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Book

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feel sorry for sbw. he deserved starting No.12 shirt based on S15. They gave first crack to the incumbent. Nonu did well. So you can't drop him. Doesn't mean that SBW is not a good player. Doesn't even mean that Nonu is necessarily better than SBW. That's just the way it goes sometimes. He's got to bide his time, get some more experience. He'll be able to assert his dominance soon enuf. It's just his first season in NZ rugby, so he's done pretty well.
They actually gave first crack to the player who performed worse in the Super 15 because the Fiji test was the only game before the Tri-Nations, so it was a chance for players to prove themselves. Players like Nonu, Sivivatu, Slade, Guildford etc. SBW was basically a certainty for the Tri-nations squad before that game anyway really.

Nonu is the better player by quite some way, I think people just have to accept that. Put SBW in the 2011 Hurricanes side and Nonu in the Crusaders side and you'll see the difference between the players.

Strangely enough, Sonny and Nonu may actually be playing together next season at Super 14 level as it's looking like Sonny Bill will sign with the Blues (and probably Auckland too, provincially). It'll be interesting to see who plays centre and who plays second five if they are both at the Blues.

No doubt the Blues will have some explosive fire power in the back division:

9. Alby Matthewson
10. Piri Weepu
11. Rene Ranger
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Sonny Bill Williams
14. Rudi Wulf
15. Isaea Toeava
 

OITENTA-E-NOVE

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Blues backline will be stacked. If sbw does sign with the chiefs, just means benson stanley another all black centre from last season would start as usual.
 

VAI

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A few words from Danny:

Mmm shirtless, pumped, sweaty, big, gobbling nuts, hugging. Spank me!
wow, the weed IS facebreaker. i knew it

oh wait....it's you :p

the weed is a troubled man
 

simmmo

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They actually gave first crack to the player who performed worse in the Super 15 because the Fiji test was the only game before the Tri-Nations, so it was a chance for players to prove themselves. Players like Nonu, Sivivatu, Slade, Guildford etc. SBW was basically a certainty for the Tri-nations squad before that game anyway really.

Nonu is the better player by quite some way, I think people just have to accept that. Put SBW in the 2011 Hurricanes side and Nonu in the Crusaders side and you'll see the difference between the players.

Strangely enough, Sonny and Nonu may actually be playing together next season at Super 14 level as it's looking like Sonny Bill will sign with the Blues (and probably Auckland too, provincially). It'll be interesting to see who plays centre and who plays second five if they are both at the Blues.

No doubt the Blues will have some explosive fire power in the back division:

9. Alby Matthewson
10. Piri Weepu
11. Rene Ranger
12. Ma'a Nonu
13. Sonny Bill Williams
14. Rudi Wulf
15. Isaea Toeava
I've made this comment before. Nonu's got the experience over SBW. That does translate into play of course. But I do think that Sonny is just a better footballer. And in time, if sonny sticks with rugby, you'll see this clearly.

If SBW ends up with the blues i'd swap him and Nonu around. put him at 12 and Nonu at 13. Nonu would be loving running off those off loads.
 

Book

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I've made this comment before. Nonu's got the experience over SBW. That does translate into play of course. But I do think that Sonny is just a better footballer. And in time, if sonny sticks with rugby, you'll see this clearly.

If SBW ends up with the blues i'd swap him and Nonu around. put him at 12 and Nonu at 13. Nonu would be loving running off those off loads.
So what if he has more experience? He's a better player.

I thought SBW would keep excelling, but he's hit a real flat point. His passing has been horrible, he's been making an error for every offload and he doesn't even bend the line like Nonu can. SBW might be the better league player, but I'm starting to believe very strongly that he will never be as good as Nonu as a second five.
 

suiker

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So what if he has more experience? He's a better player.

I thought SBW would keep excelling, but he's hit a real flat point. His passing has been horrible, he's been making an error for every offload and he doesn't even bend the line like Nonu can. SBW might be the better league player, but I'm starting to believe very strongly that he will never be as good as Nonu as a second five.
I haven't been watching him so this is only a speculation, do you think it could be a case of "trying to hard" considering the world cup coming up and how badly he wants it?
 

simmmo

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So what if he has more experience? He's a better player.

I thought SBW would keep excelling, but he's hit a real flat point. His passing has been horrible, he's been making an error for every offload and he doesn't even bend the line like Nonu can. SBW might be the better league player, but I'm starting to believe very strongly that he will never be as good as Nonu as a second five.
Sonny's better. That's the bottom line. How many times have we seen Nonu hit a form slump. Sonny's better
 

Hansta

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Sonny's better. That's the bottom line. How many times have we seen Nonu hit a form slump. Sonny's better
Wow what a comeback? How'd you think of that one?
 

Book

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Sonny's better. That's the bottom line. How many times have we seen Nonu hit a form slump. Sonny's better
But Sonny is obviously not better. Nonu is playing on Saturday. And where's Sonny? Not even in the squad.

How many times have we seen Nonu hit a form slump you ask? Once since becoming the incumbent All Black second five, and that was amongst a shocking Hurricanes side earlier this season. How many times have we seen Sonny prove his quality outside an all star side? Never.
 

simmmo

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But Sonny is obviously not better. Nonu is playing on Saturday. And where's Sonny? Not even in the squad.

How many times have we seen Nonu hit a form slump you ask? Once since becoming the incumbent All Black second five, and that was amongst a shocking Hurricanes side earlier this season. How many times have we seen Sonny prove his quality outside an all star side? Never.
I explained why SBW missed. Sometimes it goes like that when you have an incumbent. you have to bide your time. doesn't necessarily mean the incumbent is better, just means that he's played well enuf to keep his spot. Sonny's better.
 

simmmo

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Wow what a comeback? How'd you think of that one?
Sonny played better thru out the S15, he was the best centre in the comp. how much more could he have done to show his dominance. he showed it repeatedly against the De villiers and Fourie. Nonu was the incombent. He was entitled to the first crack at the starting side. He played well enuf to keep his spot. Good on him. But Sonny's still a better palyer. it might take an injury or a form slump for Sonny to take over, but he will eventually.
 

suiker

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Sonny played better thru out the S15, he was the best centre in the comp. how much more could he have done to show his dominance. he showed it repeatedly against the De villiers and Fourie. Nonu was the incombent. He was entitled to the first crack at the starting side. He played well enuf to keep his spot. Good on him. But Sonny's still a better palyer. it might take an injury or a form slump for Sonny to take over, but he will eventually.
I think Book's point is, if you put Nonu in the Crusaders side amongst all their stars, he would've played as good and probably better than SBW.
 

simmmo

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I think Book's point is, if you put Nonu in the Crusaders side amongst all their stars, he would've played as good and probably better than SBW.
Not necessarily. If you look at the Cursaders this year, it was clear that SBW brought a completely new dimension to their play. His off loads were unstoppable at times. I don't think Nonu could have done this. Would he have made other contributions? Probably. But would he have had more impact. Probably not. That's why sonny was such a sensation this year. Lets not down play his impact just because he was in a gun side. part of the reason Canterbury was a gun side was because he was in it. Nonu has kept his test spot with some strong play. But sonny will be back.
 

Book

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I explained why SBW missed. Sometimes it goes like that when you have an incumbent. you have to bide your time. doesn't necessarily mean the incumbent is better, just means that he's played well enuf to keep his spot. Sonny's better.
SBW missed out because Nonu is better than him, it's just that simple. If you can actually put forward a credible argument to show SBW is better then you may have a point, but you can't just say he's better.

Nonu has a much better passing game, much less errors, he is even a better ball runner than SBW, which is an area you'd think SBW would be top.

Sonny played better thru out the S15, he was the best centre in the comp. how much more could he have done to show his dominance. he showed it repeatedly against the De villiers and Fourie. Nonu was the incombent. He was entitled to the first crack at the starting side. He played well enuf to keep his spot. Good on him. But Sonny's still a better palyer. it might take an injury or a form slump for Sonny to take over, but he will eventually.
He was actually probably equal top centre, the player you forgot about who was just as outstanding, if not more, was Robbie Freuan, his Crusaders centre partner. The only thing Freuan needs to be an international class centre is better defence.

Like I said, it's easy to show your dominance when you're playing outside probably the greatest first five to ever play the game as well as an international calibre side in general. The Crusaders team is stacked.

Incumbency does have some pull as well, I agree. But Nonu is the better player.
 

simmmo

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SBW missed out because Nonu is better than him, it's just that simple. If you can actually put forward a credible argument to show SBW is better then you may have a point, but you can't just say he's better.

Nonu has a much better passing game, much less errors, he is even a better ball runner than SBW, which is an area you'd think SBW would be top.



He was actually probably equal top centre, the player you forgot about who was just as outstanding, if not more, was Robbie Freuan, his Crusaders centre partner. The only thing Freuan needs to be an international class centre is better defence.

Like I said, it's easy to show your dominance when you're playing outside probably the greatest first five to ever play the game as well as an international calibre side in general. The Crusaders team is stacked.

Incumbency does have some pull as well, I agree. But Nonu is the better player.
Sonny has played without Carter there this season. Including the big win against the Stormers in Cape Town, where he set up great try with his off load. Also was impeccable in defense. All year.

Fruen was great this year too. bad luck him missing out on the AB squad. didn't even get a look in. I would have him over Kahui tbh, but that's the way it goes.

I think we'll have to disagree re Nonu v Sonny. I think Sonny's passing game is def improving. His off loads (which, after all, is still part of his passing game) is second to none. He is better defensively and more intimidating than Nonu. I think he runs better lines than Nonu (see his try against the Bulls) and is a more intelligent player as well.
 

BaYry Ward

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Respect to simmmo for making some good points in this thread. As much as it burns me I think Sonny has displayed enough to suggest he'll be an automatic selection for the AB's in the near future, should he stick with it and not run off somewhere else for the $$.

Still wouldn't piss on the bloke if he was on fire though.
 

Book

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Sonny has played without Carter there this season. Including the big win against the Stormers in Cape Town, where he set up great try with his off load. Also was impeccable in defense. All year.
The big win in Cape Town being the semi final yes? Because Carter played in that game. But even then, as I've pointed out the rest of the Crusaders side is immense, by far the best squad in the S15.

Fruen was great this year too. bad luck him missing out on the AB squad. didn't even get a look in. I would have him over Kahui tbh, but that's the way it goes.
Kahui can defend. Freuan is a terrible defender, gets bumped off very easily for a big man too. In a WC year, I think they see him as too much of a risk.

I think Sonny's passing game is def improving. His off loads (which, after all, is still part of his passing game) is second to none.
He has a great offload yeah, but distribution is a massive part of a second five's game and Nonu has a much better game in that respect.

He is better defensively and more intimidating than Nonu.
He's not really better. More intimidating, I'd even argue that's not the case.

Having a good shoulder charge does not indicate better defence. Sonny got dominated by Ben Tapuai in the S15 final.

I think he runs better lines than Nonu (see his try against the Bulls) and is a more intelligent player as well.
I don't think he does.

I am happy to agree to disagree though. The proof that Nonu is a better player is there to see in the All Black selections this season.
 
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OITENTA-E-NOVE

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Off a few articles this has been blowing up. carter and a few others ddnt travel last week. sbw has made 3 or 4 trips to south africa and london this season and his boxing would have taken some effort so this could just be his rest week. Whos to know. either way the all blacks are looking good.
 

simmmo

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The big win in Cape Town being the semi final yes? Because Carter played in that game. But even then, as I've pointed out the rest of the Crusaders side is immense, by far the best squad in the S15.



Kahui can defend. Freuan is a terrible defender, gets bumped off very easily for a big man too. In a WC year, I think they see him as too much of a risk.



He has a great offload yeah, but distribution is a massive part of a second five's game and Nonu has a much better game in that respect.



He's not really better. More intimidating, I'd even argue that's not the case.

Having a good shoulder charge does not indicate better defence. Sonny got dominated by Ben Tapuai in the S15 final.



I don't think he does.

I am happy to agree to disagree though. The proof that Nonu is a better player is there to see in the All Black selections this season.
No the big win over the Stormers was during the S15 regular season. Dan Carter was out as was McCaw. Sonny set up a counter attacking try by drawing two and putting Guildford into space. He simply outplayed De Villiers, who was regarded as the best No.12 in the comp. He also dominated the champion Bulls side without Carter as well. Scored a magnificent try running a beautiful angle from a scrum play.

We'll have to disagree on the rest. Tho how anyone can argue that Nonu is a better defender (even positionally) is beyond me. Sonny's technique is better (although he does still shoulder charge), he is stonger, he is more intimidating in defense.
 
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