Russia vs Ukraine

Tassie Devil

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not true... plenty of countries have flooded Ukraine with weapons and ammunition to kill Russians... plenty of well intentioned and military trained Westerners have travelled to Ukraine to fight for Western freedom and democracy... plenty of Western analysts have paraded on Western news outlets confirming that Russia has a bad army ordered to do a stupid thing and have already suffered a strategic defeat... plenty of news outlets have accurately assessed Vladimir Putin as suffering a terminal illness and on the verge of death and once the tyrant is dead, everything will go back to normal... plenty of news outlets have accurately assessed Russia as on the verge of running out of fuel and ammunition and precision missiles etc. and hence, the war is nearly over and the Ukrainians on the verge of storming Moscow... Western nations have already sabotaged diplomatic efforts to resolve the conflict... Lithuania has ignored treaty obligations and blockaded the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad by land (that's going to end well)... clearly the world is on board as to the evil Russians that must be sanctioned -->



what more do you want?
Fuck the Russians
 

Tassie Devil

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not true... plenty of countries have flooded Ukraine with weapons and ammunition to kill Russians... plenty of well intentioned and military trained Westerners have travelled to Ukraine to fight for Western freedom and democracy... plenty of Western analysts have paraded on Western news outlets confirming that Russia has a bad army ordered to do a stupid thing and have already suffered a strategic defeat... plenty of news outlets have accurately assessed Vladimir Putin as suffering a terminal illness and on the verge of death and once the tyrant is dead, everything will go back to normal... plenty of news outlets have accurately assessed Russia as on the verge of running out of fuel and ammunition and precision missiles etc. and hence, the war is nearly over and the Ukrainians on the verge of storming Moscow... Western nations have already sabotaged diplomatic efforts to resolve the conflict... Lithuania has ignored treaty obligations and blockaded the Russian enclave of Kaliningrad by land (that's going to end well)... clearly the world is on board as to the evil Russians that must be sanctioned -->



what more do you want?
Tbh I want a better map. Hate the colours you've got there and no idea what they're supposed to mean.

As for the rest you said. Have no idea what you're on about tbh.

Wi close by saying FUCK THE RUSSIANS
 

south of heaven

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So I is walking around york ,this smoking blonde piece has come up, " excuse me can you take picture on my phone of me and my child" yeah no fucking worries love ,where you from I ask ," we just escape Ukraine it's not good" she ask if I'm Australian fucking oath love I am, the dirty wog side of me is thinking you could get this a meal and knock the back end out of it.....the little angel on my shoulder said you fucking piece of shit the poor chick is escaping a war and her hubby is probably been killed.
So I says sorry for what's happening to you hopefully you get back home soon and life can return to normal .
The angel won but I'm going back to my apartment now and jerking off like a demon on crack it's a fair trade
 

alchemist

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Tbh I want a better map. Hate the colours you've got there and no idea what they're supposed to mean.

As for the rest you said. Have no idea what you're on about tbh.

Wi close by saying FUCK THE RUSSIANS
the map indicates which countries have and have not sanctioned Russia as a result of the war... tells a story, yes? Russia the international pariah? really? the non-Western world want nothing to do with the sanctions and in fact, a lot of big countries like India and China have dramatically increased their trades with Russia... for example, India has bought a lot more Russian crude oil and I think it is pretty clear that although the EU has imposed sanctions on Russian oil imported by ship by the end of the year, they will still allow purchase of refined oil from India which means Russian oil with an Indian middleman and added shipping that simply adds to the price of oil for Europe... the Russians have estimated that the sanctions will add $400 billion to Europe's energy bills... you are in Europe, are you happy about that?

it also means that Russia is earning a lot more through trade because the sanctions have caused the price of their commodities to sky rocket and so, they are in a position to even sell less and yet earn more... it has gotten to the point that Janet Yellen proposed creating a buyer's cartel amongst the international community and cap the price paid for Russian oil and to which the Russians simply replied: "If we cannot profit off our oil, why would we bother selling it?"

even in probably the most fragile of Russian industries to sanctions, namely, aviation, China has let them know that they will cover them as to what is needed for parts, maintenance etc... and on the other side, Boeing and Airbus lose the Russian market and Western airlines now have to account for longer flight routes around Russia which will make them less competitive with other airlines

I will give you another by product of Western sanctions... the West kicked the majority of the Russian banks off of the SWIFT system which is an international payment system... but what does that mean for more poorer countries that are not sanctioning Russia and are dependent on Russian grain and fertilizer, for example, and now cannot pay for them? of course, the Europeans allowed Gazprombank to stay on SWIFT as Europe is reliant on Russian liquified natural gas... but we have seen, for example, the African Union lobby the EU and personally go to Moscow to work out a way to pay for these Russian products --> "The destabilization of Africa due to famine is as important as the outcome of the war in Ukraine today," the African leader warned. https://www.politico.eu/article/african-union-chief-urges-eu-to-ease-food-payments-to-russia/

and if there is famine in Africa, the West's response will simply be "F*#% the Russians!"

as for the rest of what I wrote, I will explain one issue being the West's sabotaging of peace negotiations between Ukraine and Russia... about a month into the conflict, Erdogan wanted to play peacemaker and arranged further peace negotiations in Istanbul... during those discussions, Ukraine proposed it accept neutrality and for a number of nations to act as guarantors and no foreign troops or bases would be allowed on Ukrainian territory without unanimous support of the guarantor nations which would include Russia... they also proposed a 15 year moratorium on the status of Crimea and the Donbass and to which the Russians stated that this represented progress and that they would take it back to Moscow... and then Boris Johnson flew to Ukraine (likely with the approval of the US) to meet with Zelensky and according to Ukrainian sources, gave Zelensky two messages --> Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with, and moreover even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not which in effect meant that the Ukrainians would be alone vs Russia if they stopped fighting --> https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/05/5/7344206/

no substantive peace negotiations have taken place since

the West will fight their proxy war against Russia to the last Ukrainian

whether it is malice or simply incompetence, the West have just buried Ukraine
 

Hacky McAxe

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the map indicates which countries have and have not sanctioned Russia as a result of the war... tells a story, yes? Russia the international pariah? really? the non-Western world want nothing to do with the sanctions and in fact, a lot of big countries like India and China have dramatically increased their trades with Russia... for example, India has bought a lot more Russian crude oil and I think it is pretty clear that although the EU has imposed sanctions on Russian oil imported by ship by the end of the year, they will still allow purchase of refined oil from India which means Russian oil with an Indian middleman and added shipping that simply adds to the price of oil for Europe... the Russians have estimated that the sanctions will add $400 billion to Europe's energy bills... you are in Europe, are you happy about that?

it also means that Russia is earning a lot more through trade because the sanctions have caused the price of their commodities to sky rocket and so, they are in a position to even sell less and yet earn more... it has gotten to the point that Janet Yellen proposed creating a buyer's cartel amongst the international community and cap the price paid for Russian oil and to which the Russians simply replied: "If we cannot profit off our oil, why would we bother selling it?"

even in probably the most fragile of Russian industries to sanctions, namely, aviation, China has let them know that they will cover them as to what is needed for parts, maintenance etc... and on the other side, Boeing and Airbus lose the Russian market and Western airlines now have to account for longer flight routes around Russia which will make them less competitive with other airlines

I will give you another by product of Western sanctions... the West kicked the majority of the Russian banks off of the SWIFT system which is an international payment system... but what does that mean for more poorer countries that are not sanctioning Russia and are dependent on Russian grain and fertilizer, for example, and now cannot pay for them? of course, the Europeans allowed Gazprombank to stay on SWIFT as Europe is reliant on Russian liquified natural gas... but we have seen, for example, the African Union lobby the EU and personally go to Moscow to work out a way to pay for these Russian products --> "The destabilization of Africa due to famine is as important as the outcome of the war in Ukraine today," the African leader warned. https://www.politico.eu/article/african-union-chief-urges-eu-to-ease-food-payments-to-russia/

and if there is famine in Africa, the West's response will simply be "F*#% the Russians!"

as for the rest of what I wrote, I will explain one issue being the West's sabotaging of peace negotiations between Ukraine and Russia... about a month into the conflict, Erdogan wanted to play peacemaker and arranged further peace negotiations in Istanbul... during those discussions, Ukraine proposed it accept neutrality and for a number of nations to act as guarantors and no foreign troops or bases would be allowed on Ukrainian territory without unanimous support of the guarantor nations which would include Russia... they also proposed a 15 year moratorium on the status of Crimea and the Donbass and to which the Russians stated that this represented progress and that they would take it back to Moscow... and then Boris Johnson flew to Ukraine (likely with the approval of the US) to meet with Zelensky and according to Ukrainian sources, gave Zelensky two messages --> Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with, and moreover even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not which in effect meant that the Ukrainians would be alone vs Russia if they stopped fighting --> https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/05/5/7344206/

no substantive peace negotiations have taken place since

the West will fight their proxy war against Russia to the last Ukrainian

whether it is malice or simply incompetence, the West have just buried Ukraine
I think you missed a couple of things including:

- The West didn't say, "F*#% the Russians!". They actually said that they will convene to work on the famine crisis in Africa. A crisis that is being exacerbated because Russia is blocking Ukrainian grain that is meant to go to Africa

- The source you linked stated that negotiations were likely stopped because of Johnson's unconfirmed comments AND " the revelation of the atrocities, rapes, murders, massacres, looting, indiscriminate bombings and hundreds and thousands of other war crimes committed by Russian troops in the temporarily occupied Ukrainian territories"

If Johnson said not to negotiate then that's terrible by him. But right now Zelensky is saying that he will happily hold peace talks if Russian troops withdraw. Russia is refusing to withdraw troops. And lets not forget that Russia invaded Ukraine

But keep pushing the proxy war Russian propaganda if you really believe it.
 

alchemist

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I think you missed a couple of things including:

- The West didn't say, "F*#% the Russians!". They actually said that they will convene to work on the famine crisis in Africa. A crisis that is being exacerbated because Russia is blocking Ukrainian grain that is meant to go to Africa

- The source you linked stated that negotiations were likely stopped because of Johnson's unconfirmed comments AND " the revelation of the atrocities, rapes, murders, massacres, looting, indiscriminate bombings and hundreds and thousands of other war crimes committed by Russian troops in the temporarily occupied Ukrainian territories"

If Johnson said not to negotiate then that's terrible by him. But right now Zelensky is saying that he will happily hold peace talks if Russian troops withdraw. Russia is refusing to withdraw troops. And lets not forget that Russia invaded Ukraine

But keep pushing the proxy war Russian propaganda if you really believe it.
let's work backwards... a number of prominent American politicians are saying that they are in a proxy war with Russia and there is plenty of evidence to indicate that they are (eg. NATO training and equipping the Ukrainian army since 2015, the tens of billions of dollars worth of weapons sent to Ukraine, US politicians stating that their intelligence helped Ukrainians target the Moskva and Russian generals in the field, they have spoken of regime change and need to assassinate Vladimir Putin, they are clearly in the process of an economic war of attrition with the goal of destroying the Russian economy etc.)... now I accept that is my interpretation of what I see happening and it is not necessarily correct but it is not unreasonable... and yet, you resorted to demonizing my point of view with this propaganda rubbish

as for Zelensky, he said that Ukraine is willing to restart peace negotiations but only if Russia withdraws completely from Ukraine including Crimea... in other words, Zelensky set a condition for talks he knew Russia will never agree to and hence, the war will just go on... which is the point --> everyone wants the war

so we accept a Ukrainian source as to the brutality of the war being waged by the Russians but not what they said Johnson's message was to Zelensky about not settling? an interesting contradiction, especially since the end result is the continuation of the brutality of said war by the Russians

with the "F*+# the Russians", I was actually quoting Tassie Devil but the broader point is that the West have an out by simply blaming everything on Russia and so they can be cavalier with the stability of Europe, the global economy, potential starvation in the global south etc.

as for the Russians blocking Ukrainian grain, do a search as to how much of it makes up the global supply and who mined the Ukrainian ports
 

Hacky McAxe

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let's work backwards... a number of prominent American politicians are saying that they are in a proxy war with Russia and there is plenty of evidence to indicate that they are (eg. NATO training and equipping the Ukrainian army since 2015, the tens of billions of dollars worth of weapons sent to Ukraine, US politicians stating that their intelligence helped Ukrainians target the Moskva and Russian generals in the field, they have spoken of regime change and need to assassinate Vladimir Putin, they are clearly in the process of an economic war of attrition with the goal of destroying the Russian economy etc.)... now I accept that is my interpretation of what I see happening and it is not necessarily correct but it is not unreasonable... and yet, you resorted to demonizing my point of view with this propaganda rubbish
Fair. I apologise for the overstating of propaganda but in my defence, you are pushing very pro-Russia invasion views.

I will accept that the US is likely pushing a proxy war at this stage. But not that the US intended or hoped that Russia would invade.

as for Zelensky, he said that Ukraine is willing to restart peace negotiations but only if Russia withdraws completely from Ukraine including Crimea... in other words, Zelensky set a condition for talks he knew Russia will never agree to and hence, the war will just go on... which is the point --> everyone wants the war
Do you have a source for that? All I could find was Zelensky saying that he wants "restoration of pre-invasion borders"

so we accept a Ukrainian source as to the brutality of the war being waged by the Russians but not what they said Johnson's message was to Zelensky about not settling? an interesting contradiction, especially since the end result is the continuation of the brutality of said war by the Russians
Nope. Both unconfirmed. And I think it's been established that much of it was over-exaggerated. But one is a news source saying that they have one anonymous source close to Zelensky, and the other is thousands of people reporting incidents.

with the "F*+# the Russians", I was actually quoting Tassie Devil but the broader point is that the West have an out by simply blaming everything on Russia and so they can be cavalier with the stability of Europe, the global economy, potential starvation in the global south etc.
But that's also overstated on your behalf. The world isn't entirely blaming Russia for everything, but are recognising that none of this would have happened if Russia didn't invade.

as for the Russians blocking Ukrainian grain, do a search as to how much of it makes up the global supply and who mined the Ukrainian ports
I did. Ukraine exports roughly half of what Russia exports. Together they make up around 70% of the grain in the global market. Also, I am aware that Ukraine mined their ports. But that's not stopping the export. It's the Russian blockade that's stopping the export.

Plus, satellite images have picked up Russia stealing Ukrainian grain and shipping it out, then selling it on to Syria.

So I have to ask, do you think it's fair that Russia invades Ukraine, stops Ukraine from selling grain, but also increases the amount Russia sells?
 

Tassie Devil

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the map indicates which countries have and have not sanctioned Russia as a result of the war... tells a story, yes? Russia the international pariah? really? the non-Western world want nothing to do with the sanctions and in fact, a lot of big countries like India and China have dramatically increased their trades with Russia... for example, India has bought a lot more Russian crude oil and I think it is pretty clear that although the EU has imposed sanctions on Russian oil imported by ship by the end of the year, they will still allow purchase of refined oil from India which means Russian oil with an Indian middleman and added shipping that simply adds to the price of oil for Europe... the Russians have estimated that the sanctions will add $400 billion to Europe's energy bills... you are in Europe, are you happy about that?

it also means that Russia is earning a lot more through trade because the sanctions have caused the price of their commodities to sky rocket and so, they are in a position to even sell less and yet earn more... it has gotten to the point that Janet Yellen proposed creating a buyer's cartel amongst the international community and cap the price paid for Russian oil and to which the Russians simply replied: "If we cannot profit off our oil, why would we bother selling it?"

even in probably the most fragile of Russian industries to sanctions, namely, aviation, China has let them know that they will cover them as to what is needed for parts, maintenance etc... and on the other side, Boeing and Airbus lose the Russian market and Western airlines now have to account for longer flight routes around Russia which will make them less competitive with other airlines

I will give you another by product of Western sanctions... the West kicked the majority of the Russian banks off of the SWIFT system which is an international payment system... but what does that mean for more poorer countries that are not sanctioning Russia and are dependent on Russian grain and fertilizer, for example, and now cannot pay for them? of course, the Europeans allowed Gazprombank to stay on SWIFT as Europe is reliant on Russian liquified natural gas... but we have seen, for example, the African Union lobby the EU and personally go to Moscow to work out a way to pay for these Russian products --> "The destabilization of Africa due to famine is as important as the outcome of the war in Ukraine today," the African leader warned. https://www.politico.eu/article/african-union-chief-urges-eu-to-ease-food-payments-to-russia/

and if there is famine in Africa, the West's response will simply be "F*#% the Russians!"

as for the rest of what I wrote, I will explain one issue being the West's sabotaging of peace negotiations between Ukraine and Russia... about a month into the conflict, Erdogan wanted to play peacemaker and arranged further peace negotiations in Istanbul... during those discussions, Ukraine proposed it accept neutrality and for a number of nations to act as guarantors and no foreign troops or bases would be allowed on Ukrainian territory without unanimous support of the guarantor nations which would include Russia... they also proposed a 15 year moratorium on the status of Crimea and the Donbass and to which the Russians stated that this represented progress and that they would take it back to Moscow... and then Boris Johnson flew to Ukraine (likely with the approval of the US) to meet with Zelensky and according to Ukrainian sources, gave Zelensky two messages --> Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with, and moreover even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not which in effect meant that the Ukrainians would be alone vs Russia if they stopped fighting --> https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/05/5/7344206/

no substantive peace negotiations have taken place since

the West will fight their proxy war against Russia to the last Ukrainian

whether it is malice or simply incompetence, the West have just buried Ukraine
Don't agree that the West have buried Ukraine at all, and I actually have the opinion that Ukraine won this war some time ago.

How can there be any peace talks when Russia is still continuing its invasion of Ukraine?

There won't be any peace talks until Russia's army can go no further. Anyone who thinks any differently is grossly mistaken. So the only way for peace is to stop Russia's advance and push them back which means Ukraine needs weapons.

As for the commonly presented idea that Ukraine gives up territory for peace. Why would they?

Get you love all things Russian, but honestly stopped taking your views too seriously on this before the war even began when you talked down to all and sundry who thought Russia were going to invade Ukraine claiming there was absolutely no way it'd happen. Two days later ... it happened.

We all have biases but your bias towards Russia clouds what you say too much imo.
 

Tassie Devil

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Fair. I apologise for the overstating of propaganda but in my defence, you are pushing very pro-Russia invasion views.

I will accept that the US is likely pushing a proxy war at this stage. But not that the US intended or hoped that Russia would invade.



Do you have a source for that? All I could find was Zelensky saying that he wants "restoration of pre-invasion borders"



Nope. Both unconfirmed. And I think it's been established that much of it was over-exaggerated. But one is a news source saying that they have one anonymous source close to Zelensky, and the other is thousands of people reporting incidents.



But that's also overstated on your behalf. The world isn't entirely blaming Russia for everything, but are recognising that none of this would have happened if Russia didn't invade.



I did. Ukraine exports roughly half of what Russia exports. Together they make up around 70% of the grain in the global market. Also, I am aware that Ukraine mined their ports. But that's not stopping the export. It's the Russian blockade that's stopping the export.

Plus, satellite images have picked up Russia stealing Ukrainian grain and shipping it out, then selling it on to Syria.

So I have to ask, do you think it's fair that Russia invades Ukraine, stops Ukraine from selling grain, but also increases the amount Russia sells?
Any man and his dog can see there isn't a clear 'good vs evil' here. Of course it's cloudy with all sides having their own intentions and desires, just like with anything and everything in this world.

However, all one has to do is watch some Russian state TV on this matter to see how crazy Russia is going with this. Talk of using nuclear weapons to cleanse Ukraine and the West knowing that their population would also perish, but being happy to do that believing they're acting in God's name.

Has anyone heard anyone from the West talking like this?
 

D0GMATIC

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As usually, the reality is more complex than the mainstream media would have you believe and it's not as simple as "Putin bad"

 

Tassie Devil

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As usually, the reality is more complex than the mainstream media would have you believe and it's not as simple as "Putin bad"

It is. Putin = bad. It's just that we can state everyone involved as the same, but clearly "Putin bad" equals the truth imo
 

D0GMATIC

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It is. Putin = bad. It's just that we can state everyone involved as the same, but clearly "Putin bad" equals the truth imo
Agree, He is. What he is doing is reprehensible, But if you keep provoking and give people of his nature a reason to be as bad as they can be,they generally will be. And as a consequence his popularity is growing. Trying to sabotage the Russian economy, isn't effecting him, its effecting the general population,which is just making them happy that he is fighting back. Im not trying to justify his actions, but years of agitating has helped to create this conflict
 

Hacky McAxe

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As usually, the reality is more complex than the mainstream media would have you believe and it's not as simple as "Putin bad"

It's definitely more nuanced than "Putin bad". He's not doing this just 'cause he's evil. I think everyone understands his main driver (standing against NATO)

But it amazes me how far Brand has gone down the conspiracy rabbit hole. He's basically just using left leaning sources, and the changing what they're actually saying to make it sound like this was all a conspiracy driven by the US far right.
 
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