Religious Discussion Thread

Hacky McAxe

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What do you mean by know? You looking for scientific proof?
There are lots of things we know for a fact to be true that cannot be proven by science.
It's technically belief. You can say, "I know God is true", and more power to you. But that's a belief. You can believe it to be true and I can believe it to not be true. That doesn't make me less truthful than you. Just different beliefs.

I would say that there are things that we believe to be true that have no yet been proven, or possibly can't be proven, but that doesn't make them objectively true.
 

Northern Beaches dog

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If you mean the human species. Correct.

Does that mean life is pointless or have no meaning? No. Far from it.

Does that mean i think its ok for ISIS to come rape my wife? No. Thats not based on Gods morality. Thats based on my subjective belief that she is entitled to live her short life without that fear. ISIS might think they are right and their God ordained it and its situational ok. Thats their opinion.
But if ISIS came and raped your wife, they have not done anything wrong if God does not exist.
Again, you may not like it, but that is no different to me not liking red nail polish on woman.
I mean, thats all it is, just a subjective preference.
But it aint wrong.
Is that your view?
 

Northern Beaches dog

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It's technically belief. You can say, "I know God is true", and more power to you. But that's a belief. You can believe it to be true and I can believe it to not be true. That doesn't make me less truthful than you. Just different beliefs.

I would say that there are things that we believe to be true that have no yet been proven, or possibly can't be proven, but that doesn't make them objectively true.
Well, we cannot scientifically prove the existence of the external world, yet we believe it to be the most true thing.
 

The DoggFather

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Well, we cannot scientifically prove the existence of the external world, yet we believe it to be the most true thing.
I've learnt not to get too deep into the discussion, but don't forget God gives us till our last breath to believe. People have change of heart all the time.

One of my favourite parts of our faith.
 

Hacky McAxe

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Well, we cannot scientifically prove the existence of the external world, yet we believe it to be the most true thing.
True. But not because we definitively know it to be true. We don't. We believe it to be true because our senses detect the external world and if we refuse to accept it to be true then we lapse into solipsistic nihilism and we fail to progress in life.
 

Dogna88

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But if ISIS came and raped your wife, they have not done anything wrong if God does not exist.
Again, you may not like it, but that is no different to me not liking red nail polish on woman.
I mean, thats all it is, just a subjective preference.
But it aint wrong.
Is that your view?
That does not prove a God exisits because an OMV exisit though.

Something can still be objectively wrong without the need of a God or diety. I explained by position earlier in relation to this.

Sam Harris wrote a good book 'The Moral Landscape" in which he explains hoe science yields an objective morality
 

Northern Beaches dog

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True. But not because we definitively know it to be true. We don't. We believe it to be true because our senses detect the external world and if we refuse to accept it to be true then we lapse into solipsistic nihilism and we fail to progress in life.
Here is an answer and summary to this
"

In moral experience, we apprehend a realm of moral values and duties that impose themselves upon us. There's no more reason to deny the objective reality of moral values than the objective reality of the physical world. Just as, in the absence of some defeater, we are rational to trust the deliverances of our senses that there really is a world of physical objects out there, so in the absence of some defeater we are rational to trust the deliverances of our moral apprehensions.

And there is no such defeater. The reasoning of Michael Ruse at best proves only that our subjective perception of objective moral values has evolved. But if moral values are gradually discovered, not invented, then our gradual and fallible apprehension of the moral realm no more undermines the objective reality of that realm than our gradual, fallible perception of the physical world undermines the objectivity of that realm. As philosopher Louise Anthony so nicely puts it, any argument for moral scepticism is going to be based on premises which are less obvious than the reality of objective moral values themselves."
 

Northern Beaches dog

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That does not prove a God exisits because an OMV exisit though.

Something can still be objectively wrong without the need of a God or diety. I explained by position earlier in relation to this.

Sam Harris wrote a good book 'The Moral Landscape" in which he explains hoe science yields an objective morality
I have read that
He essentially substitutes moral good with flourishing.
He has it wrong.
Under naturalism, if humans flourish or not, it is neither right or wrong.
He just presumes flourishing is good.
 

Dogna88

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I have read that
He essentially substitutes moral good with flourishing.
He has it wrong.
Under naturalism, if humans flourish or not, it is neither right or wrong.
He just presumes flourishing is good.
You should see Alex O'Connors rebuttal. Which i share similar beliefs in relation to morality.

Sam Harris argues that if we accept one principle, that conscious beings ought not to suffer, that we can measure morality objectively, in theory if not in actual practice.

I need to go to bed. Sorry for the cut off. We'll continue tomorrow. Been refreshing having a decent conversation
 

Northern Beaches dog

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You should see Alex O'Connors rebuttal. Which i share similar beliefs in relation to morality.

Sam Harris argues that if we accept one principle, that conscious beings ought not to suffer, that we can measure morality objectively, in theory if not in actual practice.

I need to go to bed. Sorry for the cut off. We'll continue tomorrow. Been refreshing having a decent conversation
But that is no different to this.
Consider a crop of corn.
For a crop of corn to flourish, it needs ample water and sunlight.
Is it a fact that crops of corn ought to flourish?
Under naturalism, the answer is NO.
The same with humans. Under naturalism, it is not a fact that humans ought to survive and flourish.
No worries.
Good night
 

The DoggFather

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Props to all involved for keeping it civil and respectful.

Pretty rare round these parts...
 

Hacky McAxe

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Here is an answer and summary to this
"

In moral experience, we apprehend a realm of moral values and duties that impose themselves upon us. There's no more reason to deny the objective reality of moral values than the objective reality of the physical world. Just as, in the absence of some defeater, we are rational to trust the deliverances of our senses that there really is a world of physical objects out there, so in the absence of some defeater we are rational to trust the deliverances of our moral apprehensions.

And there is no such defeater. The reasoning of Michael Ruse at best proves only that our subjective perception of objective moral values has evolved. But if moral values are gradually discovered, not invented, then our gradual and fallible apprehension of the moral realm no more undermines the objective reality of that realm than our gradual, fallible perception of the physical world undermines the objectivity of that realm. As philosopher Louise Anthony so nicely puts it, any argument for moral scepticism is going to be based on premises which are less obvious than the reality of objective moral values themselves."
Craig's explanation of why God must exist due to objective morality. One thing Craig ignores is that tribes with no influence from God have their own morality. Some which matches the morality of God, and some that does not. But it's still moral values developed by the society.

We can look at the values of this society and say that some are morally evil and some are morally good, but that's from our perspective. A perspective shaped by society.

Just look at our history. It was considered morally good to drill into a person's skull to release the pressure on their brain. It was considered morally good to lobotomise or use shock therapy on a mentally ill person. It was considered morally good to drain the blood of woman to stop them from going crazy.

All these things are now considered to be morally bad from our perspective. But in the time they were used, they were considered morally good and we're not considered to be going against God.
 

Hacky McAxe

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We can take it one step further. Craig often states that God is morally good, therefore anything God does is morally good. But God commands humans not to kill, but also kills many himself. So is God being morally bad or is killing morally good?

This is the problem with Objective Morality from God. Morality is rarely ever black and white.
 

Northern Beaches dog

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Craig's explanation of why God must exist due to objective morality. One thing Craig ignores is that tribes with no influence from God have their own morality. Some which matches the morality of God, and some that does not. But it's still moral values developed by the society.

We can look at the values of this society and say that some are morally evil and some are morally good, but that's from our perspective. A perspective shaped by society.

Just look at our history. It was considered morally good to drill into a person's skull to release the pressure on their brain. It was considered morally good to lobotomise or use shock therapy on a mentally ill person. It was considered morally good to drain the blood of woman to stop them from going crazy.

All these things are now considered to be morally bad from our perspective. But in the time they were used, they were considered morally good and we're not considered to be going against God.
The moral argument is about ontology. The question of how we know is about epistemology.
In saying that, the bible does state that that Gods laws are written in our hearts.

The thing is though, if there is no OM, then there moral such thing as moral improvement.
What the Nazis did is no better or worse than what Mother Theresa did if there is no OM.

CS Lewis said it best " “My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?”
 

Northern Beaches dog

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We can take it one step further. Craig often states that God is morally good, therefore anything God does is morally good. But God commands humans not to kill, but also kills many himself. So is God being morally bad or is killing morally good?

This is the problem with Objective Morality from God. Morality is rarely ever black and white.
God does not kill.
God casts judgement on his own creation. As the AUTHOR of life, he has every right to cast judgement.
Can anyone tell the author of a book who should survive or not in there novel?
In saying that, if Christianity is true, the people do not actually die, they just change locations.
Remember God is love AND JUST.
People want to only believe the former
 
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