Religious Discussion Thread

[Northern Beaches dog]

Yes but then i go back to ny discussion re the reference point of OM.

If i admit OM. It does not prove the existence of a God.

I dont see how it does not.
Lets look at another example.
It is an objective fact that the earth rotates around the sun. Do you agree?
It has no bearing at all what humans think. If humans all thought the sun rotates around the earth, then all humans are wrong.
This objective fact does not prove God because in this example, i am describing something DESCRIPTIVE.
It is a description that the earth rotates around the sun.

With morality, its very NATURE is PRESCRIPTIVE.

It is a message.

The question for the non believer is, what on earth are messages doing existing in the universe?

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

That's reductive though. I once heard someone say it perfectly. The only one who could possibly know God exists is God. Because the rest of us don't have the entire knowledge of our universe.

If OM exists then must it be God? No. It could be, but the only way that you can say that it's certainly God is if you know every single thing that exists in our Universe.

What do you mean by know? You looking for scientific proof?
There are lots of things we know for a fact to be true that cannot be proven by science.

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

That is... "I dont know, therefore God"

It is not God of the gaps argument.
If God does not exist, then who are you or anyone to tell ISIS what they do is wrong?
If they ask you why they are wrong, what are you going to tell them?

 

[Doogie]

All i am saying is, if there is OM, then the ONLY foundation for it is a God.
You cannot have OM without God.

What a stupid argument on a range of levels.

1) what we call objective morals is a legacy from the creation of collaboration as society developed. Sort of hard to ask your neighbour for a fave when you raped their wife and ate the kids.
2) OM is by definition universal. U provided a number of examples that show its not universal. So there is no objective morality. Humans have free thought.

Just because a book codified some simple rules of society - doesn't mean that whoever wrote the book is some form of higher life form. And definitely doesn't mean that if you stuff to the book later on its as logical.

 

[Dogna88]

I dont see how it does not.
Lets look at another example.
It is an objective fact that the earth rotates around the sun. Do you agree?
It has no bearing at all what humans think. If humans all thought the sun rotates around the earth, then all humans are wrong.
This objective fact does not prove God because in this example, i am describing something DESCRIPTIVE.
It is a description that the earth rotates around the sun.

With morality, its very NATURE is PRESCRIPTIVE.

It is a message.

The question for the non believer is, what on earth are messages doing existing in the universe?

The earth revolving around the sun is observable and measurable.


All humans are human. What rights and dignities do humans deserve?

It is a simple process of logic. Whatever any human deserves because of their humanity, all humans deserve that. You do not need to believe in any God to believe that all humans have equal rights and dignity.

We are sentient beings. Our basic instinct is to survive (and biologists would argue to breed). We have evolved to realise that the most effective way to do this is to treat other people how you want (or your kids) to be treated.

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

What a stupid argument on a range of levels.

1) what we call objective morals is a legacy from the creation of collaboration as society developed. Sort of hard to ask your neighbour for a fave when you raped their wife and ate the kids.
2) OM is by definition universal. U provided a number of examples that show its not universal. So there is no objective morality. Humans have free thought.

Just because a book codified some simple rules of society - doesn't mean that whoever wrote the book is some form of higher life form. And definitely doesn't mean that if you stuff to the book later on its as logical.

If there is no OM then effectively we are in no position to tell the Nazis that what they did was wrong.
You may not like what they did, but that does not make it wrong.
Is that your view?

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

The earth revolving around the sun is observable and measurable.


All humans are human. What rights and dignities do humans deserve?

It is a simple process of logic. Whatever any human deserves because of their humanity, all humans deserve that. You do not need to believe in any God to believe that all humans have equal rights and dignity.

If God does exist, then humans deserve nothing.
Human rights are nothing more than a man made concept.
It has no grounding in reality.

 

[Doogie]

If there is no OM then effectively we are in no position to tell the Nazis that what they did was wrong.
You may not like what they did, but that does not make it wrong.
Is that your view?

Nice try. I'll bite. Which part of what the Nazi's did was wrong? They did a lot of things.

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

Nice try. I'll bite. Which part of what the Nazi's did was wrong? They did a lot of things.

Putting 6 million woman, children in gas torture chambers?
Is that wrong or it is something you just dont like, maybe like a drink you dont like?

 

[Dogna88]

If God does exist, then humans deserve nothing.
Human rights are nothing more than a man made concept.
It has no grounding in reality.

And IF he doesn't exist?

 

[Doogie]

Putting 6 million woman, children in gas torture chambers?
Is that wrong or it is something you just dont like, maybe like a drink you dont like?

That was wrong. Because an article of warfare the British adhered to suggested fair treatment of prisoners. And our world view leverages off the British. But as the Nazis didn't think it was wrong, this shows there are no objective morals.

Plus I believe the christian churches in Germany at the time were supportive of the Nazi party.

Got anything else?

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

And IF he doesn't exist?

Sorry, my bad i meant if does not exist lol

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

That was wrong. Because an article of warfare the British adhered to suggested fair treatment of prisoners. And our world view leverages off the British. But as the Nazis didn't think it was wrong, this shows there are no objective morals.

Plus I believe the christian churches in Germany at the time were supportive of the Nazi party.

Got anything else?

LOL how can it be wrong if there is no OM?
The Nazis said it was right, you said it was wrong, who is ULTIMATELY right or wrong?
Who decides?

 

[Dogna88]

Sorry, my bad i meant if does not exist lol

Lol all good.

So why dont we deserve anything if God does not exist?

 

[Doogie]

LOL how can it be wrong if there is no OM?
The Nazis said it was right, you said it was wrong, who is ULTIMATELY right or wrong?
Who decides?

Whomever has the biggest guns.

Next.

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

Lol all good.

So why dont we deserve anything if God does not exist?

Objectively we do not.
I mean, the universe in this case was not designed for us to flourish.
Whether humans survive and flourish or suffer and perish is neither right or wrong, good or evil.

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

Whomever has the biggest guns.

Next.

So if the Nazis had bigger guns they were then right to gas woman and children?

 

[Doogie]

So if the Nazis had bigger guns they were then right to gas woman and children?

If they won and maintained power for 100's of years, history rewrites itself. Acts like that become the norm. People living in that time would not see anything wrong with it. Would that prove the presence of god then? Or do u think that it could never happen because of God?

 

[Dogna88]

Objectively we do not.
I mean, the universe in this case was not designed for us to flourish.
Whether humans survive and flourish or suffer and perish is neither right or wrong, good or evil.

If you mean the human species. Correct.

Does that mean life is pointless or have no meaning? No. Far from it.

Does that mean i think its ok for ISIS to come rape my wife? No. Thats not based on Gods morality. Thats based on my subjective belief that she is entitled to live her short life without that fear. ISIS might think they are right and their God ordained it and its situational ok. Thats their opinion.

 

[Northern Beaches dog]

If they won and maintained power for 100's of years, history rewrites itself. Acts like that become the norm. People living in that time would not see anything wrong with it. Would that prove the presence of god then? Or do u think that it could never happen because of God?

So if they wont killing Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies etc is not wrong?????????