Gus believe all Melbourne Storm premierships count.

[racin jason]

Well Cronulla still got to keep theirs......

 

[coach]

Well Cronulla still got to keep theirs......

That was a joke
Over the cap 3 years before and 1 or 2 after but not that year
Nrl are gutless grubs

 

[sideswip]

Gus is Australia own JOE BIDEN

 

[Motorhead]

Um, hello but weren't the contracts in question, the dual contracts/ set of books , those of the top players in the squad including Cam the man ...They were not paying the lesser lights two lots of payments...

Absolutely. Smith, Inglis and Slater I think. Hoffman might have been the fourth?
Cheating bastards.

 

[Nasheed]

Nasheed here,
I'm not saying Gus is correct.
But please understand where he at.
He has ALWAYS said that teams that develop their own talent (Penrith, Brisbane, saints, Canberra, Newcastle etc) are penalised and not rewarded for their hard work when other teams play chequebook football.
He's of the belief that if teams aren't strong enough financially and don't have their own talent then they should die or at least not have the same opportunities as Penrith etc who should be compensated for the work they put in.
Gus is bugged that it's almost impossible that teams can no longer have a proper dynasty. They are artificially deassembled by players being forced to look elsewhere against their will , and that it's just a merry go round of players.

pick that apart as u will but straight out that's Gus' belief.

 

[KambahOne]

Phil Gould is a fuckwit quite frequently. I don't think the storms premierships while cheating should count. But I do think that the salary cap isn't working. I've got a severe case of kennel fatigue today. So I couldn't be bothered going over my ideas on how to make it fair. But from the perspective of someone who was forced to watch our team torn apart after being caught cheating, the Storm clearly didn't see any serious consequences of cheating.

I think in future if a team is caught cheating ultimately their top 17 paid players should go on the market under a silent bidding system. Let teams struggling for talent bid on them. Leave the details of who bids out of the managers and players sight. Give every other club the chance to bid on the players, put those bids in front of the players and managers without letting them know where they're going, just what their pay packet will be. Penalise the cheating club by removing 200% of the amount breached from their cap for three years. Let their top 17 players make the choice of whether to accept an offer until the cheating club is back below their adjusted salary cap.

This would instantly mean they lose at least one brilliant player or a number of very good ones. This might actually make clubs a bit fearful of cheating.

I actually like the idea of silent bidding overall.

Valid points, but I don’t think you can place the blame solely on the cap for predicaments that clubs find themselves in.

Case in point the West Tigers. From 2016 to 2017, they had the following (current) stars on their books: Josh Addo-Carr, Aaron Woods, James Tedesco, Ryan Papenhauzen, Mitchell Moses and Luke Brooks. The recruitment and retention decisions of that club have come back to haunt them rather than it being a result of the application of the cap.

Another example is you guys. From 2012 to 2014 your squad comprised of names like – Barba, Morris, Ennis, Graham, Kasiano, Pritchard, Reynolds Taupau, Klemmer, Palau, Williams, Finucane, Mbye and Hodkinson. Again the decisions of your club (and coach) rather than the cap brought about your current situation.

I agree that once a club has to start paying overs to get the good players, it’s a difficult situation to get out of. But that falls back onto the board and the people you have doing the recruiting for you.

Cap management is like your weight. It’s easy to gain weight (make bad decisions) while it’s ten times harder to lose the weight (make good decisions).

 

[Psycho Doggie]

Valid points, but I don’t think you can place the blame solely on the cap for predicaments that clubs find themselves in.

Case in point the West Tigers. From 2016 to 2017, they had the following (current) stars on their books: Josh Addo-Carr, Aaron Woods, James Tedesco, Ryan Papenhauzen, Mitchell Moses and Luke Brooks. The recruitment and retention decisions of that club have come back to haunt them rather than it being a result of the application of the cap.

Another example is you guys. From 2012 to 2014 your squad comprised of names like – Barba, Morris, Ennis, Graham, Kasiano, Pritchard, Reynolds Taupau, Klemmer, Palau, Williams, Finucane, Mbye and Hodkinson. Again the decisions of your club (and coach) rather than the cap brought about your current situation.

I agree that once a club has to start paying overs to get the good players, it’s a difficult situation to get out of. But that falls back onto the board and the people you have doing the recruiting for you.

Cap management is like your weight. It’s easy to gain weight (make bad decisions) while it’s ten times harder to lose the weight (make good decisions).

Or get a sombrero

 

[Nasheed]

Valid points, but I don’t think you can place the blame solely on the cap for predicaments that clubs find themselves in.

Case in point the West Tigers. From 2016 to 2017, they had the following (current) stars on their books: Josh Addo-Carr, Aaron Woods, James Tedesco, Ryan Papenhauzen, Mitchell Moses and Luke Brooks. The recruitment and retention decisions of that club have come back to haunt them rather than it being a result of the application of the cap.

Another example is you guys. From 2012 to 2014 your squad comprised of names like – Barba, Morris, Ennis, Graham, Kasiano, Pritchard, Reynolds Taupau, Klemmer, Palau, Williams, Finucane, Mbye and Hodkinson. Again the decisions of your club (and coach) rather than the cap brought about your current situation.

I agree that once a club has to start paying overs to get the good players, it’s a difficult situation to get out of. But that falls back onto the board and the people you have doing the recruiting for you.

Cap management is like your weight. It’s easy to gain weight (make bad decisions) while it’s ten times harder to lose the weight (make good decisions).

Moses, Woods, Tedesco all left on their own. Was widely publicised that the Tigers wanted to keep them.
Pap and JAC they let go. But they did that at a time when speed wasn't valued and the game was gridlocked before the rule changes and props were wingers.

 

[The Innovator]

Phil Gould is a fwit. The most overrated media person ever. I never have rated bee sting head. He failed at the Roosters and sacked Cleary at Penrith. Melbourne have won 4 comps. To suggest otherwise is absurd.

 

[alchemist]

all good... please forward the 2002 trophy to Belmore a.s.a.p

 

[The DoggFather]

Gus also believes thst the fluid in his veins is blood and not gravy like it really is.

 

[dogluva]

Absolutely. Smith, Inglis and Slater I think. Hoffman might have been the fourth?
Cheating bastards.

You are right on the first three but the other player to my knowledge remained unnamed. Cheat of a massive proportion...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-04-22/cheating-storm-stripped-of-premierships/407130

 

[Bulldog_4_Life]

The players will always count the 2 premierships, they got through almost 30 rounds of footy to win the comp, they put their bodies on the line week in and week out. However, on the record and in the history books, the 2 titles dont count and thats how it should be.

 

[The DoggFather]

The players will always count the 2 premierships, they got through almost 30 rounds of footy to win the comp, they put their bodies on the line week in and week out. However, on the record and in the history books, the 2 titles dont count and thats how it should be.

Did they have to give their rings back? I can't recall...

 

[Bulldog_4_Life]

Did they have to give their rings back? I can't recall...

They were allowed to keep them.

 

[red-dog]

There has to be a better way of evening up the talent than a salary cap. While I am aware that a draft is a restraint of trade it works in the afl because their cba doesn't allow the players association to challenge it in court. The cap and the draft are inexorably linked in most sports that use a cap. Teams who develop their own players should have the best chance of keeping them.

There hasn't been a Salary Cap scandal in afl since the early 2000's. Carlton were well over the cap and were banned from the 1st two rounds of the draft for 2 years. Best players were gone by the time it came around to their first pick in the early 30's. Clubs have to draft at least 3 new players every year so not being able to replace them with the best young talent in the draft pool does hurt. Carlton have made the top 8 just once since then when they came 9th after they were put into the 8 when Essendon were disqualified for the supplements scandal.

When that broke out at Essendon they were then banned from the 1st two rounds of the next draft.

Ask yourself what has happened by comparison to nrl teams who have broken the cap? Not much really that stops them from being competitive short term.

The two are linked for good reason. Both are restraint of trade but we only use 1 because the NRL admin since 1998 have not exactly been full of people with the initiative to formulate a system that will work and even out the talent. It also puts an end to players signing for a new club before they have finished playing with their current club which is madness.

Agreed, there has to be a deterrent that is significant enough to actually cause detriment to the club. Look at the dogs in 2002; okay yes we got all our points stripped but the next year we made the prelims and won the cop in 2004. Same as Storm, caught in 2010 and won in 2012. Really there wasn't any significant deterrent as ultimately neither team were hindered. A few ideas:

- Reduced salary cap for subsequent years as a punishment. I mean it would be ironic; your punishment for cheating the salary cap is having less salary cap. Imagine if Storm got hit with a 3 year salary cap reduction in 2010. That breaks up the big 3 which would be a massive punishment for Melbourne. They don't go on to win the comp in 2012, suddenly they have a rebuild on their hands. The only problem with this would be the RLPA would be opposed to it as it means that players would find themselves out of a job as Storm would need to shed talent.
- Starting seasons with an automatic point reduction: The amount of points/for how many seasons would be dependent on the infringement (how large, how many years etc). In the Storm's case, they cheated the cap for something like 4 years so I think starting the next 3-4 seasons with less points than the other teams would be fair. Perhaps 10 points behind; enough that they could make the 8 but basically rules out top 4. Could be an option as it doesn't put players out of work and makes it difficult to re-build without completely damaging the club.

Ultimately I don't think the NRL would impose such tough punishments on clubs which could have legitimate consequences as most clubs are already in a precarious financial state and such a punishment could damage them beyond the point of return.

 

[gbrussell]

Agreed, there has to be a deterrent that is significant enough to actually cause detriment to the club. Look at the dogs in 2002; okay yes we got all our points stripped but the next year we made the prelims and won the cop in 2004. Same as Storm, caught in 2010 and won in 2012. Really there wasn't any significant deterrent as ultimately neither team were hindered. A few ideas:

- Reduced salary cap for subsequent years as a punishment. I mean it would be ironic; your punishment for cheating the salary cap is having less salary cap. Imagine if Storm got hit with a 3 year salary cap reduction in 2010. That breaks up the big 3 which would be a massive punishment for Melbourne. They don't go on to win the comp in 2012, suddenly they have a rebuild on their hands. The only problem with this would be the RLPA would be opposed to it as it means that players would find themselves out of a job as Storm would need to shed talent.
- Starting seasons with an automatic point reduction: The amount of points/for how many seasons would be dependent on the infringement (how large, how many years etc). In the Storm's case, they cheated the cap for something like 4 years so I think starting the next 3-4 seasons with less points than the other teams would be fair. Perhaps 10 points behind; enough that they could make the 8 but basically rules out top 4. Could be an option as it doesn't put players out of work and makes it difficult to re-build without completely damaging the club.

Ultimately I don't think the NRL would impose such tough punishments on clubs which could have legitimate consequences as most clubs are already in a precarious financial state and such a punishment could damage them beyond the point of return.

You raise some good points there with regard to penalties for cheating the cap.

The real problem is the NRL are either too blind to see what clubs are getting away with or they just don't have any clues as to what a better system would be.

In 2010 and 2015 my wife and I submitted 2 different proposals for a points system to replace a salary cap and we are still waiting for the NRL to respond. Sheer arrogance. It just shows the quality of the people in high places at the NRL.The points system we came up with gave clubs a better chance of keeping players they found and developed up to NRL level.

Back in the 1980s we had a 13 import rule where a club's roster covering 3 grades could only contain 13 players who were not local juniors. An expanded version of that probably won't work in this era because the one team cities have a big advantage with the amount of juniors in their system.

The other clubs that have a big advantage are the clubs with many high profile businessmen pumping money into clubs through third party agreements.

That concept is the first thing I would scrap.

Regardless of what system you bring in there will be little co-operation from the RLPA and legal arguments that the system is a restraint of trade.

Players are always going to put themselves first as opposed to what's in the best interests of the game.

At some point the RLPA and the NRL have to be on the same page as their counterparts are in other sports.

The current system will always be a farce while a certain Ford car dealership and the Thoroughbreds are involved financially.

 

[TwinTurbo]

Agreed, there has to be a deterrent that is significant enough to actually cause detriment to the club. Look at the dogs in 2002; okay yes we got all our points stripped but the next year we made the prelims and won the cop in 2004. Same as Storm, caught in 2010 and won in 2012. Really there wasn't any significant deterrent as ultimately neither team were hindered.

That‘s not factually correct, for a start a large number of our players had their contracts terminated and replaced with new contracts at lower values, such that we were Cap compliant for 2003. We also shed 4 players from the 2002 roster that assisted with achieving Cap compliance. As a club we were fined $500,000 (the maximum at the time) and the 2 club officials involved were tried and found guilty of fraud, theft and forgery with a 9 year prison sentence (7 years non parole). We also lost the $100,000 for finishing first in the regular season. Being stripped of 37 points to go from finishing first to dead last is a pretty significant punishment in itself, particularly for the players and fans.

Each one of the above is a significant deterrent, added together it‘s sure as hell a solid whack of punishments that were handed out.

Go Dogs

 

[red-dog]

That‘s not factually correct, for a start a large number of our players had their contracts terminated and replaced with new contracts at lower values, such that we were Cap compliant for 2003. We also shed 4 players from the 2002 roster that assisted with achieving Cap compliance. As a club we were fined $500,000 (the maximum at the time) and the 2 club officials involved were tried and found guilty of fraud, theft and forgery with a 9 year prison sentence (7 years non parole). We also lost the $100,000 for finishing first in the regular season. Being stripped of 37 points to go from finishing first to dead last is a pretty significant punishment in itself, particularly for the players and fans.

Each one of the above is a significant deterrent, added together it‘s sure as hell a solid whack of punishments that were handed out.

Go Dogs

Yeah but my point is that we were able to bounce back straight away and were able to get a premiership out of it. We had a pretty successful few years after with minimal bounceback.

 

[red-dog]

You raise some good points there with regard to penalties for cheating the cap.

The real problem is the NRL are either too blind to see what clubs are getting away with or they just don't have any clues as to what a better system would be.

In 2010 and 2015 my wife and I submitted 2 different proposals for a points system to replace a salary cap and we are still waiting for the NRL to respond. Sheer arrogance. It just shows the quality of the people in high places at the NRL.The points system we came up with gave clubs a better chance of keeping players they found and developed up to NRL level.

Back in the 1980s we had a 13 import rule where a club's roster covering 3 grades could only contain 13 players who were not local juniors. An expanded version of that probably won't work in this era because the one team cities have a big advantage with the amount of juniors in their system.

The other clubs that have a big advantage are the clubs with many high profile businessmen pumping money into clubs through third party agreements.

That concept is the first thing I would scrap.

Regardless of what system you bring in there will be little co-operation from the RLPA and legal arguments that the system is a restraint of trade.

Players are always going to put themselves first as opposed to what's in the best interests of the game.

At some point the RLPA and the NRL have to be on the same page as their counterparts are in other sports.

The current system will always be a farce while a certain Ford car dealership and the Thoroughbreds are involved financially.

I'm interested as to what your proposal was?

The English Premier League does a home grown quota by having a certain amount of home grown players that need to be in the squad. Realistically though it's not the most efficient system; they get around it by usually filling up the bottom of their roster with a bunch of cheap, english players that will never get anywhere near the first team. Also as you mentioned, teams with huge catchment areas like Brisbane would be at a huge advantage whilst the Sydney clubs would struggle.