Question about "youth program" size.

[Psycho Doggie]

Interested in getting some discussion around this from those more in the know. My question is really in two parts, the second part is what I'm really getting at, but is not able to be answered without having an answer to the first question.

1. What is the best way to define "youth program" in a way that can be applied to determine the actual size (numbers) of youth programs in most NRL clubs? Obviously if we just define it as the total size of squads for HMs, SG, and JF, then we are going to get the same numbers for most clubs, whether they run their own junior teams or have an arrangement with Jets or Bears or someone. But some clubs are known for the junior development (Panthers at the moment), which presumably means they have large youth programs, incorporating more time spent working with more youngsters. Is there a way to define a youth program, and from there to work out a size for each clubs youth program?

2. Assuming a definition can be arrived at, what is the youth program size for every club in the NRL? Where do we sit in that list?

 

[Alan79]

Interested in getting some discussion around this from those more in the know. My question is really in two parts, the second part is what I'm really getting at, but is not able to be answered without having an answer to the first question.

1. What is the best way to define "youth program" in a way that can be applied to determine the actual size (numbers) of youth programs in most NRL clubs? Obviously if we just define it as the total size of squads for HMs, SG, and JF, then we are going to get the same numbers for most clubs, whether they run their own junior teams or have an arrangement with Jets or Bears or someone. But some clubs are known for the junior development (Panthers at the moment), which presumably means they have large youth programs, incorporating more time spent working with more youngsters. Is there a way to define a youth program, and from there to work out a size for each clubs youth program?

2. Assuming a definition can be arrived at, what is the youth program size for every club in the NRL? Where do we sit in that list?

I couldn't answer with any clarity. But I suspect that the success of the Panthers junior program comes down to having a large, league crazy nursery area and employing good scouts to take advantage of it. Similarly the Broncos are able to draw from a big talent pool. I think a lot of inner city areas these days have a big spread of dedication to different sports outside of league. And added to that, many are close neighbours competing for juniors in smaller geographical areas. I suspect that in the past we bolstered our junior ranks a lot by scouting far afield. Guys like Price, Dymock and Norton were Queenslanders. We picked up plenty of talent from NZ too. So certain clubs have a big advantage in their location while others really need to bolster their ranks by scouting outside their local area. I doubt we rank high on terms of the number of junior clubs in our area. So moving forward I hope that our new country areas affiliation bears fruit.

 

[Psycho Doggie]

I couldn't answer with any clarity. But I suspect that the success of the Panthers junior program comes down to having a large, league crazy nursery area and employing good scouts to take advantage of it. Similarly the Broncos are able to draw from a big talent pool. I think a lot of inner city areas these days have a big spread of dedication to different sports outside of league. And added to that, many are close neighbours competing for juniors in smaller geographical areas. I suspect that in the past we bolstered our junior ranks a lot by scouting far afield. Guys like Price, Dymock and Norton were Queenslanders. We picked up plenty of talent from NZ too. So certain clubs have a big advantage in their location while others really need to bolster their ranks by scouting outside their local area. I doubt we rank high on terms of the number of junior clubs in our area. So moving forward I hope that our new country areas affiliation bears fruit.

Catchment in an important factor. I'm wondering though if a way around that is to have a well funded large youth program. They are expensive of course, because in terms of responsible management of youth players you are spending time and money helping ensure they build careers outside of RL, because most of them won't end up making it.

If you consider the summer squads recently announced. HMs is 80, SG is 64, so that's 144 kids doing a bit of training and stuff over the summer. Those are going to get cut to 28 or 30 for the actual season. What is happening with the kids that get cut? How much mentoring or training does the club provide through a dedicated youth program? Do other clubs do more with these kids? Some kids at HM and even SG age have ability but get outshone because they are up against kids who've developed physically sooner. What is in place to give the late bloomers 2nd/3rd chances?

Penriff are doing as well as they are because although they have a young team, many of them have been playing next to each other for years. Our program seems to be more about identifying individuals worth developing, rather than trying to develop whole teams. That to me says that youth programs are different club to club. We have in the past been able to recruit kids from far afield and bring them in when they are 15 or even younger, which helps overcome catchment issues, but what are we really doing at the moment in terms of our youth program?

 

[Alan79]

Catchment in an important factor. I'm wondering though if a way around that is to have a well funded large youth program. They are expensive of course, because in terms of responsible management of youth players you are spending time and money helping ensure they build careers outside of RL, because most of them won't end up making it.

If you consider the summer squads recently announced. HMs is 80, SG is 64, so that's 144 kids doing a bit of training and stuff over the summer. Those are going to get cut to 28 or 30 for the actual season. What is happening with the kids that get cut? How much mentoring or training does the club provide through a dedicated youth program? Do other clubs do more with these kids? Some kids at HM and even SG age have ability but get outshone because they are up against kids who've developed physically sooner. What is in place to give the late bloomers 2nd/3rd chances?

Penriff are doing as well as they are because although they have a young team, many of them have been playing next to each other for years. Our program seems to be more about identifying individuals worth developing, rather than trying to develop whole teams. That to me says that youth programs are different club to club. We have in the past been able to recruit kids from far afield and bring them in when they are 15 or even younger, which helps overcome catchment issues, but what are we really doing at the moment in terms of our youth program?

The NRL itself dropped the ball with things when they tried to make the NYC the primary area that players are drawn from. As you say, late bloomers can slip through the cracks. We're largely seeing physical dominance as the primary factor in determining whether a player gets a contract. Even going back to the stories that Barba trialled with a number of clubs and was rejected for being on the small side is telling a story. And the fact that the NRL has said that teams are supposed to limit their spending on staff could further detract from the ability to keep working with youth that might just take an extra few years to get up to standard physically.

It's an interesting question in regards to what we do to help those who don't make it forge careers outside of league. If we were able to offer some kind of large scale apprenticeships programs alongside of things it might improve the number of kids wanting to play for our feeder teams. But that's likely to be a difficult and expensive thing to do

 

[Psycho Doggie]

The NRL itself dropped the ball with things when they tried to make the NYC the primary area that players are drawn from. As you say, late bloomers can slip through the cracks. We're largely seeing physical dominance as the primary factor in determining whether a player gets a contract. Even going back to the stories that Barba trialled with a number of clubs and was rejected for being on the small side is telling a story. And the fact that the NRL has said that teams are supposed to limit their spending on staff could further detract from the ability to keep working with youth that might just take an extra few years to get up to standard physically.

It's an interesting question in regards to what we do to help those who don't make it forge careers outside of league. If we were able to offer some kind of large scale apprenticeships programs alongside of things it might improve the number of kids wanting to play for our feeder teams. But that's likely to be a difficult and expensive thing to do

This is part of what has got me wondering about this. Most clubs are looking for ways to reduce spending right now, as is the NRL. We used to be in a position where players we'd spent years developing went elsewhere because they couldn't force their way into firsts. It kinda sucks, but which position would we rather be in right now, ours or Pantsers? They are going to lose some kids that have been with them for years, but so much better being in that position that where we are right now.

So maybe now is the time to actually be looking for ways to expand the youth program, see if Laundy means what he says about being involved with developing young players, see who else can be brought on board to help out. Might be able to get a jump on other clubs who cut their youth programs.

 

[Alan79]

This is part of what has got me wondering about this. Most clubs are looking for ways to reduce spending right now, as is the NRL. We used to be in a position where players we'd spent years developing went elsewhere because they couldn't force their way into firsts. It kinda sucks, but which position would we rather be in right now, ours or Pantsers? They are going to lose some kids that have been with them for years, but so much better being in that position that where we are right now.

So maybe now is the time to actually be looking for ways to expand the youth program, see if Laundy means what he says about being involved with developing young players, see who else can be brought on board to help out. Might be able to get a jump on other clubs who cut their youth programs.

Lets hope the board think this way. From what I recall, the country area partnership is aimed to allow kids to get through school before moving into the senior systems in Sydney. Part of that is simply attempting to develop the coaching staff of these areas alongside of running coaching clinics with the players. I'd assume that this has gone on hold with Covid 19 issues this year.

But expense issues are apparently why Greenberg scaled back on youth development with us for exactly the reason you mentioned (losing players we've developed to other clubs). I guess that it's not going to be apparent to outsiders what we're doing to improve the juniors system. But if what John Khoury says has some truth, he seems open to establishing good lines of communication to fans. Have you thought about emailing him and enquiring?

 

[CroydonDog]

Penriff seem to be having success with their association with the Central West. It dies help that these areas are adjacent to the Panthers traditional territory but there would be other parts of Australia North of the Barassi line that we could be hooking up with. Canberra don't Automatically have the Riverina to themselves, for example.