Australia day / invasion Day shit fight thread

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Dawgfather

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it's interesting that you cite a lack of education as being a key issue amongst indigenous youth and then declare the only Aboriginals with a passionate opinion on Australia Day are ones with higher education.
No I didn't.

I said that there is a correlation between where some aboriginals live and their levels of activism for charades like this.

I don't know for certain but I also think you'd find that many (or most) of these uni student activists are likely completing the equivalent of tiddlywinks at university. They are more than likely doing an arts (or similar) degree, which these days means absolutely nothing in terms of 'education'.
 

Flanagun

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Many of the 'activists' most strongly advocating for a change of date are inner city whites ashamed of their own heritage.

Of course some aboriginals advocate for it, but you'll likely find the passionate ones are mixed up with the inner city university / activist crowd.

Good luck finding some aboriginals on groote eylandt who give two shits about the date of Australia day lol.
Have you actually taken the time to visit remote Indigenous populations to ask people in those communities what their views are about Australia Day, or are you getting your intel from Andrew Bolt again? If so, post evidence, or it didn't happen. You have a track record of making things up. It's probably true that those in remote communities don't care as much about the issue as Indigenous people living in urban centres who have the day constantly shoved down their throats....does that mean the latter group is not worthy of having its voice heard?You have no interest in seeking meaningful solutions to the problems affecting many of our Indigenous communities. It is actually in your interests to maintain the status quo so you can continue your cynical game of using these issues (which are deeply tied to issues of self esteem and a loss of cultural autonomy and identity), to brow beat the wider Indigenous population in order to deny them a voice.

No I didn't.

I said that there is a correlation between where some aboriginals live and their levels of activism for charades like this.

I don't know for certain but I also think you'd find that many (or most) of these uni student activists are likely completing the equivalent of tiddlywinks at university. They are more than likely doing an arts (or similar) degree, which these days means absolutely nothing in terms of 'education'.
You're just making things up as you go, aren't you?

Just to be clear, you don't think changing the date is a worthwhile conversation to have?
Dawgfather doesn't think any conversation that involves him having to listen is worthwhile. He really puts the I in conversation.....not to mention the con. ;)
 

Dawgfather

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Have you actually taken the time to visit remote Indigenous populations to ask people in those communities what their views are about Australia, or are you getting your intel from Andrew Bolt again? If so, post evcidence, or it didn't happen. .
Yes. I've travelled quite extensively throughout country NSW, WA and NT. A little bit of country Qld, but not quite as much. If you want to know specific towns I'm happy to share them.

One anecdote which sums up what is going on in many of these places. One day, watching as a group of (i'm guessing) 11 - 15 year old aboriginal boys prowled the area and cased a ute parked outside the house I was staying. Came along, siphoned the petrol out of the car and ran. When the police started arriving (It takes a long time for police to arrive in rural communities), other members of the aboriginal community alerted the youngsters who fled on foot.

Why do you suppose 11-15 year old boys are out siphoning petrol? Aside from this they came back a few nights later and took the tyres off the car as well.

Worse than this was the eventual all out war (no exaggeration) between two aboriginal families where I was staying. This ended up in hours of street warfare with spears, rocks and knives. People were murdered and the NT police had to send reinforcements of riot police to get the situation under control.

None of this is breaking news. These stories happen nightly in rural communities. You just don't hear about it because the SMH and other 'mainstream' news sources don't publish it.

You have no interest in seeking meaningful solutions to the problems affecting many of our Indigenous communities. It is actually in your interests to maintain the status quo so you can continue your cynical game of using these issues (which are deeply tied to issues of self esteem and a loss of cultural autonomy and identity), to brow beat the wider Indigenous population in order to deny them a voice.
Of course I'm interested in meaningful solutions to problems that affect any community. Whether they be aboriginal, white, arab or otherwise. Who wouldn't? How could you be a human and not say that you want proper solutions to actual problems?


You're just making things up as you go, aren't you?
No.
 

COVENS

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No I didn't.

I said that there is a correlation between where some aboriginals live and their levels of activism for charades like this.

I don't know for certain but I also think you'd find that many (or most) of these uni student activists are likely completing the equivalent of tiddlywinks at university. They are more than likely doing an arts (or similar) degree, which these days means absolutely nothing in terms of 'education'.
Maybe I misunderstood?

Of course some aboriginals advocate for it, but you'll likely find the passionate ones are mixed up with the inner city university / activist crowd.
 

Dawgfather

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Maybe I misunderstood
Sorry, I didn't articulate it very well.

I think there is a certain group of young kids who are generally in their under grad years (although some have progressed beyond) who are filled with hate and despise Australia. This phenomena is generally confined to capital cities and particularly capital city, inner city areas (where the universities are located). They aren't sure exactly why they hate their own country, apart from hearing that aboriginals were mistreated a long time ago (which I agree is true).

And yes it's also true some people are also in favour of changing the date, and they aren't university students, and they may not even live in inner city areas. But I personally think the numbers of these people are a tiny fraction.
 

COVENS

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Sorry, I didn't articulate it very well.

I think there is a certain group of young kids who are generally in their under grad years (although some have progressed beyond) who are filled with hate and despise Australia. This phenomena is generally confined to capital cities and particularly capital city, inner city areas (where the universities are located). They aren't sure exactly why they hate their own country, apart from hearing that aboriginals were mistreated a long time ago (which I agree is true).

And yes it's also true some people are also in favour of changing the date, and they aren't university students, and they may not even live in inner city areas. But I personally think the numbers of these people are a tiny fraction.
Personally I try to ignore the white-saviour-undergrad crowd.

Anecdotally, it seems like there is enough of a groundswell from the Indigenous community to have the conversation about changing the date - which isn't the same thing as going ahead and doing it. If it turns out, they don't care then fine but if it turns out a majority do then what's the harm?
 

Dawgfather

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Personally I try to ignore the white-saviour-undergrad crowd.

Anecdotally, it seems like there is enough of a groundswell from the Indigenous community to have the conversation about changing the date - which isn't the same thing as going ahead and doing it. If it turns out, they don't care then fine but if it turns out a majority do then what's the harm?
I think (respectfully) that it's a misreading to conclude that there is a 'groundswell' within the aboriginal community. As far as I can make out, this view only exists because our mainstream news sources tell us that it is the case, and there are also some very loud activists within our inner cities who make sure we hear from them.

But as usual there is a silent majority who aren't interested in changing a date (why would anyone be interested in doing something that doesn't make a difference to their actual day to day lives)?
 

Rodzilla

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I think (respectfully) that it's a misreading to conclude that there is a 'groundswell' within the aboriginal community. As far as I can make out, this view only exists because our mainstream news sources tell us that it is the case, and there are also some very loud activists within our inner cities who make sure we hear from them.

But as usual there is a silent majority who aren't interested in changing a date (why would anyone be interested in doing something that doesn't make a difference to their actual day to day lives)?
The mainstream news sources want the people like you to get angry so they put this news into play

They are on your side
 

COVENS

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I think (respectfully) that it's a misreading to conclude that there is a 'groundswell' within the aboriginal community. As far as I can make out, this view only exists because our mainstream news sources tell us that it is the case, and there are also some very loud activists within our inner cities who make sure we hear from them.

But as usual there is a silent majority who aren't interested in changing a date (why would anyone be interested in doing something that doesn't make a difference to their actual day to day lives)?
Maybe and that's why I added anecdotally as I haven't done the macro polling - but I don't think you have either. So I return to the point, why don't we have the conversation and one way or the other be done with it and move on to more critical problems?
 

Hacky McAxe

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Maybe and that's why I added anecdotally as I haven't done the macro polling - but I don't think you have either. So I return to the point, why don't we have the conversation and one way or the other be done with it and move on to more critical problems?
Should hold a referendum but it would only be fair if only the Aboriginal community could vote on it. In which case it wouldn't be a referendum.
 

CaptainJackson

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Should hold a referendum but it would only be fair if only the Aboriginal community could vote on it. In which case it wouldn't be a referendum.
If the context of the question was something like "do you find the date of Australia day insensitive to the indigenous population" you could hold a referendum just for the indigenous
 

Dawgfather

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Maybe and that's why I added anecdotally as I haven't done the macro polling - but I don't think you have either. So I return to the point, why don't we have the conversation and one way or the other be done with it and move on to more critical problems?
I think the conversation has been had for years and years now. There have been some polls done and it is very much a minority of people who want to change the date.

On that basis I'd say we should move on rather than trying to get blood out of a stone.
 

Dawgfather

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Should hold a referendum but it would only be fair if only the Aboriginal community could vote on it. In which case it wouldn't be a referendum.
Suggesting we hold referendums on things that affect the entire nation, and then suggesting only people with one ethnicity in the country should vote on it, sounds like something out of Nazi Germany.
 

COVENS

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I think the conversation has been had for years and years now. There have been some polls done and it is very much a minority of people who want to change the date.

On that basis I'd say we should move on rather than trying to get blood out of a stone.
Are you for or against Australia becoming a Republic?
 

Dawgfather

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Are you for or against Australia becoming a Republic?
I like the idea of tradition, so I'm generally against becoming a republic.

Having said that, my opinion will only remain that way so long as the royal family remains true to themselves rather than becoming another globalist institution lecturing little people (see Prince Harry starting to lecture people on any number of social issues and see Prince Charles lecturing on global warming).
 

COVENS

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Should hold a referendum but it would only be fair if only the Aboriginal community could vote on it. In which case it wouldn't be a referendum.
I don't understand why the LNP refuse the Voice to Parliament for this reason. The onus then falls back on (what I assume would be) a mandated spokesperson/people for these topics
 

Mr 95%

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Suggesting we hold referendums on things that affect the entire nation, and then suggesting only people with one ethnicity in the country should vote on it, sounds like something out of Nazi Germany.
Heil Hacky!!
 

Flanagun

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Yes haha.
Honestly, i dont care.
This is the thing, mate. Many people do, even though the date doesn't make a shred of difference. These stubborn people are the reason many of us take issue with Australia Day. It is not the idea of a day celebrating the nation, in itself, it is the fact a large number of vocal a-holes resist the push to make it more inclusive at every turn. Let's celebrate the nation, for sure.....but let's just choose to do it on a date that everyone can get behind. Sure, there may be some who still object, but if there is no valid reason to challenge the date, these people can just be ignored and the rest of us can just get on with enjoying the day with a lot less conflict and division.
Yes. I've travelled quite extensively throughout country NSW, WA and NT. A little bit of country Qld, but not quite as much. If you want to know specific towns I'm happy to share them.

One anecdote which sums up what is going on in many of these places. One day, watching as a group of (i'm guessing) 11 - 15 year old aboriginal boys prowled the area and cased a ute parked outside the house I was staying. Came along, siphoned the petrol out of the car and ran. When the police started arriving (It takes a long time for police to arrive in rural communities), other members of the aboriginal community alerted the youngsters who fled on foot.

Why do you suppose 11-15 year old boys are out siphoning petrol? Aside from this they came back a few nights later and took the tyres off the car as well.

Worse than this was the eventual all out war (no exaggeration) between two aboriginal families where I was staying. This ended up in hours of street warfare with spears, rocks and knives. People were murdered and the NT police had to send reinforcements of riot police to get the situation under control.

None of this is breaking news. These stories happen nightly in rural communities. You just don't hear about it because the SMH and other 'mainstream' news sources don't publish it.



Of course I'm interested in meaningful solutions to problems that affect any community. Whether they be aboriginal, white, arab or otherwise. Who wouldn't? How could you be a human and not say that you want proper solutions to actual problems?




No.
I didn't just ask whether you had visited remote parts of the country. I asked whether you had made any effort to hold meaningful conversations with elders or other members of these remote Indigenous communities about the challenges they face.

Nobody (including the media) denies that these problems exist in these communities and nobody claims that conciliatory gestures such as changing the date of a national holiday will magically make these problems go away.....but I think anyone with common sense should be able to see that issues such as low self esteem and a sense of disconnection from our national identity help to perpetuate these destructive (and often self destructive) cycles...and that acknowledging this basic truth will do more good than harm. Nobody is even trying to present this as a be all, end all solution to problems which clearly run much deeper. Just another step in the process of attempting to build trust with elders and social workers in remote communities which might help us form a more cooperative approach in order to help us address these serious issues and challenges in a more meaningful way.

And please stop pretending this is an issue that affects all Aussies equally. We could change the date tomorrow and it would not negatively impact the self esteem or sense of identity of Australians in any form of meaningful way.

The only identities this issue threatens are the identities of those who want to be both patriotic and loyal to their cultural background and find it hard to reconcile these two goals based on the stubborn insistence that we continue to celebrate a day that is supposed to symbolise our unity on a date which holds deeply painful connotations for many.

If you are so confident this is just an issue that has been confected by white inner city academics, what is your opposition to a poll which is specific to Fist Nations people to determine their views on the change the date debate? If you are confident the majority of Indigenous Australians don't have an issue with the current date, what are you afraid of?
 
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