Religious Discussion Thread

[Hacky McAxe]

To say they "just haven't found the explanation yet" or "they're usually not unexplainable" is really you're opinion only.
And even if they never find an explanation your get of jail card will be "they just haven't found the explanation yet", which is fine really because I wouldn't expect any other answer from someone without faith. Faith is something you either have or you don't. Just saying

But they usually do find the explanation. Every example of "Science can't explain" that I've been given is actually, "Science can't investigate"

This is the thing with scientific theories. They need to be falsifiable. Someone reporting a miracle that happened 80 years ago without evidence to support it is just an non-falsifiable hypothesis. So under scientific process it's already considered to be wrong.

There's also the other factor that there are many prizes out there for actual evidence of a miracle. Providing evidence a miracle is real wins you a lot of money. But no one ever claims the money because the miracles are either never presented, or proven false.

 

[dogwhisperer]

But they usually do find the explanation. Every example of "Science can't explain" that I've been given is actually, "Science can't investigate"

This is the thing with scientific theories. They need to be falsifiable. Someone reporting a miracle that happened 80 years ago without evidence to support it is just an non-falsifiable hypothesis. So under scientific process it's already considered to be wrong.

There's also the other factor that there are many prizes out there for actual evidence of a miracle. Providing evidence a miracle is real wins you a lot of money. But no one ever claims the money because the miracles are either never presented, or proven false.

Yes and no.

Yes there has been many false claims, yes there have been miracles proven false. I just don't think they are all false. Just my opinion.

I'd like to get your thoughts on the picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe. The original one in Mexico.

Now I know you will have an answer for it, and most likely an answer leaning towards a faithless one, which again is fine and it's expected.

Apart from the many mysterious things about it, what are your thoughts on:

1. In modern times it has been examined and no one knows how the picture was imprinted. It's not ink, nor paint nor any substances we can discover from the earth. And the picture hasn't faded in nearly 500 years.

2. The original image appeared on Juan Diego's tilma that he was wearing. Till this day that same tilma with Our lady's image on it is still hanging in the church in Mexico. That tilma or cloak of Juan Diego on which the image of Our lady has been imprinted, is a course fabric made from the threads of the maguey cactus. This fiber disintegrates within 20-60 years. But it has not disintegrated for nearly 500 years, and showing no signs that it will disintegrate.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Yes and no.

Yes there has been many false claims, yes there have been miracles proven false. I just don't think they are all false. Just my opinion.

I'd like to get your thoughts on the picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe. The original one in Mexico.

Now I know you will have an answer for it, and most likely an answer leaning towards a faithless one, which again is fine and it's expected.

Apart from the many mysterious things about it, what are your thoughts on:

1. In modern times it has been examined and no one knows how the picture was imprinted. It's not ink, nor paint nor any substances we can discover from the earth. And the picture hasn't faded in nearly 500 years.

2. The original image appeared on Juan Diego's tilma that he was wearing. Till this day that same tilma with Our lady's image on it is still hanging in the church in Mexico. That tilma or cloak of Juan Diego on which the image of Our lady has been imprinted, is a course fabric made from the threads of the maguey cactus. This fiber disintegrates within 20-60 years. But it has not disintegrated for nearly 500 years, and showing no signs that it will disintegrate.

It's a bit of a tricky one. It's true that it appears to have not faded for 500 years, and they're not sure about how it was made considering there's no under-printing or underwriting, but there's some caveats:

1. The image hasn't been fully analysed. We have modern techniques to study paintings. These techniques were used a few years back to find out that there were several other versions of Mona Lisa that were painted over. These techniques have not been used to study the painting as the custodians of the painting will not allow it. In fact the last analysis was in 1979. Over 40 years ago

2. Even without proper spectral analysis, most of the materials used have been identified, but they can't explain why the colour hasn't faded like it normally would. If they went in there with modern technology then they could learn more

 

[Realist90]

Saint Padre Pio was considered a fraud by the church initially and several medical examinations stated that his wounds were most likely self-inflicted. He was even excommunicated. He was only later canonised because of the influence he had on the followers. His "miracles" were never fully accepted as actual miracles.

People see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe. It's all part of our inherent cognitive bias, and the mind is quite easily tricked.

Ok hold up..... holllll the f up lol. Wtf is with this misinformation you’re spreading? At least give the full story and proper context. He was never excommunicated from the church that is an outright lie. What happened was he was disciplined and banned from performing mass. Why? Fellow priests were jealous of him, spread rumours to the Vatican, the pope had him disciplined but never excommunicated. Padre Pio instead of rebelling and being a victim, he accepted the disciplinary action and continued praying and being a loyal catholic. Soon after it became apparent he was no fraud and the rumours were all false and he was again allowed to perform mass duties. As for his miracles, where is your definitive proof as you insinuate that it was self done? There is plenty of articles saying the exact opposite, the articles that have your opinion in your comment are biased af atheistic approaches to the miracles which the church has indeed deemed miracles. There was never any proof of his wounds being self inflicted and this is with many many scientists invited to test. Honestly mate, at least when you post something about this, reinforce it’s your own opinion based off your own articles that have no actual proof his miracles were fake but can only say “probably” to cause doubt.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Ok hold up..... holllll the f up lol. Wtf is with this misinformation you’re spreading? At least give the full story and proper context. He was never excommunicated from the church that is an outright lie. What happened was he was disciplined and banned from performing mass. Why? Fellow priests were jealous of him, spread rumours to the Vatican, the pope had him disciplined but never excommunicated. Padre Pio instead of rebelling and being a victim, he accepted the disciplinary action and continued praying and being a loyal catholic. Soon after it became apparent he was no fraud and the rumours were all false and he was again allowed to perform mass duties. As for his miracles, where is your definitive proof as you insinuate that it was self done? There is plenty of articles saying the exact opposite, the articles that have your opinion in your comment are biased af atheistic approaches to the miracles which the church has indeed deemed miracles. There was never any proof of his wounds being self inflicted and this is with many many scientists invited to test. Honestly mate, at least when you post something about this, reinforce it’s your own opinion based off your own articles that have no actual proof his miracles were fake but can only say “probably” to cause doubt.

My understanding is that he was auto-excommunicated for practising without consent of the Church, and not addressing the claims. But that could be a mixup.

He was fully tested by several doctors, some of which noted that his wounds were likely caused by self-inflicted acid. But that's aptly ignored by many.

That's how miracles work. Convince people it's a miracle, avoid testing, if tests find its not then ignore that because it's Satan trying to trick you.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you want to claim something is a miracle then that's fine. Provide evidence. Actual evidence.

 

[south of heaven]

I was working on a flat tax proposal and accidentally proved there is no god

 

[Realist90]

My understanding is that he was auto-excommunicated for practising without consent of the Church, and not addressing the claims. But that could be a mixup.

He was fully tested by several doctors, some of which noted that his wounds were likely caused by self-inflicted acid. But that's aptly ignored by many.

That's how miracles work. Convince people it's a miracle, avoid testing, if tests find its not then ignore that because it's Satan trying to trick you.

Your understanding respectfully means nothing, it’s about facts and truth. Your understanding is a subjective and bias one.
See you post before acknowledging the facts or mentioning them lol. No he was never auto excommunicated for practising without consent.

You also just admitted not all drs said what
You insinuated in your original post that it was fake miracles.

 

[Realist90]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you want to claim something is a miracle then that's fine. Provide evidence. Actual evidence.

No amount of evidence will be enough for the faithless. Why? Coz deep down you want to always deny the truth. Let me guess the miracle of the sun in Fatima, it was just 10’s of thousands people seeing one delusional thing, even the atheists? Lol

 

[south of heaven]

Let me guess the miracle of the sun in Fatima, it was just 10’s of thousands people seeing one delusional thing,

Pretty much , close enough anyway

 

[Hacky McAxe]

No amount of evidence will be enough for the faithless. Why? Coz deep down you want to always deny the truth. Let me guess the miracle of the sun in Fatima, it was just 10’s of thousands people seeing one delusional thing, even the atheists? Lol

The Sun miracle in Fatima was never proven to be anything. At the time people raised several points including the fact that not everyone in the city saw it, no one outside the area saw it even though they were looking at the same sun, and the accounts were in line with the effect people get from staring at the sun.

No amount of evidence will ever convince a person of faith that they are wrong, because they'll only accept what they already believe.

As I said. Provide evidence, actual evidence, it's real and I'll believe it.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Across Europe an interesting disease plagued humanity. Not the plague. It was the dancing disease. People couldn't stop dancing. Many died because they literally danced themselves to death.

Was this God punishing them? Was it Satan?

Nope. Mass delusion. It happens. Because our mind is easily influenced and easily tricked.

 

[Disposable Hero]

My experience stumbling through life.
I have come to the realisation that people need something to believe in. They need this to justify thier existence well more to the point Justify.. no no come to terms with thier fear of death.

For the maths/statistical types in the kennel. Has anyone ever looked at the interaction of personality types drawn to different religions, churches,gatherings.
Even between those that believe in so called miracles.

 

[Mr 95%]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you want to claim something is a miracle then that's fine. Provide evidence. Actual evidence.

My pecker is 15 inches..it’s a freaking miracle..but I can’t show a picture as evidence because I don’t have a wide angle lens!

 

[Dogna88]

The Sun miracle in Fatima was never proven to be anything. At the time people raised several points including the fact that not everyone in the city saw it, no one outside the area saw it even though they were looking at the same sun, and the accounts were in line with the effect people get from staring at the sun.

No amount of evidence will ever convince a person of faith that they are wrong, because they'll only accept what they already believe.

As I said. Provide evidence, actual evidence, it's real and I'll believe it.

Thats the issue. Proper evidence. Hearsay is not acceptable. Or else everyone would believe you when you said you saw me turn water into scotch.

Lack of evidence is not evidence.

If a doesn't equal b. The answer isn't automatically c.

 

[wendog33]

My pecker is 15 inches..it’s a freaking miracle..but I can’t show a picture as evidence because I don’t have a wide angle lens!

Try Panoramic on your phone.

But pls warn beforehand so I can look away.

 

[Realist90]

Across Europe an interesting disease plagued humanity. Not the plague. It was the dancing disease. People couldn't stop dancing. Many died because they literally danced themselves to death.

Was this God punishing them? Was it Satan?

Nope. Mass delusion. It happens. Because our mind is easily influenced and easily tricked.

So Catholics for example are delusional but it’s not delusional to think we came from germs off an asteroid?

 

[Realist90]

The Sun miracle in Fatima was never proven to be anything. At the time people raised several points including the fact that not everyone in the city saw it, no one outside the area saw it even though they were looking at the same sun, and the accounts were in line with the effect people get from staring at the sun.

No amount of evidence will ever convince a person of faith that they are wrong, because they'll only accept what they already believe.

As I said. Provide evidence, actual evidence, it's real and I'll believe it.

Never proven to be anything? See you say you’re not anti catholic but all you do is undermine anything about it lol. And you call out people for hating gays who don’t directly say they hate them but here you are doing the same thing just against the Catholic Church. You need to stay consistent with your own standards so you don’t lose credibility and not just your typical atheist

 

[Dogna88]

My experience stumbling through life.
I have come to the realisation that people need something to believe in. They need this to justify thier existence well more to the point Justify.. no no come to terms with thier fear of death.

For the maths/statistical types in the kennel. Has anyone ever looked at the interaction of personality types drawn to different religions, churches,gatherings.
Even between those that believe in so called miracles.

And thats fine. I am fine with people who have faith.

Look at Assassin. Bloke has faith, believes in God. Most respectful, big hearted person on the kennel. I have never seen him openly call homosexuals abomination or that they have mental illnesses or unnatural.

Then you have the other guys. The arrogant, rude, entitled pricks. The "holier than thou" type.

 

[wendog33]

Can someone please explain what happened to St Christopher? Lost his feast day!