Have we forgotten one important factor ... ?

Tassie Devil

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Without ruffling a few feathers here I think a lot of you are missing the point .... or maybe I didn't communicate myself properly?

I'm not saying Pay is good or bad. For the record, I was positively surprised by him at the backend of the season. He deserves credit for unifying the squad. Bringing us together. There does seem like a real bond amongst the squad. And the recent mass re-signings point to them being happy and believing in his vision.

I just don't know why he's been exempt from all of the discussions recently. For some time we debated about whether he was / is the right man to lead us forward. Many were up in arms about Holbrook not coming to us. But as soon as the push for new players began ... nothing ... Why?

If we're going to truly discuss our apparent 'bad' recruitment then let's discuss everything rather than using our own agendas to push against management. Why's no one talking about Pay? Now, I'm not saying he's good or bad. I'm just questioning why the shift?

The coach is what the team is built around. You can have superstars but a bad coach ... A coach with a vision. A certain style of play. A charisma. This coach draws players in. They want to play for him.

Why aren't players doing that with Pay? You talk about money all the time, and that's important. But at the same time the players still want to play for a coach they can believe in. Are the lack of signings showing us that they don't have that belief in him?
 

coach

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Without ruffling a few feathers here I think a lot of you are missing the point .... or maybe I didn't communicate myself properly?

I'm not saying Pay is good or bad. For the record, I was positively surprised by him at the backend of the season. He deserves credit for unifying the squad. Bringing us together. There does seem like a real bond amongst the squad. And the recent mass re-signings point to them being happy and believing in his vision.

I just don't know why he's been exempt from all of the discussions recently. For some time we debated about whether he was / is the right man to lead us forward. Many were up in arms about Holbrook not coming to us. But as soon as the push for new players began ... nothing ... Why?

If we're going to truly discuss our apparent 'bad' recruitment then let's discuss everything rather than using our own agendas to push against management. Why's no one talking about Pay? Now, I'm not saying he's good or bad. I'm just questioning why the shift?

The coach is what the team is built around. You can have superstars but a bad coach ... A coach with a vision. A certain style of play. A charisma. This coach draws players in. They want to play for him.

Why aren't players doing that with Pay? You talk about money all the time, and that's important. But at the same time the players still want to play for a coach they can believe in. Are the lack of signings showing us that they don't have that belief in him?
If the players weren’t playing for pay or them self’s at the end of last year with nothing to play for I will give it away
The determination they showed late last year is credit to pay, his ability to get the team up week in week out late with nothing to play for was great
Wether his the one, who knows
And I think part the decision not to go with latrell is what you said
Pay has brought the squad together, his got that bond with them
I think Mitchell at the moment demanding this and that doesn’t fit the bill
Look at what klopp has done with your Liverpool, moved on the big heads(continiho) etc
And bought in players that believe in him and his systems
Look no further than your Liverpool
Klopps been giving time to build his roster
They won nothing for years
But they trusted him
Pay wants players that want to play for him his team mates and the jersey
Not just some bloke demanding money and demanding the fullback spot
 

DinkumDog

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I’m glad we haven’t signed any of these “big names” and the huge salaries they are expecting. We don’t want to slip back into the days where Des Hasler messes our salary cap to the point where it has taken several seasons to get over and still a few to come. I know someone reading will straight away say “look what he’s done with manly and they have cap problems.” Well not huge cap problems and their money is tied up in their 7,1,10. Don’t forget where they came from .... they are just starting to recover from 2011 when Des Hasler left them in a nightmare state before a few good years with us that resulted in too many back ended deals.
We should have an ideal dollar figure per portion and stick to it as a max . No exceptions. Build a balanced team .
Pity common sense like this isn’t all that common.

I was really surprised Hasler got another job, let alone back at Manly. Toovey definitely and potentially Barrett both paid the price with their jobs because of the mess Hasler left. He was lucky he had a strong squad and his ‘window’ tactics worked for Manly - winning comps in ‘08 and ‘11. He tried the same with us but we failed in both ‘12 and ‘14 - because our team wasn’t strong enough. He then made it worse trying to keep the window open up to ‘16.

He obviously has a good football brain, but we made a huge mistake giving him too much power. Not only has this not happened again under Pay, it should never happen under any coach. The coach should be a part of the recruitment and retention committee - not the only one on the committee!
 

flamebouyant

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Another player choosing someone / anyone but us. Hard to take. Can understand the frustration. We all want big signings, so it's hard seeing so many players slip through our fingers for whatever reason.

Come on here day-in-day-out and every man and his dog is ripping into our recruitment team. Should be paying this much more. Not offering enough. Lacking negotiation skills. Etc. Etc.

Very very few have mentioned the biggest factor in all of this imo. Our coach.

Let's not forget it's his role to sell his vision of the team to potential new players. He's got to pitch our values and what it'd mean for a player to join us. Any player worth his grain of salt will be asking any coach about how they see that player fitting into the system. Standard imo.

So ... doesn't seem that many players are that attracted to playing with him it seems?

And that gets us to the BIGGEST factor. Are we all sold on him being the right coach for us anyway? We're talking about signing big players, but we need someone to inspire them also. Why aren't we talking more about our coach?
Dont forget that we had one of the most inexperienced team lists in the NRL this year, especially our spine. There were also many changes from the team last year, to the team this year. There were many factors that contributed to our form, or lack thereof. So you cant solely blame the coach for our lack of results and subsequent pulling power as suggested.
If all reports are true and the club hierarchy have decided not to pursue LM, then I will respect that decision. Putting the right team together is a massive balancing act, and I feel that LM probably would have pushed the balance into a similar position to that which we have almost gotten out of. He would have been a great signing I'm sure, but the world wont end if we dont sign him.
 

BlackDawg

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I you are assessing Pay it is best to keep perspective on the circumstances of his appointment;

1. Des, Dib, Ralene & Cleal had pretty much let our roster stagnate and age, made terrible recruitment decisions, back ended contracts and destroyed our juniors
2. Pay was hired because no Tier 1 coach would touch us when they had to sit back and rebuild for 3 to 5 years
3. Pay was hired as our salary cape situation was so dire that we had to horse trade out with other clubs and pay them for several years to free up enough space to start a rebuild during the years the restrictions were in place
4. During those years we have recruited DWC, CHN, Crighton, Cogger, Stimson, Britt and the kid on the wing. We have also seen Lewis, To'omaga, Smith and Okenbaur rise from juniors

If you put this in perspective Pay has done a fairly good job not just to cherry pick the best talent for budget price but also galvanize the squad and keep us from the wooden spoon. I remain unsure about whether marquee players will flock to him but player agents would be giving feedback to the club about why their clients chose to go elsewhere. The players in our existing squad would be also giving feedback and as "Coach" above said they played as a bloody cohesive unit in that last 8 weeks. I would go as far to say that the club would be more than happy with where we are now to where we were when the clowns in charge all departed 2 years ago.
 

DinkumDog

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Without ruffling a few feathers here I think a lot of you are missing the point .... or maybe I didn't communicate myself properly?

I'm not saying Pay is good or bad. For the record, I was positively surprised by him at the backend of the season. He deserves credit for unifying the squad. Bringing us together. There does seem like a real bond amongst the squad. And the recent mass re-signings point to them being happy and believing in his vision.

I just don't know why he's been exempt from all of the discussions recently. For some time we debated about whether he was / is the right man to lead us forward. Many were up in arms about Holbrook not coming to us. But as soon as the push for new players began ... nothing ... Why?

If we're going to truly discuss our apparent 'bad' recruitment then let's discuss everything rather than using our own agendas to push against management. Why's no one talking about Pay? Now, I'm not saying he's good or bad. I'm just questioning why the shift?

The coach is what the team is built around. You can have superstars but a bad coach ... A coach with a vision. A certain style of play. A charisma. This coach draws players in. They want to play for him.

Why aren't players doing that with Pay? You talk about money all the time, and that's important. But at the same time the players still want to play for a coach they can believe in. Are the lack of signings showing us that they don't have that belief in him?
Tenure could be part of it.
Pay is only signed ‘til the end of ‘20 (currently).

Maybe some players want a longer view.
We’ve seen examples where a player joins a club, there is a coaching change and then that player wants out. Remember also our club apart from eliminating back-ended contracts and those with ratchet clauses also eliminated clauses for players to leave based on a coaching change.

This ensures the right players join our club on the right terms and we’re not tolerating the Prima Donna.

I’m sure the club will make our 2021 plans both roster and coach wise quite clear in the coming months.
 

wendog33

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Tenure could be part of it.
Pay is only signed ‘til the end of ‘20 (currently).

Maybe some players want a longer view.
We’ve seen examples where a player joins a club, there is a coaching change and then that player wants out. Remember also our club apart from eliminating back-ended contracts and those with ratchet clauses also eliminated clauses for players to leave based on a coaching change.

This ensures the right players join our club on the right terms and we’re not tolerating the Prima Donna.

I’m sure the club will make our 2021 plans both roster and coach wise quite clear in the coming months.
Yes expect ...we don't have any more player signings news for you dear members and supporters but...the club is overjoyed to announce the 5 year extension of Coach Pay. This news gives us the much needed stability to launch our raid into the player market in 2023 when we have finalised and cleared out all of the backended contracts and ratchet clauses we found laying in a dusty filing cabinet in Des' old office.
 

DinkumDog

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Yes expect ...we don't have any more player signings news for you dear members and supporters but...the club is overjoyed to announce the 5 year extension of Coach Pay. This news gives us the much needed stability to launch our raid into the player market in 2023 when we have finalised and cleared out all of the backended contracts and ratchet clauses we found laying in a dusty filing cabinet in Des' old office.
Mate c’mon. You make some really intelligent posts but this is just madness.

Pay has had 1 x 2 and 1 x 1 year terms.
Who has said anything about 5 years?
If anything, the club offering 2 and 3 years to players shows we’re not offering long terms, extensions are earned only. Same for coaches.

And 2023 - really?
Can you name a single club / player where a transfer for 2021 has been announced?
I can’t.

Why are people freaking that because a raft of signings wasn’t announced on 1 November that nothing is being done?

I get it - you’re a frustrated supporter, maybe more frustrated it’s off season.

We are in the same boat and we all want the same thing - but perspective remains important.
 

Horse

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Mate c’mon. You make some really intelligent posts but this is just madness.

Pay has had 1 x 2 and 1 x 1 year terms.
Who has said anything about 5 years?
If anything, the club offering 2 and 3 years to players shows we’re not offering long terms, extensions are earned only. Same for coaches.

And 2023 - really?
Can you name a single club / player where a transfer for 2021 has been announced?
I can’t.

Why are people freaking that because a raft of signings wasn’t announced on 1 November that nothing is being done?

I get it - you’re a frustrated supporter, maybe more frustrated it’s off season.

We are in the same boat and we all want the same thing - but perspective remains important.
Don’t waste your breath asking him to actually justify with evidence any of his claims and statements.
 

wendog33

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Mate c’mon. You make some really intelligent posts but this is just madness.

Pay has had 1 x 2 and 1 x 1 year terms.
Who has said anything about 5 years?
If anything, the club offering 2 and 3 years to players shows we’re not offering long terms, extensions are earned only. Same for coaches.

And 2023 - really?
Can you name a single club / player where a transfer for 2021 has been announced?
I can’t.

Why are people freaking that because a raft of signings wasn’t announced on 1 November that nothing is being done?

I get it - you’re a frustrated supporter, maybe more frustrated it’s off season.

We are in the same boat and we all want the same thing - but perspective remains important.
Just venting (and exaggerating for impact) lol

My thing is we all put the CB Bulldogs uppermost in our posts.

It's all a matter each fans perspective. Why do others get so upset about individual opinions?

It's not a contest to see who can be the most vulgar. Or a place to have agendas in favouring this Board, or the past Board, or this coach or CEO. It's just for giving your opinion on their performance FOR OUR CLUB AND IT'S SUCCESS. No one is above accountability or critiscism.

Long after this Board.
This roster.
This coach are long gone. We, our families, and friends we've made through our club, will still be here, venting and bickering over all aspects of running a successful, or unsuccessful club.



The discussion and dissecting of oppossing views on here should be celebrated and accepted as just the typical coming together of typucal fans, members and supporters.
 

DinkumDog

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Just venting (and exaggerating for impact) lol

My thing is we all put the CB Bulldogs uppermost in our posts.

It's all a matter each fans perspective. Why do others get so upset about individual opinions?

It's not a contest to see who can be the most vulgar. Or a place to have agendas in favouring this Board, or the past Board, or this coach or CEO. It's just for giving your opinion on their performance FOR OUR CLUB AND IT'S SUCCESS. No one is above accountability or critiscism.

Long after this Board.
This roster.
This coach are long gone. We, our families, and friends we've made through our club, will still be here, venting and bickering over all aspects of running a successful, or unsuccessful club.



The discussion and dissecting of oppossing views on here should be celebrated and accepted as just the typical coming together of typucal fans, members and supporters.
I’ve got no problems with opinions mate - but sensible ones. I don’t expect everyone to agree, but some of the stuff being written here is beyond stupid by any measure.

As for longevity, I’ve been a supporter of the club for more than 40 years and a member for 12 - pretty sure I’m down with longevity and loyalty.
 

doggieaaron

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Tigers paying him $1.3 mill this will end in tears no way latrell is mentally strong enough to handle the pressure of being the club’s highest paid player and must deliver every week,good on our club for not paying that type of stupid $$
 

bricktamland

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Pays done well .. our roster is the least experienced by far . W drone we’ll end of year momentum to carry into 2020 for sure
 

wendog33

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I’ve got no problems with opinions mate - but sensible ones. I don’t expect everyone to agree, but some of the stuff being written here is beyond stupid by any measure.

As for longevity, I’ve been a supporter of the club for more than 40 years and a member for 12 - pretty sure I’m down with longevity and loyalty.
Wasnt questioning anyone's longevity or loyalty...just emphasizing that all of us should remember rosters, CEOS, Boards all come and go but all of us have one thing in common...no one is paying us to work for the club...we all love it as a part of us. Why be bothered about someones opinion enough to abuse or belittle them is my view.
 

KLil

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If we start the year the same as we did last year then what?

If we have the second worst for and against again ?

If we continue to struggle to score like a bum in a brothel?

If we play like we did for most of the year and lose ?
Bum in a Brothel, nice.
 

albatross

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We are slowly getting there. Heres the team for round 1 last year.
1 Moses Mbye
2 Brett Morris
3 Josh Morris
4 Will Hopoate
5 Marcelo Montoya
6 Matthew Frawley
7 Kieran Foran
8 Aaron Woods
9 Michael Lichaa
10 David Klemmer
11 Joshua Jackson (c)
12 Raymond Faitala-Mariner
13 Danny Fualalo

14 Adam Elliott
15 Aiden Tolman
16 Greg Eastwood
17 Jeremy Marshall-King
It's interesting to look at the number of changes. Only 6 of those players max will be in our 2020 Rd 1 team and, since then, Pay has blooded Reimus (pretty much), Lewis, Renouf, Okunbor, and even Harper and Wakeham have had a game (most were local juniors or developed at the club). JMK, Cogger and Meaney were also pretty green with little FG experience.

So it really is a new side that's got potential to keep improving just by the younger players getting more experience. The main problem I think, apart from a clear lack of speed in the squad, is there's no obvious game-breaking champions coming out of our young lot, and that's what we need. Wakeham looks sharp and Renouf has the potential to become a very good off-loading front rower, but the evidence is far from conclusive for either at this stage. Put simply, we need to find ways to score more tries to be more competitive next year and I still can't see where they might come from.

Even for 2021, we are gonna need strike power. We'd all prefer that to be in the form of a great half and/or dummy half or fullback, but I agree with those arguing for us to sign a marquee player asap, even if there's no decent spine players available. Not sure Lattrell is the right man to get in a bidding war over, but I'd be going hard for Fifita, even if we are stacked with backrowers. He would be a huge investment for the future and we can say goodbye to Elliott and Smith at the end of next year.
 

albatross

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If we start the year the same as we did last year then what?

If we have the second worst for and against again ?

If we continue to struggle to score like a bum in a brothel?

If we play like we did for most of the year and lose ?
apparently there are some brothels where bums score regularly, but yes, we are like the ones where bums tend to miss out.
 

Dingo

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Oh ffs Dean is good for now. He is rebuilding something other coaches can't and it takes time. Bulldog spirit! The time will come when the stars will come to us.
 

JackDog

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Fantastic, Pay had us playing well together when it was too late. Two years in a row.

If/when it happens again next year, will everyone be singing his praises again?
 

bradyk

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Coach isn't a factor really. A team that's successful (factor one) will have a good coach or at least other people will think the coach is good. They're pretty much tangible. The other factor is money. Pay's done a terrific job with the roster he has. I'd say we over achieved last year. If Pay can finish outside the bottom four next season that's also satisfactory. 2021 is the season that I see us being competitive in the eight unless we don't recruit properly - we aren't going to be able to attract players using the successful factor. Also I'd like to say that the Knights (wooden spooners) and Nathan Brown (not a top coach) were able to attract Ponga, Pearce, Klemmer and plenty other players. They even recruit Brailey for next season someone that we could of really used for next season.
 
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