Electric vs petrol cars

TwinTurbo

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In the previous post I covered a lot of the general things that I have encountered in over 12 years of driving EV's. This post is more about specific examples/experiences;

My neighbour has a Nissan Leaf, in fact his 3rd Leaf, he loves them. He drives the usual commute distance to work every day, which the Leaf handles easily. He also has a treechange weekender not far from Goulburn which he travels to once or twice a month. "The shack" as he calls it is off the grid and previously when he was there he used to run a generator when the sun wasn't shining and the solar wasn't providing enough power (night time etc). Since he has had the Leafs he has used them to power the shack. He does a recharge at Goulburn on the way down and back and the Leaf runs the shack for a 4 day long weekend easily. Note that it's battery is 40 kWh, which, for example, is almost triple what a Tesla Power Wall provides. Leafs are one of the few EV's that provide V2H (Vehicle to Home) power.

Personally I'm not a big fan of Leafs, they are not a great "car" but for his specific uses they are unequaled.

A personal experience, I few weeks back I had the opportunity to try a Mercedes EQB for a few days. I often travel to Lake Jindabyne with the family towing a couple of jet ski's so I know exactly what my normal routine is. Get up at 4.30am drive ~4.5 hours (my wife also drives, so no concern about driver fatigue), drop off the luggage and in the water by 10 am. I fill up once over the weekend, costs about $130, and then leave at 2 pm on Monday and back home by 6.30 pm for dinner. A very comfortable weekend. that we have done many times.

With the EQB I tried the same schedule, it had about 90% charge when I picked it up (the dealer told me that's what they limit all their EV's to). The quoted range is 440km but with only 90% charge minus the drive to home, I figured on getting 350 km just to be safe. People + luggage + towing on a freeway really knocks the range around and at 200 km it was showing only 30% charge remaining.

Range anxiety kicked in and I used the Chargefox fast charger at Goulburn which cost 60 cents per kwh, around $30 and took about an hour. I topped it up to the 90% limit and set off on the 300 km to Cooma (there is no fast charger at Jindabyne). Recharged to 90% again, another $30 and an hour. Arrived in Jindabyne at around 11.45 am. Did the usual stuff over the weekend then topped up at Cooma and Goulburn on the way home on Monday.

All up charging costs $125, which is not noticeably less than what fuel normally costs and spent almost 5 hours over the weekend charging. Which we all noticed.

That was not a typical experience with an EV out of town, it was relatively smooth, no queuing for chargers and all of the chargers were working which is not always the case. I have had occasions where I have had to que for up to 2 hours while other EV's recharged, plus an hour recharging myself. Especially on long weekends and school holidays, when there are lots more people exploring the limits of their EVs'.

I have also encountered another trap, an EV charger may be rated at, say, 150 kwh but the EV's never accept 150 kWh for the whole charge time. They have to thermally manage their battery while charging so they limit the charge rate. Plus at over ~70% charge the charge rate slows, with the last 15% often taking as long as the first 50%. There is more, I have struck a few chargers when individually they might be rated at 150 kWh but there is an overall power limit on the site, so if other people are also recharging then they don't get anywhere near their advertised charging rate, one couldn't even achieve 40 kWh, but you still pay the 150 kWh rate.

FWIW my current ICEV has 5 years warranty, 5 years free service and 5 years loan car when ever my car needs servicing. So my servicing costs are non existent, so an EV would save me exactly zero in servicing costs.

Not wishing to finish on an EV negative, another of my neighbours has a Tesla Model Y, she absolutely loves it after having a Mazda CX90 for a few years. She drops the kids at school then goes to work for a few hours and picks them up on the way home. Programs the Y to charge from their solar of an afternoon and on weekends. Hasn't spent a cent on fuel for over a year and loves not having to go to the service station.

Horses for courses as they say.


Always a Bulldog
 
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Doogie

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This video is total BS, Petrol cars explode way more than EV's
Yes and when you are full solar and not taking electricity off the grid apparently u r fcked when prices go up.

We're not working in reality here mate. :tearsofjoy:
 
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MattyB

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Yes and when you are full solar and not taking electricity off the grid apparently u r fcked when priced go up.

We're not working in reality here mate. :tearsofjoy:
I have solar, yes.

My last bill was $18
 

Doogie

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In the previous post I covered a lot of the general things that I have encountered in over 12 years of driving EV's. This post is more about specific examples/experiences;

My neighbour has a Nissan Leaf, in fact his 3rd Leaf, he loves them. He drives the usual commute distance to work every day, which the Leaf handles easily. He also has a treechange weekender not far from Goulburn which he travels to once or twice a month. "The shack" as he calls it is off the grid and previously when he was there he used to run a generator when the sun wasn't shining and the solar wasn't providing enough power (night time etc). Since he has had the Leafs he has used them to power the shack. He does a recharge at Goulburn on the way down and back and the Leaf runs the shack for a 4 day long weekend easily. Note that it's battery is 40 kWh, which, for example, is almost triple what a Tesla Power Wall provides. Leafs are one of the few EV's that provide V2H (Vehicle to Home) power.

Personally I'm not a big fan of Leafs, they are not a great "car" but for his specific uses they are unequaled.

A personal experience, I few weeks back I had the opportunity to try a Mercedes EQB for a few days. I often travel to Lake Jindabyne with the family towing a couple of jet ski's so I know exactly what my normal routine is. Get up at 4.30am drive ~4.5 hours (my wife also drives, so no concern about driver fatigue), drop off the luggage and in the water by 10 am. I fill up once over the weekend, costs about $130, and then leave at 2 pm on Monday and back home by 6.30 pm for dinner. A very comfortable weekend. that we have done many times.

With the EQB I tried the same schedule, it had about 90% charge when I picked it up (the dealer told me that's what they limit all their EV's to). The quoted range is 440km but with only 90% charge minus the drive to home, I figured on getting 350 km just to be safe. People + luggage + towing on a freeway really knocks the range around and at 200 km it was showing only 30% charge remaining.

Range anxiety kicked in and I used the Chargefox fast charger at Goulburn which cost 60 cents per kwh, around $30 and took about an hour. I topped it up to the 90% limit and set off on the 300 km to Cooma (there is no fast charger at Jindabyne). Recharged to 90% again, another $30 and an hour. Arrived in Jindabyne at around 11.45 am. Did the usual stuff over the weekend then topped up at Cooma and Goulburn on the way home on Monday.

All up charging costs $125, which is not noticeably less than what fuel normally costs and spent almost 5 hours over the weekend charging. Which we all noticed.

That was not a typical experience with an EV out of town, it was relatively smooth, no queuing for chargers and all of the chargers were working which is not always the case. I have had occasions where I have had to que for up to 2 hours while other EV's recharged, plus an hour recharging myself. Especially on long weekends and school holidays, when there are lots more people exploring the limits of their EVs'.

I have also encountered another trap, an EV charger may be rated at, say, 150 kwh but the EV's never accept 150 kWh for the whole charge time. They have to thermally manage their battery while charging so they limit the charge rate. Plus at over ~70% charge the charge rate slows, with the last 15% often taking as long as the first 50%. There is more, I have struck a few chargers when individually they might be rated at 150 kWh but there is an overall power limit on the site, so if other people are also recharging then they don't get anywhere near their advertised charging rate, one couldn't even achieve 40 kWh, but you still pay the 150 kWh rate.

FWIW my current ICEV has 5 years warranty, 5 years free service and 5 years loan car when ever my car needs servicing. So my servicing costs are non existent, so an EV would save me exactly zero in servicing costs.

Not wishing to finish on an EV negative, another of my neighbours has a Tesla Model Y, she absolutely loves it after having a Mazda CX90 for a few years. She drops the kids at school then goes to work for a few hours and picks them up on the way home. Programs the Y to charge from their solar of an afternoon and on weekends. Hasn't spent a cent on fuel for over a year and loves not having to go to the service station.

Horses for courses as they say.


Always a Bulldog
side note - all new mercs now get 5 year free chargefox. guessing your car missed out on that
 

TwinTurbo

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side note - all new mercs now get 5 year free chargefox. guessing your car missed out on that
Next time I borrow a MB EV I'll remember to ask how the prepaid Chargefox works.


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MattyB

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Well - according to @Blue_boost - you'll be really fckd when it goes up by 10% in the future.

Can you handle $19.80?
At the bottom of the bill there was a message, Make sure you have anough funds to cover it, i think ill be ok
 

TwinTurbo

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Well - according to @Blue_boost - you'll be really fckd when it goes up by 10% in the future.

Can you handle $19.80?
I know that you know that that isn't the correct maths, unless the Feed in Tariff increases by the same amount. Which it hasn't for me, in fact the FiT has decreased from 9.5 cents to 7.6 cents while in the same time frame the Tarriff has increase from around 18 cents to 27 cents.


Always a Bulldog
 

Doogie

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I know that you know that that isn't the correct maths, unless the Feed in Tariff increases by the same amount. Which it hasn't for me, in fact the FiT has decreased from 9.5 cents to 7.6 cents while in the same time frame the Tarriff has increase from around 18 cents to 27 cents.


Always a Bulldog
Thus was for BBs benefit. Needed to keep it really simple.
 

Blue_boost

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Well - according to @Blue_boost - you'll be really fckd when it goes up by 10% in the future.

Can you handle $19.80?
We don't do the calculation based on one persons circumstances, according to @Doogie , if you buy an EV you also need to go spend $25k on a solar installation to try make it work. ridiculous. How's does @Doogie example work for people who rent or live in a unit where they cannot go put up a $25k solar installation or feed electrical wires across the road where they park.

I do my analysis based on the majority of circumstances. Just like the Yes referendum, most people applied common sense, agreed with me and the referendum was decided in under half an hour.

If you listen to @Doogie , you will be stuck at Goulburn in your EV, waiting behind 3 other EV drivers for a charge station (3 hours), in 40 degrees heat. For those that listen to Blue_boost, you will fill up in 4 minutes, flip those EV drivers the bird and then beep your horn at them laughing :grinning: as you speed off down the highway.
 

TwinTurbo

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Thus was for BBs benefit. Needed to keep it really simple.
My bill went from $34 to $86 same 3 months year to year.
I'm not looking forward to this one.
FWIW my system is 10 kWh in panels and an 8 kWh inverter (the Endeavor Energy limit) and my roof faces 5% off due north. So no room to go with solar and the battery still doesn't stack up financially. But if electricity keeps going up at the current rate then it will.


Always a Bulldog
 

TwinTurbo

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We don't do the calculation based on one persons circumstances, according to @Doogie , if you buy an EV you also need to go spend $25k on a solar installation to try make it work. ridiculous. How's does @Doogie example work for people who rent or live in a unit where they cannot go put up a $25k solar installation or feed electrical wires across the road where they park.

I do my analysis based on the majority of circumstances. Just like the Yes referendum, most people applied common sense, agreed with me and the referendum was decided in under half an hour.

If you listen to @Doogie , you will be stuck at Goulburn in your EV, waiting behind 3 other EV drivers for a charge station (3 hours), in 40 degrees heat. For those that listen to Blue_boost, you will fill up in 4 minutes, flip those EV drivers the bird and then beep your horn at them as you speed off down the highway.
I can tell you exactly how it stacks up, or not. My fuel bill for the ICEV is ~$2,700 a year and using fast chargers for the same number of kilometres (15,000) in the EV is around $2,700 a year. I could use slow chargers and save around 30% but my time is money.

FWIW around 30% of the population don't have off street parking. So an EV doesn't stack up financially for them and it's not getting any better with electricity prices increasing. It also doesn't stack up time wise for around 1m people who tow caravans, add to that those that tow boats, jet skis, cars etc.

EV's are great for some people, but not so great for other people. So make your choice carefully.


Always a Bulldog
 

Blue_boost

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In the previous post I covered a lot of the general things that I have encountered in over 12 years of driving EV's. This post is more about specific examples/experiences;

My neighbour has a Nissan Leaf, in fact his 3rd Leaf, he loves them. He drives the usual commute distance to work every day, which the Leaf handles easily. He also has a treechange weekender not far from Goulburn which he travels to once or twice a month. "The shack" as he calls it is off the grid and previously when he was there he used to run a generator when the sun wasn't shining and the solar wasn't providing enough power (night time etc). Since he has had the Leafs he has used them to power the shack. He does a recharge at Goulburn on the way down and back and the Leaf runs the shack for a 4 day long weekend easily. Note that it's battery is 40 kWh, which, for example, is almost triple what a Tesla Power Wall provides. Leafs are one of the few EV's that provide V2H (Vehicle to Home) power.

Personally I'm not a big fan of Leafs, they are not a great "car" but for his specific uses they are unequaled.

A personal experience, I few weeks back I had the opportunity to try a Mercedes EQB for a few days. I often travel to Lake Jindabyne with the family towing a couple of jet ski's so I know exactly what my normal routine is. Get up at 4.30am drive ~4.5 hours (my wife also drives, so no concern about driver fatigue), drop off the luggage and in the water by 10 am. I fill up once over the weekend, costs about $130, and then leave at 2 pm on Monday and back home by 6.30 pm for dinner. A very comfortable weekend. that we have done many times.

With the EQB I tried the same schedule, it had about 90% charge when I picked it up (the dealer told me that's what they limit all their EV's to). The quoted range is 440km but with only 90% charge minus the drive to home, I figured on getting 350 km just to be safe. People + luggage + towing on a freeway really knocks the range around and at 200 km it was showing only 30% charge remaining.

Range anxiety kicked in and I used the Chargefox fast charger at Goulburn which cost 60 cents per kwh, around $30 and took about an hour. I topped it up to the 90% limit and set off on the 300 km to Cooma (there is no fast charger at Jindabyne). Recharged to 90% again, another $30 and an hour. Arrived in Jindabyne at around 11.45 am. Did the usual stuff over the weekend then topped up at Cooma and Goulburn on the way home on Monday.

All up charging costs $125, which is not noticeably less than what fuel normally costs and spent almost 5 hours over the weekend charging. Which we all noticed.

That was not a typical experience with an EV out of town, it was relatively smooth, no queuing for chargers and all of the chargers were working which is not always the case. I have had occasions where I have had to que for up to 2 hours while other EV's recharged, plus an hour recharging myself. Especially on long weekends and school holidays, when there are lots more people exploring the limits of their EVs'.

I have also encountered another trap, an EV charger may be rated at, say, 150 kwh but the EV's never accept 150 kWh for the whole charge time. They have to thermally manage their battery while charging so they limit the charge rate. Plus at over ~70% charge the charge rate slows, with the last 15% often taking as long as the first 50%. There is more, I have struck a few chargers when individually they might be rated at 150 kWh but there is an overall power limit on the site, so if other people are also recharging then they don't get anywhere near their advertised charging rate, one couldn't even achieve 40 kWh, but you still pay the 150 kWh rate.

FWIW my current ICEV has 5 years warranty, 5 years free service and 5 years loan car when ever my car needs servicing. So my servicing costs are non existent, so an EV would save me exactly zero in servicing costs.

Not wishing to finish on an EV negative, another of my neighbours has a Tesla Model Y, she absolutely loves it after having a Mazda CX90 for a few years. She drops the kids at school then goes to work for a few hours and picks them up on the way home. Programs the Y to charge from their solar of an afternoon and on weekends. Hasn't spent a cent on fuel for over a year and loves not having to go to the service station.

Horses for courses as they say.


Always a Bulldog
@Doogie certainly didn't like to read a real world example. really good points about towing or loading up an EV decimates the range. Charge stations ripping customers off with slow charges but higher rates. @Doogie certainly didnt factor any of this in his calculations, only that he had to spend $25k at home just to charge up his car. :grinning:
 

Blue_boost

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I also have to commend @Doogie for his calculations.. Spend $25k on his solar setup to save $2000 per year but the solar setup needs replacing after 7-10 years, so he is still short $5-10k at the end of the cycle. :grinning: champagne business case
 

Doogie

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My bill went from $34 to $86 same 3 months year to year.
I'm not looking forward to this one.
FWIW my system is 10 kWh in panels and an 8 kWh inverter (the Endeavor Energy limit) and my roof faces 5% off due north. So no room to go with solar and the battery still doesn't stack up financially. But if electricity keeps going up at the current rate then it will.


Always a Bulldog
Comparing quarters year to year needs to also consider usage year to year. Last year was cooler than this year with the flow ons. Our house, leaky hot water valve not noticed for 6 months. That hurt.

Yeah, real estate for solar is a big one. I'm about to buy a new house and a big criteria for me is that real estate. I sort of estimated based on bills around 11kw including the ev. So by going to 13 or 14 kW with a 12 kW battery think im good. Where and what I'm looking for, full exposure and the necessary real estate.

German batteries stack to 12kw, 10 year guarantee and so far no issues (apparently Tesla service is rubbish and lg just recalled just about everything for some reason).

You just gotta do the numbers.... unlike @Blue_boost
 

Blue_boost

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German batteries stack to 12kw, 10 year guarantee and so far no issues (apparently Tesla service is rubbish and lg just recalled just about everything for some reason).

You just gotta do the numbers.... unlike @Blue_boost
do you want you homes burnt to smithereens as well? I wouldn’t install a big battery on my house to go kaboom. Your insurance company will punish you after a few houses go up in smoke..

Did you factor this into your calculations?

@Doogie being “green” sounds good but it comes at your own cost. A cost the majority are not willing to bear
 

Doogie

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do you want you homes burnt to smithereens as well? I wouldn’t install a big battery on my house to go kaboom. Your insurance company will punish you after a few houses go up in smoke..

Did you factor this into your calculations?

@Doogie being “green” sounds good but it comes at your own cost. A cost the majority are not willing to bear
Really. So the ACCC reported 9 instances this year in Australia related to batteries. Of which one, yep one, burnt the house down. And that battery has been completely recalled across Australia.

And per Fire and Rescue - 40% of house fires are straight up electrical faults or electrical appliances. The other 60% are cigarettes, candles, gas/fire heaters and arson. No mention of home electrical batteries champ.

So why would I factor nonsense into calculations on the advice of someone who thinks electricity prices going up are a problem for someone completely off the grid? You really need to find another hill on this - you're just embarrassing yourself.

But its good to know though that in the world of BB...
- no phone - lithium batteries cause fires
- no electricity - that causes fires too
- no car - they burn up too frequently

U must be burning up Maccas wifi atm on a phone cable. Good man - save yourself some $$$'s...
 

Blue_boost

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Really. So the ACCC reported 9 instances this year in Australia related to batteries. Of which one, yep one, burnt the house down. And that battery has been completely recalled across Australia.
..
so all the batteries recalled were safe or sitting timebombs?

I think a mobile Phone battery is very different
To a battery you would fit to a house. I like to sleep in peace not be worried before you go to bed my solar house battery or electric car charging underneath me is going to go kaboom! :grinning:

I think @Doogie is a very unique specimen on here.. he makes arguments and debunks his own arguments two or three sentences later :grinning:

See my costings above, did you like them? At the moment electric cars just don’t add up. Nor do most home solar installations, a scam. I love it when solar home owners say my last electricity bill was $30… but they don’t mention it cost them $20,000 to install haha :grinning:. Payback period of 20 years when the panels only last 7-10 years lol

I admit I have solar panels on my roof installed by the previous owner.. one bill I saw a rebate in the period of 24cents

be “green” he say, not at my cost I say, kick those solar salesman (including Steve Waugh) in the guts
 
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speedy2460

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EV's are good as long as you dont go long distances or want to tow anything.
Also plan on an overnight stay as you wait for the car to charge.
 
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