Pay Admits Time Running Out

[SweetFA]

Flanno had the ability to attract genuine first grade players to his club. He also knew where his team was weak and strengthened it by purchasing specialised players to play in those weak positions.

From what i have seen with Dean Pay, he hasn't got the nous to attract quality players to our club....

It’s not just Pay at fault. Right now our Club’s entity is at the bottom of the birdcage. Pay’s coaching staff simply aren’t at NRL level. Our Football Manager clearly doesn’t have the respect of the playing group given the goings on in Port Macquarie. Our recruitment team are inept as they consistently fail to land quality NRL talent (Thompson is unproven at NRL level). Not only does the Club struggle to obtain new sponsorship it continues to have sponsors scale back & walk away. The Football Club Board knows change is inevitable & progress is not an option.

 

[speedy2460]

From what i have seen with Dean Pay, he hasn't got the nous to attract quality players to our club....

He has the nous, thats for sure. He just doesnt have the money. Good players will not come here on poor money.
I cant understand how people cannot see that.

 

[B-Train]

He has the nous, thats for sure. He just doesnt have the money. Good players will not come here on poor money.
I cant understand how people cannot see that.

Money helps for sure but it's not the only factor. We had over a million to spend for 2020 which was confirmed by Hill when they were chasing Api, Ese Ese and Ramien at the same time. Who did we end up signing instead? Katoa, Stimson and Britt?

Obviously there hasn't been a tonne of cap space til 2021 but take into account that Api joined Penrith to play under an assistant coach in Barrett. If Pay had the nous, lure and appeal that you say he has, then why couldn't they seal the Api signing?

Giving Pay an extension to spend the cap space we've all waited five plus years to have would just mean more high profile players will look to sign elsewhere as it will be hard to sell the club with an unproven coach with a defensive gameplan. Players won't see scoring 13.6 points a game and finishing 12th every season as an "achievement" the same way many on here do.

 

[DinkumDog]

Money helps for sure but it's not the only factor. We had over a million to spend for 2020 which was confirmed by Hill when they were chasing Api, Ese Ese and Ramien at the same time. Who did we end up signing instead? Katoa, Stimson and Britt?

Obviously there hasn't been a tonne of cap space til 2021 but take into account that Api joined Penrith to play under an assistant coach in Barrett. If Pay had the nous, lure and appeal that you say he has, then why couldn't they seal the Api signing?

Giving Pay an extension to spend the cap space we've all waited five plus years to have would just mean more high profile players will look to sign elsewhere as it will be hard to sell the club with an unproven coach with a defensive gameplan. Players won't see scoring 13.6 points a game and finishing 12th every season as an "achievement" the same way many on here do.

The same could be said of 2008 when we got the spoon yet in 2009 we landed Ennis, Hannant, J-Moz and Stagg under an untested coach.

Apart from the Barrett relationship Api also got offered $100k extra by Penrif and we sensibly didn’t enter a bidding war when we couldn’t afford it.

Clearly changes are required but money will play a very substantial role for 2021 just like it did in 2009. I’m waiting until after 30 June when other clubs can’t move players on this year if they announce they’re going elsewhere for 2021.

The other issue will potentially be the revised comp structure and whether the Rona will have had knock on effects for the rest of 2020 and leading into 2021.

 

[B-Train]

The same could be said of 2008 when we got the spoon yet in 2009 we landed Ennis, Hannant, J-Moz and Stagg under an untested coach.

Apart from the Barrett relationship Api also got offered $100k extra by Penrif and we sensibly didn’t enter a bidding war when we couldn’t afford it.

Clearly changes are required but money will play a very substantial role for 2021 just like it did in 2009. I’m waiting until after 30 June when other clubs can’t move players on this year if they announce they’re going elsewhere for 2021.

The other issue will potentially be the revised comp structure and whether the Rona will have had knock on effects for the rest of 2020 and leading into 2021.

And that was a great recruiting class. The difference then was, Moore didn't have three seasons of poor results and substandard attack as the coach before recruiting those players.

If Pay was a first year coach without such a record and was given all that cap space like Moore had, then the club would have a better chance of convincing players to join the instant rebuild like we had in 2008.

Unfortunately, since we'll have three years of data and results to show free agents what kind of coach Pay is, I can't see that helping in recruitment.

 

[Scorpio]

He has the nous, thats for sure. He just doesnt have the money. Good players will not come here on poor money.
I cant understand how people cannot see that.

I can see that. Then we should pay them a bit extra.
2020 is supposed to be the final year of all our Salary cap dramas. Let us see who we attract.
Clearly our club has lost the ability to develop average players bought to our club into gun first graders like that did years ago.. eg: Luke Pattern

 

[DinkumDog]

And that was a great recruiting class. The difference then was, Moore didn't have three seasons of poor results and substandard attack as the coach before recruiting those players.

If Pay was a first year coach without such a record and was given all that cap space like Moore had, then the club would have a better chance of convincing players to join the instant rebuild like we had in 2008.

Unfortunately, since we'll have three years of data and results to show free agents what kind of coach Pay is, I can't see that helping in recruitment.

2 seasons and 2 games, not 3 seasons.
It might depend on the story being sold as well. Poor results aren’t exclusively reflective on the coaching (though do play a part). No-one can deny we’ve had a very young and largely inexperienced squad. I’m sure the club would be well aware of what the issues are if players and/or their managers are saying they ‘don’t want to sign with you because of the coach’.

I just don’t think Api, Ramien and Herman are good measures. Api we know the story, Ramien always wanted to go back to the Sharts and so what if he had a meeting looking for money or a Plan B. Maybe we decided we didn’t want him because it was obvious he wasn’t coming for the right reasons. Herman don’t know but equally don’t care - no major loss.

 

[B-Train]

2 seasons and 2 games, not 3 seasons.
It might depend on the story being sold as well. Poor results aren’t exclusively reflective on the coaching (though do play a part). No-one can deny we’ve had a very young and largely inexperienced squad. I’m sure the club would be well aware of what the issues are if players and/or their managers are saying they ‘don’t want to sign with you because of the coach’.

I just don’t think Api, Ramien and Herman are good measures. Api we know the story, Ramien always wanted to go back to the Sharts and so what if he had a meeting looking for money or a Plan B. Maybe we decided we didn’t want him because it was obvious he wasn’t coming for the right reasons. Herman don’t know but equally don’t care - no major loss.

It's not the end of the world that we didn't sign those three. Api obviously would have made a big difference. My point was there was some money to spend at that time as confirmed by Hill acknowledging we were chasing all three and had room to sign them. So it's not like we had no money and couldn't sign anyone which is what some were arguing.

Either way, that's all in the past and it's all about 2021. But to have Pay at the helm for 2021 and beyond will make it harder to recruit in my opinion.

Players generally want to join teams where they can play with freedom in attack. What's the vision and selling point to players wanting to join the club? That our entire gameplan is to tackle our way to victory and we have no plan B?

 

[DinkumDog]

It's not the end of the world that we didn't sign those three. Api obviously would have made a big difference. My point was there was some money to spend at that time as confirmed by Hill acknowledging we were chasing all three and had room to sign them. So it's not like we had no money and couldn't sign anyone which is what some were arguing.

Either way, that's all in the past and it's all about 2021. But to have Pay at the helm for 2021 and beyond will make it harder to recruit in my opinion.

Players generally want to join teams where they can play with freedom in attack. What's the vision and selling point to players wanting to join the club? That our entire gameplan is to tackle our way to victory and we have no plan B?

Well the club has a strong no leaks policy in place so whatever they’re selling they’re doing strategically and quietly.

I don’t believe they’re doing nothing.

Respect your views on Pay mate and I’m not saying a change won’t be necessary at some point. I too want what’s best for the club and our success. I just don’t think it’s fair to lay the blame of the last 2 years squarely at Pay’s feet. Cheers.

 

[El Padrino]

Dean Pay = Asian L plater

Recruitment = Driving Instructor

Bulldogs = Ferrari

2021 campaign = Brick wall

 

[mikey]

It doesn’t matter who coaches us at this point. We have to many average players.

We need to recruit some quality like we did for 2009 season. We went from wooden spoon to the top of the table with 5 quality recruits.

Exactly
Let him go out and buy some quality players and let’s judge him after that.

 

[nangsta]

Since when do the bookies and experts always get it right? They're wrong all of the time. In 2019 Brisbane were nearly favourites to win the comp and they finished 8th and lost in the finals by 50. Newcastle were also tipped to make the top 4 and compete for a title and missed the top 8. Manly were tipped to come near last and made the 8.

By the way, the difference in finishing 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th or 16th is negligible as all of those teams are poor and all had poor seasons. Trying to argue that finishing 12th as opposed to 16th is some sort of accomplishment by any measure is bizarre to say the least.

We averaged 14 points per game last season which was worst in the comp and had the second worst for and against of -155. I can't fathom how that's considered overachieving, even in anyone's Bulldog/Dean Pay coloured glasses.

Some posters on here are part of the propaganda machine of the current board.

 

[SweetFA]

2 seasons and 2 games, not 3 seasons.
It might depend on the story being sold as well. Poor results aren’t exclusively reflective on the coaching (though do play a part). No-one can deny we’ve had a very young and largely inexperienced squad. I’m sure the club would be well aware of what the issues are if players and/or their managers are saying they ‘don’t want to sign with you because of the coach’.

I just don’t think Api, Ramien and Herman are good measures. Api we know the story, Ramien always wanted to go back to the Sharts and so what if he had a meeting looking for money or a Plan B. Maybe we decided we didn’t want him because it was obvious he wasn’t coming for the right reasons. Herman don’t know but equally don’t care - no major loss.

It’s admirable that you put a positive spin on our current situation.
You don’t think Koroisau , Ramien or Ese’ese are good measures? They were 3 players the Club targeted. It’s as pertinent as it is alarming that for one reason or another the Bulldogs were unable to sign any of these plodders. ( I won’t mention that Blake Ferguson was also shown through our facilities yet signed with the Eels. ) I recall you also being relieved that we dodged a bullet when we missed out on L Mitchell.
1) Koroisau :- it’s a sad indictment on our recruitment team (Hill,Pay, Price & Hughes) that after agreeing to terms, at the 11th hour he signs with the Panthers.
2) Ese’ese:- in June 2019 he was told by the Knights he was not in the plans moving forward. The only interest shown was by the Bulldogs, an offer in excess $350k was tabled(way overs). He told his manager he wasn’t interested in going back to the Dogs. FAIL
3) Ramien:- Our recruitment team put all their eggs in this basket, again Ramien told the Dogs through his manager that despite being offered a very lucrative 3 year deal, he was not interested in playing here. FAIL
The recruitment committee was incapable of converting any of these negotiations into signings/acquisitions.

Successful recruitment 2019
CHN:- The “no dickheads policy” was put aside for this signing. Became “persona non grata” at the Panthers. A leopard (Panther)never changes its spots. DEREGISTERED

DWZ:- 3rd choice Fullback at the Panthers, told by coaching staff more chance of playing NRL on the wing. Didn’t like it so he wanted out. Enter the Bulldogs signs on the proviso he gets a shot to play fullback. Performs credibly for the Dogs back end of season 2019. In season 2020 in the first 2 games his weaknesses become more obvious poor passing game and average ball security. PASS

In summary, in the past 12months
We missed out on at least the following signings whether good, bad or indifferent
Koroisau, Ese’ese, Ramien, Mitchell, Ferguson

We successfully acquired DWZ, Britt, Stimson.

We keep being fed “exciting news & signings are imminent” but.........

Hardly endorsing

I try to remain philosophical about our predicament but actions speak louder than Hill’s words.
There needs to be change ASAP

 

[El Padrino]

It’s admirable that you put a positive spin on our current situation.
You don’t think Koroisau , Ramien or Ese’ese are good measures? They were 3 players the Club targeted. It’s as pertinent as it is alarming that for one reason or another the Bulldogs were unable to sign any of these plodders. ( I won’t mention that Blake Ferguson was also shown through our facilities yet signed with the Eels. ) I recall you also being relieved that we dodged a bullet when we missed out on L Mitchell.
1) Koroisau :- it’s a sad indictment on our recruitment team (Hill,Pay, Price & Hughes) that after agreeing to terms, at the 11th hour he signs with the Panthers.
2) Ese’ese:- in June 2019 he was told by the Knights he was not in the plans moving forward. The only interest shown was by the Bulldogs, an offer in excess $350k was tabled(way overs). He told his manager he wasn’t interested in going back to the Dogs. FAIL
3) Ramien:- Our recruitment team put all their eggs in this basket, again Ramien told the Dogs through his manager that despite being offered a very lucrative 3 year deal, he was not interested in playing here. FAIL
The recruitment committee was incapable of converting any of these negotiations into signings/acquisitions.

Successful recruitment 2019
CHN:- The “no dickheads policy” was put aside for this signing. Became “persona non grata” at the Panthers. A leopard (Panther)never changes its spots. DEREGISTERED

DWZ:- 3rd choice Fullback at the Panthers, told by coaching staff more chance of playing NRL on the wing. Didn’t like it so he wanted out. Enter the Bulldogs signs on the proviso he gets a shot to play fullback. Performs credibly for the Dogs back end of season 2019. In season 2020 in the first 2 games his weaknesses become more obvious poor passing game and average ball security. PASS

In summary, in the past 12months
We missed out on at least the following signings whether good, bad or indifferent
Koroisau, Ese’ese, Ramien, Mitchell, Ferguson

We successfully acquired DWZ, Britt, Stimson.

We keep being fed “exciting news & signings are imminent” but.........

Hardly endorsing

I try to remain philosophical about our predicament but actions speak louder than Hill’s words.
There needs to change ASAP

well said brother

 

[DinkumDog]

It’s admirable that you put a positive spin on our current situation.
You don’t think Koroisau , Ramien or Ese’ese are good measures? They were 3 players the Club targeted. It’s as pertinent as it is alarming that for one reason or another the Bulldogs were unable to sign any of these plodders. ( I won’t mention that Blake Ferguson was also shown through our facilities yet signed with the Eels. ) I recall you also being relieved that we dodged a bullet when we missed out on L Mitchell.
1) Koroisau :- it’s a sad indictment on our recruitment team (Hill,Pay, Price & Hughes) that after agreeing to terms, at the 11th hour he signs with the Panthers.
2) Ese’ese:- in June 2019 he was told by the Knights he was not in the plans moving forward. The only interest shown was by the Bulldogs, an offer in excess $350k was tabled(way overs). He told his manager he wasn’t interested in going back to the Dogs. FAIL
3) Ramien:- Our recruitment team put all their eggs in this basket, again Ramien told the Dogs through his manager that despite being offered a very lucrative 3 year deal, he was not interested in playing here. FAIL
The recruitment committee was incapable of converting any of these negotiations into signings/acquisitions.

Successful recruitment 2019
CHN:- The “no dickheads policy” was put aside for this signing. Became “persona non grata” at the Panthers. A leopard (Panther)never changes its spots. DEREGISTERED

DWZ:- 3rd choice Fullback at the Panthers, told by coaching staff more chance of playing NRL on the wing. Didn’t like it so he wanted out. Enter the Bulldogs signs on the proviso he gets a shot to play fullback. Performs credibly for the Dogs back end of season 2019. In season 2020 in the first 2 games his weaknesses become more obvious poor passing game and average ball security. PASS

In summary, in the past 12months
We missed out on at least the following signings whether good, bad or indifferent
Koroisau, Ese’ese, Ramien, Mitchell, Ferguson

We successfully acquired DWZ, Britt, Stimson.

We keep being fed “exciting news & signings are imminent” but.........

Hardly endorsing

I try to remain philosophical about our predicament but actions speak louder than Hill’s words.
There needs to be change ASAP

Nice spin yourself .
Everyone entitled to their view.

Yep I was relieved we pulled out, not missed out on Mitchell. Dodged bullet indeed - so far a dud fullback and likely back to the centres at Redfern before long. I'll be surprised if he ever hits the heights from Bondi when he was surrounded by class.
Yet plenty on here wanted to give him the world.

I've addressed the other 3 and don't think it reflects badly. You do (and claim insider knowledge about what players told their managers etc). Fair enough.
Ferguson - a 'failure' that he chose another club? Maybe he didn't want to wait a couple of years to play finals footy as he approaches the end of his career - I can appreciate that but that's our reality I've never shied away from given our cap position.

You won't catch me supporting CHN so yeah, you could say that was a blight, but at least the club didn't defend him when he proved leopards don't change their spots (nice to agree on something ).
DWZ - yes his first two games this year weren't stellar but I'm not going to judge him solely on that - jury still out.

Kept ‘being fed exciting news and signings imminent' - when?
The club has never said a word (apart from walking away from Mitchell and announcing Thompson).
They have said 'we're always interested to talk to quality players' - as would any club - and so many factors why such discussions might not pan out.
Hill did say in the past week there's exciting times coming - the first time I've heard any club official say anything like that since they were upfront with us in 2018 that we wouldn't be competitive until 2021.

I've said several times we won't know about 2021 until after 30 June and for obvious reasons.
I've also said consistently my judgement comes mid-2021 - based on ability to truly recruit with competitive dollars and how the coaching staff prepare them and if changes are needed there also, which I think is premature at this stage.

We have 6-10 regular/fringe first graders off contract this year. Several won't be re-signed - what does that tell you?

As much as I miss the footy, the Rona has been a bit of a blessing in disguise - I never had huge expectations for 2020 - if anything it was a chance for our young blokes to blood a bit more. This shorter season however it ends up looking gets us closer to where we can actually assemble a quality squad.

Finally - as I've also repeatedly said - if the club administration don't deliver by mid 2021 - they will likely be challenged and replaced in February 2022 - and possibly with the support of my vote.

In the meantime, I'm OK to be patient unlike many of our Kennel brethren, perhaps including yourself. Maybe you'll provide some detail around the 'needed changes ASAP'?

 

[SweetFA]

Nice spin yourself . Everyone entitled to their view.
Hell yes I was relieved when we didn't sign Mitchell (which we pulled out of, not 'missed out' on). As you said - dodged bullet - so far a dud at fullback and likely back in the centres at Redfern before long. I'll be surprised if he ever hits the highs he did at Bondi when he was surrounded by class.
I've addressed the other 3 and don't think it's a bad reflection on the club. You do (and claim insider knowledge about what players told their managers etc). Fair enough.
Ferguson - why is it a 'failure' that he chose another club? Maybe he didn't want to wait a couple of years to play finals football after coming from the Chooks as he's approaching the end of his career - I can understand that but that's our reality that I've never shied away from that given our cap position.
You won't catch me supporting CHN so yeah, you could say that was a blight, but at least the club didn't try to defend him when he proved leopards don't change their spots (probably the only part of your post I agree with).
DWZ - yes his first two games this year weren't stellar but I'm not going to judge him solely on that - jury still out.
As for kept being fed 'exciting news and signings imminent' - when? When has the club ever said a word about that? Never. They've consistently said 'we're always interested to talk to quality players' - as would any club - but there's so many factors about why those discussions might not pan out.
Hill did say in the past week that there's exciting times coming and that's about the first time I've heard any club official say anything along those lines. So, I'm going to give them until after 30 June to see what happens as I've said several times.
Equally as I've said consistently my judgement on the club and its management comes in mid-2021 - based on ability to truly recruit with competitive dollars and how the coaching staff knock them into shape and if changes are needed there also, which I think is premature at this stage.
We have 6-10 regular or fringe first graders off contract this year. Several won't be re-signed - what does that tell you?
As much as I miss the footy, the Rona has been a bit of a blessing in disguise - I never had significant expectations for 2020 and this shorter season gets us closer to entering a phase where we can actually assemble a quality squad.
Finally - as I've also repeatedly said - as a voting member, if the club administration don't prove their worth by season 2021 - then they will likely be challenged and replaced in February 2022 - and likely with my vote and blessing.
In the meantime, I'm happy to wait unlike many of our Kennel brethren, perhaps including yourself. Maybe you'll provide some detail around the 'needed changes ASAP'?

I’m all for robust & healthy debate, but there needs to be substance in the rebuttal.
Up until 5 seasons ago, if The Bulldogs missed the top 4 it was considered a monumental failure, fast forward to the present, it we make the top 8 it’s considered an achievement- a milestone!
To paint the picture of reality of just how far we’ve fallen, we were once the powerhouse in the same vain as the Broncos, Roosters & Storm- we are now considered in the same ilk as the Titans Warriors.
The changes needed ASAP:-
S Price has quickly learned that running a Football Department is a difficult beast to tame. So far he has been a massive disappointment; there has been no improvement from the Farrar tenure.
Our Recruitment/Pathways group:
M Hughes an amazing stalwart for our Club fantastic underrated footballer & was the architect behind Souths’ 2014 premiership. Implemented the Payhways programme at Penrith (not difficult with their junior catchment). In his current term has only recruited 3 from his old Club, all 3 were released without much ado. His performance so far has been ordinary. Unfortunately past his best
David Hamilton was a recruitment manager at the Titans & Raiders. He was signed by Steve Levinsky Football Operations Manager as they worked closely at the Raiders. He got the nod due to his connections with Northern NSW in his last role in recruitment at the Titans.
Both Hughes & Hamilton have poor relationships with the majority of player managers & is reflective of our unacceptable recruitment position.
He’s assisted by Craig Wilson (pathways & development)former assistant coaching roles at the Eels & Sharks where he also worked with Steve Levinsky at the Sharks.
We are yet to see any positive out of our Northern NSW partnership.
In my humble opinion our coaching staff needs upgrading. Dean Pay has brought in Steve Antonelli who was the coach of The Raiders feeder side Mounties with little success.
While I like Pay he has surrounded himself with some ordinary cohorts.
Pay has brought to the Club from the Raiders
Steve Levinsky
Steve Antonelli
David Hamilton.
While Steve Levinsky has brought in his good mate
Craig Wilson.

I have yet to see any progress or improvement under these appointments.

 

[bradyk]

I’m all for robust & healthy debate, but there needs to be substance in the rebuttal.
Up until 5 seasons ago, if The Bulldogs missed the top 4 it was considered a monumental failure, fast forward to the present, it we make the top 8 it’s considered an achievement- a milestone!
To paint the picture of reality of just how far we’ve fallen, we were once the powerhouse in the same vain as the Broncos, Roosters & Storm- we are now considered in the same ilk as the Titans Warriors.
The changes needed ASAP:-
S Price has quickly learned that running a Football Department is a difficult beast to tame. So far he has been a massive disappointment; there has been no improvement from the Farrar tenure.
Our Recruitment/Pathways group:
M Hughes an amazing stalwart for our Club fantastic underrated footballer & was the architect behind Souths’ 2014 premiership. Implemented the Payhways programme at Penrith (not difficult with their junior catchment). In his current term has only recruited 3 from his old Club, all 3 were released without much ado. His performance so far has been ordinary. Unfortunately past his best
David Hamilton was a recruitment manager at the Titans & Raiders. He was signed by Steve Levinsky Football Operations Manager as they worked closely at the Raiders. He got the nod due to his connections with Northern NSW in his last role in recruitment at the Titans.
Both Hughes & Hamilton have poor relationships with the majority of player managers & is reflective of our unacceptable recruitment position.
He’s assisted by Craig Wilson (pathways & development)former assistant coaching roles at the Eels & Sharks where he also worked with Steve Levinsky at the Sharks.
We are yet to see any positive out of our Northern NSW partnership.
In my humble opinion our coaching staff needs upgrading. Dean Pay has brought in Steve Antonelli who was the coach of The Raiders feeder side Mounties with little success.
While I like Pay he has surrounded himself with some ordinary cohorts.
Pay has brought to the Club from the Raiders
Steve Levinsky
Steve Antonelli
David Hamilton.
While Steve Levinsky has brought in his good mate
Craig Wilson.

I have yet to see any progress or improvement under these appointments.

There was almost nothing the club could of done until 2021 because of our salary cap position and how we were left after Castle/Dib. This was amplified when the club refused to pay overs for top players (we never had a lot of money to spend in the first place, but there was definitely players we had enough money left to buy).

You can throw out we missed X players which is fine, but would you really of been impressed if the club offered ~600-700k for Ramien (signed for ~500k at the Sharks) and around the same for Koroisau (who at the time fans were saying wasn't worth more than 400k). After seeing Koroisau after the first two rounds I think a lot of people would say yes regarding him now but it's also very possible he goes back down to reality and he's in a purple patch (I always thought he was going to be good, but not as good as he's shown so far). The reality is we're not an attraction to play at currently without money being an incentive. Top players are going to have more than one club to choose between. If the club for whatever reason hasn't figured this out and we're much the same (which I don't think is possible due to us having to spend 95% of our salary cap) for 2021 than I almost guarantee there will be changes come 2022 (it's too early to call for their heads right now).

The reality is we have a bottom four roster (with one of the worst spines in the competition, also going to mention little to no X Factor). Anyone with half a brain knew the expectations going into this season (especially after seeing the last two seasons) so I'm not sure why you're slagging off our coaching staff (sure, I can't say they're the best, but they're fine for where we're) when going off last season they did better than expected (we were tipped for the wooden spoon) and we were not favourites to beat Eels (which we stayed in the game for eighty minutes) or Cowboys this year. Our roster is two to three million under the salary cap (this "excuse" is gone next year) and that's the biggest reason why we're going to improve in 2021. This situation is very comparable to the Knights in 2017/2018.

You saying we used to be a powerhouse club means absolutely nothing. We're now rebuilding to be a top eight team (2021 recruits and possibly a top coach when available) from a bottom four team. Until we're there I wouldn't be throwing out that we should be a powerhouse, there is still a long way to go. Again the people (Castle/Dib) running the club a few years ago made a massive mistake that has put us in this position.

 

[speedy2460]

Biggest problem for 2021 might be the salary cap. It looks like it will be reduced.
That means that players will have to accept less. So the club has to be on the ball with player payments.
We have to get value for money.
Paying overs looks like its finished.

 

[2ndphase]

There was almost nothing the club could of done until 2021 because of our salary cap position and how we were left after Castle/Dib. This was amplified when the club refused to pay overs for top players (we never had a lot of money to spend in the first place, but there was definitely players we had enough money left to buy).

You can throw out we missed X players which is fine, but would you really of been impressed if the club offered ~600-700k for Ramien (signed for ~500k at the Sharks) and around the same for Koroisau (who at the time fans were saying wasn't worth more than 400k). After seeing Koroisau after the first two rounds I think a lot of people would say yes regarding him now but it's also very possible he goes back down to reality and he's in a purple patch (I always thought he was going to be good, but not as good as he's shown so far). The reality is we're not an attraction to play at currently without money being an incentive. Top players are going to have more than one club to choose between. If the club for whatever reason hasn't figured this out and we're much the same (which I don't think is possible due to us having to spend 95% of our salary cap) for 2021 than I almost guarantee there will be changes come 2022 (it's too early to call for their heads right now).

The reality is we have a bottom four roster (with one of the worst spines in the competition, also going to mention little to no X Factor). Anyone with half a brain knew the expectations going into this season (especially after seeing the last two seasons) so I'm not sure why you're slagging off our coaching staff (sure, I can't say they're the best, but they're fine for where we're) when going off last season they did better than expected (we were tipped for the wooden spoon) and we were not favourites to beat Eels (which we stayed in the game for eighty minutes) or Cowboys this year. Our roster is two to three million under the salary cap (this "excuse" is gone next year) and that's the biggest reason why we're going to improve in 2021. This situation is very comparable to the Knights in 2017/2018.

You saying we used to be a powerhouse club means absolutely nothing. We're now rebuilding to be a top eight team (2021 recruits and possibly a top coach when available) from a bottom four team. Until we're there I wouldn't be throwing out that we should be a powerhouse, there is still a long way to go. Again the people (Castle/Dib) running the club a few years ago made a massive mistake that has put us in this position.

If the so called experts were right picking the premierships and wooden spoons every year id be a rich man!!

 

[DinkumDog]

I’m all for robust & healthy debate, but there needs to be substance in the rebuttal.
Up until 5 seasons ago, if The Bulldogs missed the top 4 it was considered a monumental failure, fast forward to the present, it we make the top 8 it’s considered an achievement- a milestone!
To paint the picture of reality of just how far we’ve fallen, we were once the powerhouse in the same vain as the Broncos, Roosters & Storm- we are now considered in the same ilk as the Titans Warriors.
The changes needed ASAP:-
S Price has quickly learned that running a Football Department is a difficult beast to tame. So far he has been a massive disappointment; there has been no improvement from the Farrar tenure.
Our Recruitment/Pathways group:
M Hughes an amazing stalwart for our Club fantastic underrated footballer & was the architect behind Souths’ 2014 premiership. Implemented the Payhways programme at Penrith (not difficult with their junior catchment). In his current term has only recruited 3 from his old Club, all 3 were released without much ado. His performance so far has been ordinary. Unfortunately past his best
David Hamilton was a recruitment manager at the Titans & Raiders. He was signed by Steve Levinsky Football Operations Manager as they worked closely at the Raiders. He got the nod due to his connections with Northern NSW in his last role in recruitment at the Titans.
Both Hughes & Hamilton have poor relationships with the majority of player managers & is reflective of our unacceptable recruitment position.
He’s assisted by Craig Wilson (pathways & development)former assistant coaching roles at the Eels & Sharks where he also worked with Steve Levinsky at the Sharks.
We are yet to see any positive out of our Northern NSW partnership.
In my humble opinion our coaching staff needs upgrading. Dean Pay has brought in Steve Antonelli who was the coach of The Raiders feeder side Mounties with little success.
While I like Pay he has surrounded himself with some ordinary cohorts.
Pay has brought to the Club from the Raiders
Steve Levinsky
Steve Antonelli
David Hamilton.
While Steve Levinsky has brought in his good mate
Craig Wilson.

I have yet to see any progress or improvement under these appointments.

Substance in the rebuttal .
How noble of you to set the rules of engagement .

Up until 5 seasons ago, the Bulldogs seemed in control of their corporate governance. Along came a person by the name of Castle.
We know the rest of the story and there's no point in repeating it, but the truth is we are still paying the price of that mis-management until the end of this season.
You may be aware that same person this past week was pushed out of Rugby Australia in the same position for a similar poor performance over a similar tenure. Wonder how long it's going to take RA to crawl back from the dungeon just as it's taken the Bulldogs 2.5 years so far with more work to do.

OK, so for 'changes' you address the coaching staff. You seem to have overlooked my comment in my previous post: and how the coaching staff prepare them and if changes are needed there also, which I think is premature at this stage.
If you thought that was a reference to Pay only like many of the calls on here 'Sack Pay!' - you were wrong.
But what did you expect in the year since the Farrar exit when we were still shackled until the end of 2020?
What exactly was Price going to achieve in the 8 months he's been GM of Football with the restrictions the club was still under? I'll tell you exactly what he's been focussed on - junior development - another key factor of successful clubs that was allowed to rot under the previous management of the Three Amigos.
So you say he's been a disappointment because what - you haven't seen big names sign with us so far? What's the measurement?
Why would you go making wholesale changes to the football department now when that was only done 12 months ago without considering the broader plan for 2021 and beyond - which none of us know the details of yet?

As for alleged 'poor relationship with player managers' - that's because the club won't allow said managers to set the agenda?
I say bravo to that - greedy players and managers should be shown that the clubs will not be trampled on because your primma donna client thinks he's worth $1m a season - case in point L. Mitchell.
Perhaps the Rona will reset some expectations of the age of entitlement.

'We are yet to see anything positive out of our Northern NSW Partnership' - there's two - so which one, Greater Northern (Northern Inland NSW) or North Coast (Forster to Grafton)? They were announced in September 2018 and April 2019 respectively.
And you expect exactly what in 18 and 12 months, again when those partnerships are all about pathways and feeding juniors into our system.
And I'm afraid the latter of those partnerships was just damaged by 2 selfish former employees and their antics - 'oh, but it was legal sex!'. That's going to take time to rebuild too. Imagine the mothers of young boys in the region who might be thinking 'I don't want my son associated with that club'.

Anyway, it's clear we disagree and you believe my position has 'no substance' so we can leave it there. I'm looking forward to what we hear from the club between July and September of this year and how things start to shape up for and within 2021. Until then, I see no reason to hit the panic button.
But you're entitled to your views and if you're a voting member, you'll be able to have your say on the matter in February 2022 if you don't agree with the direction. For more clarity, you might like to talk to a board member in the mean time as well.