U.S. Politics - Thread

[Hacky McAxe]

During the Town Hall, Trump disowned White Supremacists but refused to disown QAnon. He also said that he will accept a peaceful transfer of power but said that he already believes the election is corrupt.

 

[Dawgfather]

No. It doesn't say that at all. I pointed this out to you already in detail and you ignored it because it didn't match your pre-conceived bias.

So the study does not say that 70 something % + 14 or so % (give or take coz I'm not looking at the study right now) had told the researchers they had 'always' or 'often' worn masks in the prior period?

 

[Hacky McAxe]

So the study does not say that 70 something % + 14 or so % (give or take coz I'm not looking at the study right now) had told the researchers they had 'always' or 'often' worn masks in the prior period?

Yes it does. But like any good researcher knows, correlation does not equal causation. That's why the study goes further and finds out the likely source of infection. That source being restaurants where the majority of the sample population were not wearing masks as you can't wear masks while eating.

This was what the data said. It's also what the researchers confirmed in their conclusion. You know, the part that scientifically illiterate people ignored.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Interestingly, CNN fact checked both Trump and Biden on false claims they made.

 

[Dawgfather]

Yes it does. But like any good researcher knows, correlation does not equal causation. That's why the study goes further and finds out the likely source of infection. That source being restaurants where the majority of the sample population were not wearing masks as you can't wear masks while eating.

This was what the data said. It's also what the researchers confirmed in their conclusion. You know, the part that scientifically illiterate people ignored.

Indeed it does not equal causation. 100% agree.

But most individuals realise that masks are being held up as some sort of super effective control against transmission of COVID (whilst it is clear they masks are not very effective).

For example: The CDC director said that masks may be more effective than any vaccine:

CDC director says face masks may offer more protection against COVID than a vaccine. Here's what other experts say.

Health experts point out that we don't yet know how effective a vaccine will be – but we do know masks help stop the spread.

www.cbsnews.com

"but I am going to comment as the CDC director that face masks, these face masks, are the most important powerful public health tool we have"

"I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against COVID than when I take a COVID vaccine, because it may be 70%. And if I don't get an immune response, the vaccine is not going to protect me,"

These statements are repeated all over the world by different governments and health bureaucrats. The problem is they fly in the face of studies such as this one which show that:

- A study was done on the benefits of masks
- More than 80% of participants caught COVID despite wearing masks

How can both be true:

1. We are told masks are REALLY important and super effective
2. A study is done where 85% of participants caught COVID despite ALWAYS or MOSTLY wearing masks.

Sure this is just one study, and it's not representative entirely of a population of 330 million people but it raises serious questions about what we are told about mask wearing and whether mask wearing has any effectiveness at all (or at least far less effectiveness than what we are commonly told).

 

[Mr 95%]

Eating popcorn enjoying the show...wearing a mask incase I get a computer virus..

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Indeed it does not equal causation. 100% agree.

But most individuals realise that masks are being held up as some sort of super effective control against transmission of COVID (whilst it is clear they masks are not very effective).

For example: The CDC director said that masks may be more effective than any vaccine:

CDC director says face masks may offer more protection against COVID than a vaccine. Here's what other experts say.

Health experts point out that we don't yet know how effective a vaccine will be – but we do know masks help stop the spread.

www.cbsnews.com

"but I am going to comment as the CDC director that face masks, these face masks, are the most important powerful public health tool we have"

"I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against COVID than when I take a COVID vaccine, because it may be 70%. And if I don't get an immune response, the vaccine is not going to protect me,"

These statements are repeated all over the world by different governments and health bureaucrats. The problem is they fly in the face of studies such as this one which show that:

- A study was done on the benefits of masks
- More than 80% of participants caught COVID despite wearing masks

How can both be true:

1. We are told masks are REALLY important and super effective
2. A study is done where 85% of participants caught COVID despite ALWAYS or MOSTLY wearing masks.

Sure this is just one study, and it's not representative entirely of a population of 330 million people but it raises serious questions about what we are told about mask wearing and whether mask wearing has any effectiveness at all (or at least far less effectiveness than what we are commonly told).

The CDC comment isn't great but probably taken out of context considering that vaccine efficacy varies.

But health authorities around the world aren't saying that masks are the be all/end all. We've already discussed this.

The advice from Australia:


To protect others you must:

• practise good hygiene
• practise physical distancing
• follow the limits for public gatherings
• understand how to isolate if you need to

(no mention of masks)

Coronavirus (COVID-19) health alert

Find out how we are monitoring and responding to the COVID-19 pandemic, how you can help stop the spread of the virus in Australia and what to do if you have symptoms. We also report the latest case numbers, official medical advice and information on treatment.

www.health.gov.au

The CDC advice has masks as part of the advice in combination with many other aspects (washing hands, social distancing, etc)

COVID-19 and Your Health

Symptoms, testing, what to do if sick, daily activities, and more.

www.cdc.gov

The CDC even provides research to support the face mask position when used in conjunction with other methods

Coronavirus Disease 2019

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

No country is saying "Just wear face masks". No one is saying that.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

I can't believe that I have to keep saying this but...

Stop getting your information from Tucker Carlson

We have this amazing thing called "The Internet". It gives you access to research. It gives you access to places like the CDC's information hub. If you think something is right or wrong, you can check. Don't trust what some half-arsed TV host told you. Just check if what you believe is actually true. It's simple.

 

[Dawgfather]

The CDC comment isn't great but probably taken out of context considering that vaccine efficacy varies.

But health authorities around the world aren't saying that masks are the be all/end all. We've already discussed this.

The advice from Australia:


To protect others you must:

• practise good hygiene
• practise physical distancing
• follow the limits for public gatherings
• understand how to isolate if you need to

(no mention of masks)

Coronavirus (COVID-19) health alert

Find out how we are monitoring and responding to the COVID-19 pandemic, how you can help stop the spread of the virus in Australia and what to do if you have symptoms. We also report the latest case numbers, official medical advice and information on treatment.

www.health.gov.au

The CDC advice has masks as part of the advice in combination with many other aspects (washing hands, social distancing, etc)

COVID-19 and Your Health

Symptoms, testing, what to do if sick, daily activities, and more.

www.cdc.gov

The CDC even provides research to support the face mask position when used in conjunction with other methods

Coronavirus Disease 2019

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

No country is saying "Just wear face masks". No one is saying that.

We need to discuss specifics.

I agree with the national guidance (good hygeine, physical distancing where possible etc).

My only issue in Australia is Victoria where you have to wear masks outdoors (despite this being the lowest risk environment for COVID.

In addition to the CDC directors bone headed comments is this real beauty from the mayor of LA:

Tweet From Governor's Office Says to Put Mask On In Between Bites

A tweet from Governor Gavin Newsom’s office urges restaurant customers to cover their faces “between bites,” but it also advises Californians to try and minimize the number of times they take off their mask at the table. Some are finding the mixed messaging to be a little confusing. Diners at...

www.nbcsandiego.com

"Going out to eat with members of your household this weekend? Don't forget to keep your mask on in between bites. Do your part to keep those around you healthy "

1. If you are with members of your own family who you are sharing a house with - why would it matter what you do with a mask when you go out to eat?
2. Anyone stupid enough to suggest its practical to wear a mask and then drop the mask between each and every bite and then put the mask back on clearly does not follow this advice himself and probably lives in a mansion with butlers and servants and definitely doesnt wear a mask while he eats.
3. If you constantly apply and re-apply your mask, then you are likely creating a higher risk of infection compared to going mask less (due to the number of times you touch your mask with dirty hands and end up touching your face as well.

 

[Dawgfather]

I can't believe that I have to keep saying this but...

Stop getting your information from Tucker Carlson

We have this amazing thing called "The Internet". It gives you access to research. It gives you access to places like the CDC's information hub. If you think something is right or wrong, you can check. Don't trust what some half-arsed TV host told you. Just check if what you believe is actually true. It's simple.

Yes, let's listen to the CDC whose director just said masks are possibly more effective than a vaccine. While studies appear to show masks are not effective in many instances of human life.

 

[Dawgfather]

What I think is safe to say is that if you are in a high risk category, then you need to take appropriate steps comensurate with the level of risk COVID presents to you. If people think that a mask might help, then they should go ahead and make the decision to wear a mask - but I think they should be presented with the current aggregate results of studies which appears to show something along the lines:

Masks may be effective in slowing COVID transmission. However, there is also evidence that masks could INCREASE your risk of COVID if you don't follow strict guidelines in terms of how you wear the mask and adjust the mask. Some studies show masks may help, others show that they have limited effectiveness - particularly in certain environments.

Do people realise that only an insanely tiny number of people who get COVID under the age of 60 actually die from it?

The figures are also low for those people above 60 (although they are more than a few percent).

If people are in the older age category, and they have existing illnesses, well then they should be isolating themselves and being careful who they come into contact with.

But if you are in your 20's, 30's or even 40's, life should continue on as normal. Be more careful about hygiene and hand washing, try to socially distance where possible (although worst case scenario if you contract the virus, the likelihood you will have any serious symptoms is extremely small). There is a strong likelihood you will not even have any symptoms or they will be so mild that you will hardly notice.

COVID is not a guaranteed death sentence (even for those in the high risk category). Even for these people there are only a small percentage of people who actually die.

 

[Dawgfather]

I can't believe that I have to keep saying this but...

Stop getting your information from Tucker Carlson

We have this amazing thing called "The Internet". It gives you access to research. It gives you access to places like the CDC's information hub. If you think something is right or wrong, you can check. Don't trust what some half-arsed TV host told you. Just check if what you believe is actually true. It's simple.

btw why do you think I'm forming my opinions based on Tucker?

I watch Tucker, but my mind doesn't get made up base on what Tucker says. He says some interesting things no doubt - but so do many other people I listen to. When I hear something interesting I go straight to the source (in this example the actual research paper). And I form my own opinion.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

Yes, let's listen to the CDC whose director just said masks are possibly more effective than a vaccine. While studies appear to show masks are not effective in many instances of human life.

Which is why the CDC provides research that supports their stances.

 

[Hacky McAxe]

btw why do you think I'm forming my opinions based on Tucker?

I watch Tucker, but my mind doesn't get made up base on what Tucker says. He says some interesting things no doubt - but so do many other people I listen to. When I hear something interesting I go straight to the source (in this example the actual research paper). And I form my own opinion.

You repeat things he says almost word for word. It does make one wonder.

 

[KambahOne]

As Trump’s language grows more heated, fears for Election Day violence rise

With polls showing the President behind Biden nationally and in key states, Trump appears to be emboldening the worst impulses of his supporters.

www.smh.com.au

The arrest of more than a dozen right-wing extremists who are accused of targeting the governors of Michigan and Virginia is only the latest example of threats of violence, in some cases egged on by President Donald Trump, that loom over the final weeks of a historically divisive race.

In rural Iowa, Laura Hubka, the Democratic chair of Howard County, recently took out a concealed-carry gun permit after signs for Democratic candidates in her region were vandalised with bullet holes and she was personally threatened, she said.

In central Wisconsin, Tom Stepanek's wife sat him down last month at the kitchen table and warned him that the President might not accept a peaceful transfer of power if he lost in November.

"Are you sure you want to be doing this?" she asked her husband, who is the chair of the Waushara County Democrats and had also been threatened.

"You're going to be a target here," she told him.

In Pennsylvania, Elizabeth Burdick, a Trump supporter who owns a gun store with her husband in red-hued Mercer County, said, "Sales have been crazy."

"People are afraid," she said. "They're afraid of what's going to happen" after the election if Joe Biden, the Democratic nominee, wins.


USA USA USA...

 

[Mr 95%]

Gee, just out of the blue, I’m starting to dislike Goats, and I don’t know why..

 

[deimus]

[https://www] The Conversation ›


How to talk someone out of a damaging cult

Linda Dubrow-Marshall December 02, 2016

Many of you will know someone who has suddenly fallen head over heels in love with someone. Some will know people who have done likewise – but for a strange religion or group that you’ve never heard of. What do you say to them? How can you help? And how do you express your concern or surprise at their change of appearance or lifestyle and their utter devotion to someone or something that, to you, seems really crazy?
It’s a question we’ve thought about a lot. We have spent decades talking to current and former members of all kinds of cults, from religious-based groups like the Branch Davidians to political groups on the far right and far left and even psychotherapy cults like the Center For Feeling Therapy. We wanted to understand the attraction of these organisations – and why they’re so hard to leave.
The first thing to realise is that people in cults are not crazy but are the same intelligent, creative and interesting individuals they were before. As with falling in love they are just crazy about the group, its amazing leader and its great potential to change the world and them with it. So the ideals of the group are probably quite attractive superficially – ending war and poverty, say, or promoting the healthy development of brain and body. After all, you don’t see many adverts saying “join this damaging cult that will destroy your life”.
[https://images] Jim Jones persuaded his followers to move to Guyana and commit suicide … not what they initially signed up for. Nancy Wong, CC BY-SA
Your friend or loved one has probably fallen hook line and sinker for the positive message of the group and their whole identity is now focused on this message. The key thing to remember is that criticising the group, however strange or damaging it seems to you, is the same as criticising your friend or family member themselves. They love the group really deeply – for all intents and purposes, they are the group.
Think back to when you fell in love for the first time and got those disapproving looks or critical comments from your parents or friends. Remember how angry that made you feel? And how determined you were to love the person all the more.
The most important piece of advice is to not criticise, condemn or judge, even if you have serious concerns. Instead, focus on why this person identifies with the group so much, and what they believe they are getting from it. And try to reinforce the message: “It’s great that you’re developing yourself and your skills so positively and that the group is making you so happy.”
It may feel cheesy, but the point of this approach is to draw on the psychological technique of motivational interviewing, so that these positive statements, similar to those the person has made themselves, will eventually lead them to question whether they are really true – we call this the “strategic and personal oriented dialogue” approach. This means you have to keep talking. Keep the dialogue going and help your loved one measure the group against their own hopes and standards. In time, the scales will start to fall from their eyes, and you can be ready for that moment.
[https://images]How it starts. Thomas Hawk, CC BY-SA
In truth, damaging cults are often run by charlatans. They offer world peace and the promised land while actually sucking people in, taking over their minds and unduly influencing them to give up their time, money, families and careers without any tangible results. Nirvana is always just around the corner, and cults coerce their members to work ever harder to get to the impossible.
Often members are made to feel unworthy and are humiliated. They can never measure up to the ideals and perfection of the leader, and bit by bit their hopes for what the group offers start to crumble. Remind them, supportively, that it’s great they’re moving forward with their life so positively in the group, and the penny will suddenly drop – “I’m actually not having a good time at all … what on earth am I doing?” Crucially, they will have come to this painful realisation themselves – with your help, but without you forcing it on them.
When what seems like the most loving group of individuals with the best ideas ever turns out to be a really big mistake, it is very hard and sometimes humiliating for cult members to admit to the outside world that they were wrong.
This is where you come in again: be there as the unconditionally loving and caring friend or family member that you really are. Where the cult judges and condemns its members, you will be there as the person who says:

Sure, it is a crazy destructive group, but I understand why you got involved. We all fall for con artists and swindlers once in a while – you still have a lot to offer and I can help you move on with your life.

After the cult, the world can seem a bleak and less exciting place. But, with the help of family and friends, the former member can build a new and more authentic life and purpose. Hang in there and you’ll be what they really do need at the end of the rainbow.
Linda and Rod Dubrow-Marshall discuss their work on cults in The Conversation’s latest podcast The Anthill 7: On belief.

Outline - Read & annotate without distractions

Outline is a free service for reading and annotating news articles. We remove the clutter so you can analyze and comment on the content.

outline.com

 

[Hacky McAxe]

As Trump’s language grows more heated, fears for Election Day violence rise

With polls showing the President behind Biden nationally and in key states, Trump appears to be emboldening the worst impulses of his supporters.

www.smh.com.au

The arrest of more than a dozen right-wing extremists who are accused of targeting the governors of Michigan and Virginia is only the latest example of threats of violence, in some cases egged on by President Donald Trump, that loom over the final weeks of a historically divisive race.

In rural Iowa, Laura Hubka, the Democratic chair of Howard County, recently took out a concealed-carry gun permit after signs for Democratic candidates in her region were vandalised with bullet holes and she was personally threatened, she said.

In central Wisconsin, Tom Stepanek's wife sat him down last month at the kitchen table and warned him that the President might not accept a peaceful transfer of power if he lost in November.

"Are you sure you want to be doing this?" she asked her husband, who is the chair of the Waushara County Democrats and had also been threatened.

"You're going to be a target here," she told him.

In Pennsylvania, Elizabeth Burdick, a Trump supporter who owns a gun store with her husband in red-hued Mercer County, said, "Sales have been crazy."

"People are afraid," she said. "They're afraid of what's going to happen" after the election if Joe Biden, the Democratic nominee, wins.


USA USA USA...

He was asked about the "peaceful transfer of power" today and his response was basically that if he loses he will accept a peaceful transfer of power if the election isn't rigged. But he followed that up by basically saying that the election is already rigged.

 

[Dawgfather]

You repeat things he says almost word for word. It does make one wonder.

If you think I'm just blindly repeating views of Tucker without making my own considerations then call out specific instances. Happy to chat through them.

I'm always open in saying that I find Tucker insightful, I find that he talks about things that other journalists won't talk about.

 

[KambahOne]

He was asked about the "peaceful transfer of power" today and his response was basically that if he loses he will accept a peaceful transfer of power if the election isn't rigged. But he followed that up by basically saying that the election is already rigged.

He's just creating excuses for when he loses as his ego will not let him believe he lost it fair and square.