship by those who's job it was to ensure things like this don't happen...No matter which team you support, or how much you hate Liverpool, as a human being you should show more respect to the 96 people who lost their lives. Yourself, Rodzilla, and Ozman, should be ashamed of yourselves really...
you should be ashamed about the lack of respect shown to the 96 dead by trying to apportion blame away from the people who crushed them because of matters of club/fan reputation

if i leave my front door wide open overnight with a sign saying there is a big screen tv inside and $5,000 cash, when someone comes inside to steal it it is still his fault
 

grk_adonis

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you should be ashamed about the lack of respect shown to the 96 dead by trying to apportion blame away from the people who crushed them because of matters of club/fan reputation

if i leave my front door wide open overnight with a sign saying there is a big screen tv inside and $5,000 cash, when someone comes inside to steal it it is still his fault
Your analogy is so irrelevant on a number of levels. First of all you are completely misunderstanding where the injustice was in this tragedy. The police have a duty to ensure the safety of football fans attending a match. In this case, the police and ground stewards made decisions which ultimately cost 96 people their lives. Decisions that were not made in the best interest of the safety of those fans. Despite making these decisions themselves, the police tried to cover up there failures by pushing the blame directly on to the supporters. They made up stories that the fans were drunk, that they forced their way in, and once the crush occurred, they stopped paramedics from gaining access to injured, and were stealing from the dead. Then for 23 years people like believe these lies and took them as fact. Well they weren't. If you actually read the findings of the latest inquiry, you will see that it was in fact the police that prevented the paramedics to attend to the injured. There was a complete cover up of the failures of the police that day. And they refuse to take any form of blame for them. That is the injustice...

That doesn't exclude the fans from any responsibility, but what they did was hardly criminal. They did what any fan would do...

The NRL grand final will be a full house at ANZ stadium. For arguments sake, let's just say that one of the top sections of the stadium fit 1000 people. Due to poor stadium management and planning, come kick off, there are still 1000s of fans with and without tickets waiting outside to get into the game. These fans have paid the money to watch the game, and they are missing out on the match because the turnstiles aren't working. The crowd is getting angry and frustrated. The stewards decide the best thing to do is to open the gates, allowing anyone with or without a ticket to enter the stadium. 2000+ people are now forced into an area made suitable for 1000 people. The barriers that surround this section give way, and people are forced over the top, and onto the people on the lower level. Paramedics are refused entry. Hundreds of people die...

1. Who is to blame for this disaster?
2. Do you honestly expect that the people outside the stadium are going to walk into the section in a nice orderly fashion. Single file. Then once they realise there isnt enough room, they will all simultaneously turn around and walk the other way?
3. As a bulldog supporter with friends/family who lost their lives in this tragedy. How would you feel if the police and the government told everyone that the cause of the disaster, was a group of 500 bulldog supporters of middle eastern appearance who broke through one of the gates and forced their way in to the stadium. Then as the disaster unfolded, the dirty arabs would find unconscious women and take them to the toilets and gang rape them.

All the while, the people responsible for opening the gate in the first place, are knighted for the heroic attempts to save 1000s of lives...
 

Rodzilla

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The NRL grand final will be a full house at ANZ stadium. For arguments sake, let's just say that one of the top sections of the stadium fit 1000 people. Due to poor stadium management and planning, come kick off, there are still 1000s of fans with and without tickets waiting outside to get into the game. These fans have paid the money to watch the game, and they are missing out on the match because the turnstiles aren't working. The crowd is getting angry and frustrated. The stewards decide the best thing to do is to open the gates, allowing anyone with or without a ticket to enter the stadium. 2000+ people are now forced into an area made suitable for 1000 people. The barriers that surround this section give way, and people are forced over the top, and onto the people on the lower level. Paramedics are refused entry. Hundreds of people die...
the truth is there was pushing involved

people in front were standing still and people behind were pushing in, pushing against what would seem like a wall i imagine

so people there without a ticket who pushed, they are very much most responsible for the disaster

police trying to cover up the facts doesnt mean anything regarding the actual innocence of those fans who did that
 

Pom_81

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Right, I’d promised myself a few days back that I wasn’t going to wade into this thread in any serious way, simply because the various reports, half-truths and agendas pushed during the past 23 years make it an absolute minefield. Having seen some of the obvious pro- and anti-Liverpool biases coming out, however, I just wanted to straighten out a few established facts and also give what (in my personal opinion) is the background to that horrific day.

I remember that day clear as anything. I was far more interested in the Everton-Norwich semi-final that day (for some arbitrary reason, my 7 year old self had a soft spot for Everton) and remember the early reports of the tragedy coming through on the radio. These were the days before real televised football in the UK. It’s hard to imagine now, when there’s sometimes fifteen different games shown live in a week, but then there was one Division One (note, pre-Premier League days) game shown on free-to-air TV and pay TV did not yet exist. The FA cup final was shown live, but no earlier rounds were – not even the semis.
In the years since that day, I’ve been to Hillsborough a couple of times and even sat in the Leppings Lane end. It’s unrecognisable from that day, but it does oddly stick in your mind what happened there…

Anyway, here’s my take on the situation. Some of the basic facts, which have been established as such but are being overlooked in some quarters:

While some supporters were obviously drunk, there was no evidence that alcohol was a major cause of the tragedy.

While there may have been a small number of people turning up without tickets, there was no evidence that these numbers were in any way a cause of the tragedy.

As the advertised kickoff time of 3pm was approaching, crowds outside the game became impatient with trying to get into the stadium on time. Police were fearing a crush outside and made the rushed decision to open the outer gates and allow the crowd into the stadium, bypassing the turnstiles.

The number of supporters entering the ground was not inherently dangerously high. The terrace, however, was sectioned off into three main pens with fencing between them. Entry to each pen was via a long and dark tunnel. The setup was such that people entering the back of any given tunnel could not clearly see the terrace at the end of it, so would be unaware of the exact conditions there. At the time the decision was made to open the outer gates, the central pen was already at, or above, its safe capacity. The two side pens were well below capacity. Given the nature of the tunnels into each pen, supporters entering the tunnel would not realise the overcrowding until a few seconds later, by which time a sufficient number of people would have followed them in, preventing any backing out. Also, critically, the overcrowded central pen was directly in front of the opening in the outer gate, so the first one the rushing and impatient supporters entering would have seen.

The principal police failing, aside from the pathetic act of misinformation and silence over their actions, was that the decisions made regarding the opening of the outer gates were not synched up with actions inside the ground. If, for example, shortly before opening the outer gates, the message had been passed through to close the gates on the central pen so that all supporters entering late would have to go to a side pen, then there would have been no tragedy.

In terms of the background (as much my opinion as indisputable facts, unlike the above):

This tragedy was, sadly, a long time coming. The general attitude towards football in society was pretty negative and supporters were treated very poorly. As much as I, like many others, don’t like a lot of the sterilisation and overpricing of modern football, it’s hard to argue the game’s not a better experience for the past couple of decades of progress. The distain for the typical supporters was part of the problem. Stadiums were barely touched or improved since the pre-war days. Many still had wooden seats or wooden steps which were a fire hazard (see the Valley Parade tragedy in Bradford only a few years before Hillsborough for a clear story of how these held up under a lit cigarette). Added to the thuggery and violence which categorised English football through the 70s and 80s, the game’s solution was to put perimeter fences in place to stop supporters entering the field. While these prevented pitch invasions, they also prevented people getting away from crushes developing behind them.

The other problem was with the FA itself. Its insistence on not televising games (believing that the TV revenue would not compensate for the loss of ticket sales – that’s foresight!) was an issue, and the police’s firm belief that they had to get people into the ground for 3pm to avoid a crush outside certainly contributed. Nowadays, and very reasonably, the police would simply let the FA know that there was an issue with getting all supporters in safely on time and the kickoff would be delayed. This was not an option that day, seemingly.

Don’t let’s cloud this issue with other opinions or situations. The action of Liverpool supporters at Heysel is of minimal significance. The paranoia and victim-complex the club adopted over the Suarez race row last year is of zero significance.
 

Rodzilla

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While there may have been a small number of people turning up without tickets, there was no evidence that these numbers were in any way a cause of the tragedy.
isnt the crush itself evidence that this was the cause?

i assume the stadium wouldnt oversell tickets at such a rate
 

Pom_81

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isnt the crush itself evidence that this was the cause?

i assume the stadium wouldnt oversell tickets at such a rate
No, the conclusion was that the total number of people in the Leppings Lane End terrace was not anywhere near enough to cause the tragedy. The problem came because the central pen of the terrace was massively overcrowded, while the side pens had loads of space. The number of supporters in the ground was not the issue - the distribution of them within the terrace was.
 

Pom_81

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Just to tediously illustrate the point:

The failure to direct everyone entering upon the opening of the outer gates into the side pens, rather than the central region was the main failing. Simply closing off that entrance was an option and one, tragically, not taken.



As you can see, there would be little way of knowing, when entering a tunnel through to the terrace pens, exactly what the conditions below were:



Just look how empty the side pens are. A complete waste...

 

Rodzilla

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ah i see

but still i think those fans down there must have been wild and chaotic, like ethiopans at the opening of free all you can eat sizzler

its too bad it didnt happen in todays standards, where hundreds of videos of it would be uploaded to youtube

sure they had no visual knowledge of how bad it was, but for sure they had a feeling of how bad it was because the guy in front wasnt moving anywhere, so the best way to get in is to push him so you can see some football, the mob mentality
 

Pom_81

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ah i see

but still i think those fans down there must have been wild and chaotic, like ethiopans at the opening of free all you can eat sizzler

its too bad it didnt happen in todays standards, where hundreds of videos of it would be uploaded to youtube

sure they had no visual knowledge of how bad it was, but for sure they had a feeling of how bad it was because the guy in front was moving anywhere, so the best way to get in is to push him so you can see some football
The FA refused requests to push kickoff back and everyone (including a few who'd probably had a few drinks beforehand) clearly just rushed in and went to the first tunnel they saw. It must have been madness. I'm sure, as you say, some of the behaviour would have been frantic but they couldn't have known what they were entering.

You say about youtube. The Valley Parade fire in Bradford, which killed 56 people in 1985 is on youtube. There's a couple of videos of still images and the original radio commentary of that day plus (can't embed the link as it's age-restricted, so requires a login) the actual video of the tragedy unfolding. It's incredible to see the speed at which the fire spreads along a wooden stand, and with a tar-lined roof. As the fire spreads, the tar begins to melt and it basically begins to "rain" burning tar. The whole thing happens in the space of a few minutes. It's genuinely hard to believe the speed and scale of the disaster.
 

Rodzilla

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yeah wow, one second it is contained and the next second it is the whole stand

people walking around calm at the beginning
 

UmoGus

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[video=youtube;v6iTSAwGo1Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6iTSAwGo1Y&feature=related[/video]

Horrific images.
 

Doga

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Turning up to games without a ticket in the hope of buying one outside the game is common across every ground in England...It is the role of the police and ground stewards to ensure the safety of the people. This was not a riot. There was no violence. It wasn't a case of the supporters not having any respect for authority. It was poor planning and stewardship by those who's job it was to ensure things like this don't happen...No matter which team you support, or how much you hate Liverpool, as a human being you should show more respect to the 96 people who lost their lives. Yourself, Rodzilla, and Ozman, should be ashamed of yourselves really...
You really need to go **** yourself and get off your high horse.

I've shown my respect for the 96. Just because you are a liverpool supporter does not mean you have a mortgage on what is right is wrong.

You are right that it was the stewards & police job. The fans acted in a reckless manner though. Walk-ups are common but that was ridiculous. They do hold some of the blame too. No though, liverpool FC gets to wash it's hands of everything. You're all victims. You can sing your little songs and feel better about yourselves.

PS. I do not agree with anything that Ozman has to say
 

Özil

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Ozman is banned?...Thank **** for that. He truly is the definition of scum...
Im a scum? Have you had a look at yourself?

Look at the team you support and look at the crap you posted in this thread. Doga and Rodzilla have proved you wrong.

Always the victim, its never your fault
 

chris_e_fresh

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Always the victim, its never your fault
this is what man united fans were singing on the weekend.which is why sir alex and another member of the board said was wrong of man united fans

just makes this weeks clash so much more interesting considering its at liverpool, police presences i would say would be at a all time high.
 

steve_mortimer

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OK I to shall have to put my two cents worth in here.

Firstly, like some have mentioned, many of the supporters were sent into the central pen. The two side pens were nowhere near full capacity. The supporters had no idea of what they were heading into. There are always going to be ticket-less supporters at football matches in England. I spend about three months of the year following LFC home and away and often find myself outside grounds looking for spares which, more often than not turn up.

I was at Hillsborough for the first time only in August for a mid week match and when I took a walk to the Leppings Lane end it struck me as to how small the entrances are and how tight the tunnels into the pens are. Is it any wonder when the Police sent the supporters into the central pen problems were going to occur?

For those of you willing to shoot your mouths off in relation to a tragedy of this degree please perform some research and educate yourself on a topic before speak highly ill informed nonsense.
 

Pom_81

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OK I to shall have to put my two cents worth in here.

Firstly, like some have mentioned, many of the supporters were sent into the central pen. The two side pens were nowhere near full capacity. The supporters had no idea of what they were heading into. There are always going to be ticket-less supporters at football matches in England. I spend about three months of the year following LFC home and away and often find myself outside grounds looking for spares which, more often than not turn up.

I was at Hillsborough for the first time only in August for a mid week match and when I took a walk to the Leppings Lane end it struck me as to how small the entrances are and how tight the tunnels into the pens are. Is it any wonder when the Police sent the supporters into the central pen problems were going to occur?

For those of you willing to shoot your mouths off in relation to a tragedy of this degree please perform some research and educate yourself on a topic before speak highly ill informed nonsense.
Some of the wisest and best informed comments on a topic that often encourages cheap comment, bias and sloganeering. Good man.
 
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