Why we lost. Is the coach or are the players at fault?

[bradyk]

First try
1. six again penalty on the 3rd tackle. Lewis.
2. penalty - high tackle. Napa.
3. Lewis flys in to tackle playmaker - Flanagan. On the next play the team doesn't shift to the left where Lewis would of been defending. No communication and low game sense from RFM, Averillo and Meaney (all at fault).

Second try
1. error - drop ball. Lewis.
2. error - drop ball. Meaney. If Meaney gathers the intercept we score at the other end.

Third try
1. six again penalty on the 2nd tackle. Elliott.
2. error - drop ball. Meaney.
3. Averillo caught out defensively - covering Tedesco who Lewis is already covering, massive hole. RFM's probably at fault too, defending behind the line.

Fourth try
1. multiple quick play the balls. Napa was offside due to a quick play the ball. Elliott grabbing Tupouniua instead of tackling. Tupouniua runs through a hole where Napa would of been defending. A lot of players (To'omaga, JMK and Jackson) are asleep around the play.

I'm not going to go through and analyse the rest of the game. From the eye test and my feel of the game after the first 25 minutes we played quite well. There was a period where we were unlucky not to score a couple of tries. We honestly lost this game due to a terrible start which we caused ourselves with six agains, penalties and errors. We also have to capitalise on our opportunities. Besides the difference in quality between the sides being night and day that was the only difference last night. We stayed in the contest and the effort was there. I think there was a bit of an overreaction last night. I don't think Pay is our saviour but I'm also not #Payout as I honestly don't think he's done a bad job considering everything. The problem is as far as we know a top coach isn't available. If you just look at the scoreboard and didn't watch the game last night it looks rough but there is a lot more that goes into it.

 

[cntrbry bnkstwn]

bombed one try chance where averillo missed a draw and pass, but in the end it doesn't even matter

 

[bradyk]

bombed one try chance where averillo missed a draw and pass, but in the end it doesn't even matter

From the top of my head there was at least two others. Crichton in the corner and Foran (?) with support play but was stopped right before the line. There was also a couple plays to the left where we had numbers but Roosters played for the intercept.

 

[diddly]

First try
1. six again penalty on the 3rd tackle. Lewis.
2. penalty - high tackle. Napa.
3. Lewis flys in to tackle playmaker - Flanagan. On the next play the team doesn't shift to the left where Lewis would of been defending. No communication and low game sense from RFM, Averillo and Meaney (all at fault).

Second try
1. error - drop ball. Lewis.
2. error - drop ball. Meaney. If Meaney gathers the intercept we score at the other end.

Third try
1. six again penalty on the 2nd tackle. Elliott.
2. error - drop ball. Meaney.
3. Averillo caught out defensively - covering Tedesco who Lewis is already covering, massive hole. RFM's probably at fault too, defending behind the line.

Fourth try
1. multiple quick play the balls. Napa was offside due to a quick play the ball. Elliott grabbing Tupouniua instead of tackling. Tupouniua runs through a hole where Napa would of been defending. A lot of players (To'omaga, JMK and Jackson) are asleep around the play.

I'm not going to go through and analyse the rest of the game. From the eye test and my feel of the game after the first 25 minutes we played quite well. There was a period where we were unlucky not to score a couple of tries. We honestly lost this game due to a terrible start which we caused ourselves with six agains, penalties and errors. We also have to capitalise on our opportunities. Besides the difference in quality between the sides being night and day that was the only difference last night. We stayed in the contest and the effort was there. I think there was a bit of an overreaction last night. I don't think Pay is our saviour but I'm also not #Payout as I honestly don't think he's done a bad job considering everything. The problem is as far as we know a top coach isn't available. If you just look at the scoreboard and didn't watch the game last night it looks rough but there is a lot more that goes into it.

You make some valid points in your analysis - i too am not a "get rid of pay right now" critic, but performances such as the first 25 minutes last night have happened three times this year - against Manly defence was pathetic - the scoreline was minimised due to poor goalkicking, against the Cowboys the first half was terrible as well. The squad is weak no doubt but players areas of weakness are not being improved.

Even the first 20 against St george the dogs were terrible.

 

[James zac]

Out classed simple as that

 

[Spoonman84]

From the top of my head there was at least two others. Crichton in the corner and Foran (?) with support play but was stopped right before the line.

Britt gave up on supporting Foran when he broke the line. He would have scored if he had bothered to continue his run.

 

[KiwiDog7]

I didn't see the game (thankfully) but by all reports sounds like Lewis had a blinder lol
If Wakeham isn't picked next week Pay needs to fall on his sword.

We all agree Pay does not have the strongest roster in the competition
but he makes it so much harder for himself with the baffling selections among many other flaws

I know he is so fixated on defence and offers fk all with attacking game plans but someone needs to tell him that the best defence is attack.

I.e. Start Renouf Toomaga
Start Wakeham drop Lewis

 

[Caveman]

Britt gave up on supporting Foran when he went broke then line. He would have scored if he had bothered to continue his run.

Gotta coach it in to them - support, support, support - both in attack and defence.

 

[bradyk]

You make some valid points in your analysis - i too am not a "get rid of pay right now" critic, but performances such as the first 25 minutes last night have happened three times this year - against Manly defence was pathetic - the scoreline was minimised due to poor goalkicking, against the Cowboys the first half was terrible as well. The squad is weak no doubt but players areas of weakness are not being improved.

Even the first 20 against St george the dogs were terrible.

I think we performed better last night than against Cowboys or Manly. It's just hard for me to blame the coach for six agains, penalties and errors. You just don't give yourself a chance doing that, especially against good opposition.

 

[bradyk]

I didn't see the game (thankfully) but by all reports sounds like Lewis had a blinder lol
If Wakeham isn't picked next week Pay needs to fall on his sword.

We all agree Pay does not have the strongest roster in the competition
but he makes it so much harder for himself with the baffling selections among many other flaws

I know he is so fixated on defence and offers fk all with attacking game plans but someone needs to tell him that the best defence is attack.

I.e. Start Renouf Toomaga
Start Wakeham drop Lewis

From the outside there are changes I'd make to the roster and even I can't deny some of Pay's roster decisions have left me scratching my head but I really don't think that's why we lost last night and a lot of people have a slightly different opinion on what our best line-up is. If you just go through the countless threads there are so many different opinions.

 

[Baseball Furies]

bombed one try chance where averillo missed a draw and pass, but in the end it doesn't even matter

Yeah, that was a “welcome to first grade” moment, needed to nail that, would’ve made the scoreboard look a lot nicer at that stage of the game also. Great acceleration by Averillo to make that happen in the first place, you expect errors at his age and tenure in first grade.
I mean did you see the very highly-touted Stephen Crichton the other night, Waqa Blake schooled him 3 times in about 5mins and ultimately it cost them the game. They’re young kids, it’s going to happen...

 

[diddly]

I think we performed better last night than against Cowboys or Manly. It's just hard for me to blame the coach for six agains, penalties and errors. You just don't give yourself a chance doing that, especially against good opposition.

Get what you are saying - the players are ultimately the ones who make the mistakes on the field - and some of those on the field are just not good enough to be playing at that level. Re the coach admin responsibilities is in selection and preparation - indications are they repeatedly are getting this wrong - how many times will Lewis throw a pass to no one or along the ground, how many times will Meaney be dominated in attack and arm grab in defence before being held accountable.

 

[Raysie]

Players are at fault, while the coach is the enabler.

 

[Mr Shhh]

most of our squad are reserve graders. Not their fault, they are just not up to NRL standards on a consistent basis.

 

[bradyk]

Get what you are saying - the players are ultimately the ones who make the mistakes on the field - and some of those on the field are just not good enough to be playing at that level. Re the coach admin responsibilities is in selection and preparation - indications are they repeatedly are getting this wrong - how many times will Lewis throw a pass to no one or along the ground, how many times will Meaney be dominated in attack and arm grab in defence before being held accountable.

Lewis has Wakeham and Cogger putting pressure on him. If Lewis isn't playing well he needs to be dropped. That's the same with JMK (with Katoa), Meaney (with Crichton, Harper, Tass), etc. We don't have the best players to replace them but they have to be put on notice at some point (I feel like Pay actually has done this in previous seasons, it's just these players come back into the side). That's my opinion from the outside anyways.

 

[Spoonman84]

Yeah, that was a “welcome to first grade” moment, needed to nail that, would’ve made the scoreboard look a lot nicer at that stage of the game also. Great acceleration by Averillo to make that happen in the first place, you expect errors at his age and tenure in first grade.
I mean did you see the very highly-touted Stephen Crichton the other night, Waqa Blake schooled him 3 times in about 5mins and ultimately it cost them the game. They’re young kids, it’s going to happen...

In a weird way games like last night are good for his development. It shows him what he needs to work on and improve. You don’t want too many more games like that but the odd one here and there is good for a player his age coming into NRL. How he bounces back and learns from it will be telling.

 

[SweetFA]

First try
1. six again penalty on the 3rd tackle. Lewis.
2. penalty - high tackle. Napa.
3. Lewis flys in to tackle playmaker - Flanagan. On the next play the team doesn't shift to the left where Lewis would of been defending. No communication and low game sense from RFM, Averillo and Meaney (all at fault).

Second try
1. error - drop ball. Lewis.
2. error - drop ball. Meaney. If Meaney gathers the intercept we score at the other end.

Third try
1. six again penalty on the 2nd tackle. Elliott.
2. error - drop ball. Meaney.
3. Averillo caught out defensively - covering Tedesco who Lewis is already covering, massive hole. RFM's probably at fault too, defending behind the line.

Fourth try
1. multiple quick play the balls. Napa was offside due to a quick play the ball. Elliott grabbing Tupouniua instead of tackling. Tupouniua runs through a hole where Napa would of been defending. A lot of players (To'omaga, JMK and Jackson) are asleep around the play.

I'm not going to go through and analyse the rest of the game. From the eye test and my feel of the game after the first 25 minutes we played quite well. There was a period where we were unlucky not to score a couple of tries. We honestly lost this game due to a terrible start which we caused ourselves with six agains, penalties and errors. We also have to capitalise on our opportunities. Besides the difference in quality between the sides being night and day that was the only difference last night. We stayed in the contest and the effort was there. I think there was a bit of an overreaction last night. I don't think Pay is our saviour but I'm also not #Payout as I honestly don't think he's done a bad job considering everything. The problem is as far as we know a top coach isn't available. If you just look at the scoreboard and didn't watch the game last night it looks rough but there is a lot more that goes into it.

It’s a “What came first the chicken or the egg” dilemma.
Were Pays positional selections the best it could have been last night?
Were they the best 17 players available last night?
Given that the Roosters played without their enforcer JWH & you wouldn’t know it given how emphatically we were embarrassed through the middle.
All the critics of Jake Friend are quiet given his work rate & overall performance last night - both in attack & defence.
On the other side of the coin, is it the individual brilliance of the Roosters players or the coaching systems implemented by Robinson & Co where you bring in a new kid & the change is seamless?

 

[Baseball Furies]

In a weird way games like last night are good for his development. It shows him what he needs to work on and improve. You don’t want too many more games like that but the odd one here and there is good for a player his age coming into NRL. How he bounces back and learns from it will be telling.

I couldn’t agree more, there was a moment that Tedesco put a move on him and brushed him aside and I thought to myself, he must be thinking that’s the level I need to get to and I’ve got a long way to go - keep working hard!

I hope that’s what he was thinking....

 

[wendog33]

You make some valid points in your analysis - i too am not a "get rid of pay right now" critic, but performances such as the first 25 minutes last night have happened three times this year - against Manly defence was pathetic - the scoreline was minimised due to poor goalkicking, against the Cowboys the first half was terrible as well. The squad is weak no doubt but players areas of weakness are not being improved.

Even the first 20 against St george the dogs were terrible.

This is why Pay is seen as not the coach able to progress the team.

We need everything going for us. Fair enough we don't have the quality. We all know that.

Due to our deficiencies we need the coach to he on his game as well.

We haven't had the best 17 picked. We don't have on point gameplans, we aren't getting the best performance out of what cattle we have got. The bench rotations aren't timely at crucial parts of the game. We have amateur hour selections of wingers and centres on the bench. It goes on and on.

If Pay would only get these simple, basic things right, he couldn't be criticised for them. It's so elementary.


We quickly blame the players but at what point do you say the coach isn't good enough either.

Some of us have stopped the bus and realise we need a better driver.

 

[bradyk]

It’s a “What came first the chicken or the egg” dilemma.
Were Pays positional selections the best it could have been last night?
Were they the best 17 players available last night?
Given that the Roosters played without their enforcer JWH & you wouldn’t know it given how emphatically we were embarrassed through the middle.
All the critics of Jake Friend are quiet given his work rate & overall performance last night - both in attack & defence.
On the other side of the coin, is it the individual brilliance of the Roosters players or the coaching systems implemented by Robinson & Co where you bring in a new kid & the change is seamless?

1. From the outside I'd have slight changes. I'm not so sure myself it'll make that much of a difference.
2. Possibly the best 17 players, if not very close.
3. We don't have an enforcer. This is another reason why I have a massive issue with Napa. Collins played that role for the Roosters quite well.
4. After Harry Grant or Brandon Smith, Jake Friend for two years would be the best hooker we could sign (unless it's something crazy and out of the box). Besides being injury prone you can't criticise Friend.
5. It's a lot easier for a kid to develop in a good team (good players and systems around you). They've been at top top for quite some time now. Credit to their management, coach and marquee players.