Shaun Johnson consolidated thread

Bulldogsteve

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vegny said:
Anyone remember the reserve grade comp we won 3 or 4 years ago? We beat sharks i think in final or semi. Sharks were fav and flanno was their half then. We had nu brown i think. Not trying to criticise him too much but he was not that dominating even in lower grade then. Not sure how he bumped up his value so quick. May be the club should take some blame.
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if that was the case then flanno would have been about 18 or so, so very young.
 
TwinTurbo

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wendog33 said:
Ok fair enough.

But do you really think Des and Castle honestly thought they could manage all those machinations of money, tax, relocating players.

You put a scenario of 10 or so players at least that were all at least double their value in their last year. Surely even Des and Castle would have been passing bricks when realising that scenario is unworkable and way beyond any sane persons ability to manipulate and therefore arrange such transfers.

Also how could these contracts be approved by the sc committee? Presenting these contracts to the sc auditor, you would imagine simple calculations using your fingers and toes tells you its way over?

Not saying what you've explained is not correct but its hard to accept Des/Dib/Castle as masterminds who thought they were able to pull off such a ever increasing amount of contracts and hire and get rid of players to such an extent.
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The methodology was pretty simple, if you have say a $600k player ($1.8m for 3 years) then you "under pay" him $250k in the first year, pay him about the right amount in the 2nd year and them "over pay" him $250k in the 3rd year. The belief being that you can move him on at the end of the 2nd year and avoid paying the $850k in the 3rd year. Effectively you have had a $1.2m player ($600k x 2 years) and only had $850k in your Cap (for the 2 years combined). Do that with half of your regular 19 NRL players and you have $12m "worth" of players and still be under a $9m Cap.

The Cap is audited by year, they don't care about next year or the year after, only what is the Cap this year and what is the total value of contracts this year. If the total value of player contracts this year is under this year's Cap then all is well. Of course the NRL knew that if players weren't offloaded before next year then there would be Cap breach. But it wasn't against the NRL rules at that time to have back ended contracts, so no issue until the year it actually happens. It was actually going to happen to us in 2018, without drastic actions being taken we were going to be more than $3m over the Cap.

Looking back 2012 was the year that started the rot for Hasler, we were supposed to win the premiership that year and offload the back ended contracted players in 2013. Then the repeat in 2014 was just the final nail in that coffin, same problem no one wanted to pay the inflated player contracts so we had to pay other teams to take them. In 2017 the true extent of the back ending was "discovered" by the Board and we all know what happened after that.

FWIW we didn't start this, Melbourne did similar from 2006 to 2010 where, as we all know, they had 2 contracts, one registered with the NRL and one of a higher value that the players were actually paid to. The NRL contract versions were the same value each year but the players' contract versions were actually back ended, a concept that Hasler used at Manly in 2010 and 2011 and then brought to us.


Always a Bulldog
 
The DoggFather

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EzyB said:
Come on everyone thought flano was the next Cleary.
Waddell was a meh
Elliot the idiot people still praise him
Allen killed it at south’s
So it wasn’t bad to start with but yeah shit happened.
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Sorry bro but I called out both those frauds. We have seen it too many times now IE Crapa
 
wendog33

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TwinTurbo said:
The methodology was pretty simple, if you have say a $600k player ($1.8m for 3 years) then you "under pay" him $250k in the first year, pay him about the right amount in the 2nd year and them "over pay" him $250k in the 3rd year. The belief being that you can move him on at the end of the 2nd year and avoid paying the $850k in the 3rd year. Effectively you have had a $1.2m player ($600k x 2 years) and only had $850k in your Cap (for the 2 years combined). Do that with half of your regular 19 NRL players and you have $12m "worth" of players and still be under a $9m Cap.

The Cap is audited by year, they don't care about next year or the year after, only what is the Cap this year and what is the total value of contracts this year. If the total value of player contracts this year is under this year's Cap then all is well. Of course the NRL knew that if players weren't offloaded before next year then there would be Cap breach. But it wasn't against the NRL rules at that time to have back ended contracts, so no issue until the year it actually happens. It was actually going to happen to us in 2018, without drastic actions being taken we were going to be more than $3m over the Cap.

Looking back 2012 was the year that started the rot for Hasler, we were supposed to win the premiership that year and offload the back ended contracted players in 2013. Then the repeat in 2014 was just the final nail in that coffin, same problem no one wanted to pay the inflated player contracts so we had to pay other teams to take them. In 2017 the true extent of the back ending was "discovered" by the Board and we all know what happened after that.

FWIW we didn't start this, Melbourne did similar from 2006 to 2010 where, as we all know, they had 2 contracts, one registered with the NRL and one of a higher value that the players were actually paid to. The NRL contract versions were the same value each year but the players' contract versions were actually back ended, a concept that Hasler used at Manly in 2010 and 2011 and then brought to us.


Always a Bulldog
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And you still say Des/Dib/Castle thought, or at least knew they had to allow the possibility, and contingency plan, that they would have to dump up to 10 x 600k- 800k players in 2017-2018 bc over the sc by 3 million?

Also you can't avoid paying the player his inflated amt in the 3rd year. Even Des would realise this along with the fact the players were not exactly at the beginning of theur careers and the chance of them holding their form and being sort by other teams would wane with every passing year.

2017 Board was Dib Board. That includes Turvey. He knew about these dicey back ended structured contracts? And in your scenario its really "gross" mismanagement and mishandling of the roster and sc taking a very cavalier approach on a wing and a prayer that players would move on when their big payday was still outstanding.

I dont give Des enough negotiation skills to think he could get that amount of players, and their agents, to back end contracts so heavily in their last year and therefore pay more tax (for a start).

And who the hell club would buy these players at 800k for Eastwood etc. How could it be signed off on by that footy board?

Even the barest of investigation by one of those Board members, into the figures, would have exposed it?

I dont know but I guess what I can accept is that it was undoubtedly done but not to the the same degree, or 3 million, that we have been lead to believe.

As I said, not looking for an argument with anybody or unwillinging to accept facts and figures but so far I cant see sufficient necessity or explanation for 4 years to get sc back under control and all but ruin the club in the process.

Anyway I'll leave it. I probably wouldn't believe anybody until I saw a thorough forensic finanical investigation into the whole saga going back the past 2 Boards :grinning:
 
BondiBulldog

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TwinTurbo said:
The methodology was pretty simple, if you have say a $600k player ($1.8m for 3 years) then you "under pay" him $250k in the first year, pay him about the right amount in the 2nd year and them "over pay" him $250k in the 3rd year. The belief being that you can move him on at the end of the 2nd year and avoid paying the $850k in the 3rd year. Effectively you have had a $1.2m player ($600k x 2 years) and only had $850k in your Cap (for the 2 years combined). Do that with half of your regular 19 NRL players and you have $12m "worth" of players and still be under a $9m Cap.

The Cap is audited by year, they don't care about next year or the year after, only what is the Cap this year and what is the total value of contracts this year. If the total value of player contracts this year is under this year's Cap then all is well. Of course the NRL knew that if players weren't offloaded before next year then there would be Cap breach. But it wasn't against the NRL rules at that time to have back ended contracts, so no issue until the year it actually happens. It was actually going to happen to us in 2018, without drastic actions being taken we were going to be more than $3m over the Cap.

Looking back 2012 was the year that started the rot for Hasler, we were supposed to win the premiership that year and offload the back ended contracted players in 2013. Then the repeat in 2014 was just the final nail in that coffin, same problem no one wanted to pay the inflated player contracts so we had to pay other teams to take them. In 2017 the true extent of the back ending was "discovered" by the Board and we all know what happened after that.

FWIW we didn't start this, Melbourne did similar from 2006 to 2010 where, as we all know, they had 2 contracts, one registered with the NRL and one of a higher value that the players were actually paid to. The NRL contract versions were the same value each year but the players' contract versions were actually back ended, a concept that Hasler used at Manly in 2010 and 2011 and then brought to us.


Always a Bulldog
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It’s a good summary by Twin Turbo but I guess what the majority of Bulldogs fans are bamboozled by is why pay them so much in the first place? I get the reference and understand the numbers but if we were to simplify things and take away the back ended contract and paid everyone per annum I still don’t think our roster was even top eight, if so certainty not top four.

I am if the belief that Hasler over achieved with the squad he had during his tenure and our star player (Ben Barba) would of been on peanuts. Our other most influential players Ennis/Graham surely could not have taken more than 600k per season.

Then we go into the predicted line up of season 2018 even if we didn’t move any players on (Mbye, Klemmer, Woods) it was still a trash team on paper.

So again the concern, disbelief and pain arise from to exactly why we were over paying ok players in the first place? As stated before we didn’t have ONE Australian spine player (haven’t in a long time) maybe only Klemmer the only Australian player and then a wide variety of OK first grade players made to look better by Hasler having them play as a team.

Using this year as an example (let’s draw comparisons to back then as I just can’t remember the other fifteen clubs player’s at the moment)

We had nothing like Storm, Roosters, Souths, Manly, Eels or even the Knights in terms of a Star studded line up. To me we kinda looked as strong as this year’s Dragons, if that- but Hasler had us playing a style of footy that could win us more games than we loss (as boring as it was)

I guess to summarise, most think we should of been able to afford a STRONGER roster that was cap complaint. Not an average team that was using loop holes and back ended contracts to play together.
 
EzyB

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ASSASSIN said:
Sorry bro but I called out both those frauds. We have seen it too many times now IE Crapa
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I understand but a lot of people thought Flanagan was the next big thing that’s why we bought him.
Can’t blame that on Barrett.
 
EzyB

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bulldogsmyte said:
Sorry dude but I never rated Flanno and butterfingers Elliot. Check my posts when the Dogs signed Flanno and I said the Chooks only released him because he was a dud. The best recruit this year by a country mile is the veteran Ava who's also the cheapest.
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I agree but as I said people thought Flanagan was the next big thing.
 
EzyB

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TwinTurbo said:
Your wrong, I didn't. Unless I'm not considered one of your "everyones"?

Pretty sure BeastMode didn't think that either, surely he is included in the "everyone"?

Always a Bulldog
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I’m not talking just about the kennel I’m talking about people in the know.
I never seen him play before we signed him so I didn’t know anything about him.
 
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