21 years ago today

Hacky McAxe

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BTW, the professor pointed out that if the person is a mild conspiracy theorist who kind of believes in the conspiracy, you can sometimes get them to change their mind if you get them to question the logic. Encourage them by asking them open questions about the conspiracy that are almost philosophical, then they'll start questioning the logic themselves. The important part is that they think that they started to question the conspiracy themselves, otherwise ego kicks in and they will throw logic out the window.

Only works for mild CTs though. If someone is fully ingrained in conspiracy theory then there is no chance of changing their mind.
 

CroydonDog

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i was at the gym, which is memorable, as i've probably set foot in a gym about 20 times in my life.
 

DinkumDog

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I once sat in on a lecture from an Oxford professor that specialises in conspiracy theories and it was a very interesting talk. She pointed out that belief in conspiracy is a complex thing driven by evolution, and it doesn't matter how smart a person is. They are still susceptible to belief in conspiracy because it's part of how we develop trust and knowledge. We naturally lean on the side of belief. If we didn't then we would never learn anything. Any time a teacher or other person tried to teach you something, you would ignore it and we would never advance.

The problem is that our ego then takes over. We trust what we learn first and if we find out that this "fact" was actually fiction, then we have to accept that we made a mistake in trusting the wrong person, and believing the wrong thing. It's much easier to ignore the truth than admit that we made an error.

And it's not just base ego. It's a part of evolution. If we admit to ourselves that everything we know could be wrong, then the response becomes Solipsism and Nihilism. What's the point of going on if we can't know anything to be true? To put it simply, to admit error is to admit that your life could be pointless. This combined with the fact that Conspiracies bring purpose into people's lives. They feel special that they are different to others. And they feel that they are achieving something by fighting for their cause. They really believe they are warriors of truth, but it's actually just an urge to be something more than they are.

Of course there's a way to admit your errors and still combat Nihilism, and that is to have an impact on the world and on other's lives. That tricks your brain into thinking that you actually have purpose then you no longer need conspiracies to make you happy. You don't have to be a rocket surgeon, just do something that really helps others. That works just as well as believing in crazy Conspiracies.
Interesting. Conspiracies are unquestionably psychological and that’s what makes them so dangerous: ‘smart’ people can become entrapped and ‘dumb’ people can be so easily manipulated, even ‘robbed’. Even something as simple as buying Q-Anon merch or giving to Trump’s ‘Save The Election’ fund took in untold millions and shows that the person behind the conspiracy doesn’t even believe ‘the message’ - is only financially motivated and doesn’t care the damage they do to ‘followers’ on the way. It’s one reason I speak out against conspiracies - they’re not just ‘stupid’ - they can actually cause harm.
 

bulldogsfan_88

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I still have the images burnt into my brain. Was in year 8 at the time and mum and dad woke me and said you need to see this. Still can’t believe a terrorise attack of that enormity happened to be honest!!
 

The DoggFather

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21 years ago a whole new conspiracy industry was born and still going strong to this very day.
You know guys, sometimes things happen exactly the way they happen.
Conspiracy or not, WTC7 begs you to ask questions
 

The DoggFather

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BTW, the professor pointed out that if the person is a mild conspiracy theorist who kind of believes in the conspiracy, you can sometimes get them to change their mind if you get them to question the logic. Encourage them by asking them open questions about the conspiracy that are almost philosophical, then they'll start questioning the logic themselves. The important part is that they think that they started to question the conspiracy themselves, otherwise ego kicks in and they will throw logic out the window.

Only works for mild CTs though. If someone is fully ingrained in conspiracy theory then there is no chance of changing their mind.
I was deep into CT's when I was 14-16. But since then I still question "questionable" news but honestly I find CTs as a sort of entertainment as most would make good movies.

My main question is WTC7, made worse with what Silverstein said himself.
 

The DoggFather

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Interesting. Conspiracies are unquestionably psychological and that’s what makes them so dangerous: ‘smart’ people can become entrapped and ‘dumb’ people can be so easily manipulated, even ‘robbed’. Even something as simple as buying Q-Anon merch or giving to Trump’s ‘Save The Election’ fund took in untold millions and shows that the person behind the conspiracy doesn’t even believe ‘the message’ - is only financially motivated and doesn’t care the damage they do to ‘followers’ on the way. It’s one reason I speak out against conspiracies - they’re not just ‘stupid’ - they can actually cause harm.
CTs are just another money making scheme these days, just look at the fat man and his "supplements" lol
 

Psycho Doggie

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BTW, the professor pointed out that if the person is a mild conspiracy theorist who kind of believes in the conspiracy, you can sometimes get them to change their mind if you get them to question the logic. Encourage them by asking them open questions about the conspiracy that are almost philosophical, then they'll start questioning the logic themselves. The important part is that they think that they started to question the conspiracy themselves, otherwise ego kicks in and they will throw logic out the window.

Only works for mild CTs though. If someone is fully ingrained in conspiracy theory then there is no chance of changing their mind.
Lean into education, and also into critical thought, the ability to extend perception and apply valid logic.
 

The DoggFather

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I once sat in on a lecture from an Oxford professor that specialises in conspiracy theories and it was a very interesting talk. She pointed out that belief in conspiracy is a complex thing driven by evolution, and it doesn't matter how smart a person is. They are still susceptible to belief in conspiracy because it's part of how we develop trust and knowledge. We naturally lean on the side of belief. If we didn't then we would never learn anything. Any time a teacher or other person tried to teach you something, you would ignore it and we would never advance.

The problem is that our ego then takes over. We trust what we learn first and if we find out that this "fact" was actually fiction, then we have to accept that we made a mistake in trusting the wrong person, and believing the wrong thing. It's much easier to ignore the truth than admit that we made an error.

And it's not just base ego. It's a part of evolution. If we admit to ourselves that everything we know could be wrong, then the response becomes Solipsism and Nihilism. What's the point of going on if we can't know anything to be true? To put it simply, to admit error is to admit that your life could be pointless. This combined with the fact that Conspiracies bring purpose into people's lives. They feel special that they are different to others. And they feel that they are achieving something by fighting for their cause. They really believe they are warriors of truth, but it's actually just an urge to be something more than they are.

Of course there's a way to admit your errors and still combat Nihilism, and that is to have an impact on the world and on other's lives. That tricks your brain into thinking that you actually have purpose then you no longer need conspiracies to make you happy. You don't have to be a rocket surgeon, just do something that really helps others. That works just as well as believing in crazy Conspiracies.
When I was deep into them it was more of a trust thing than an ego thing. I wasn't the type that would go "brag" about being part of only people that knew the truth. I just knew the MSM never told us the whole truth and had agendas to run. Actually I would hardly talk about them so people wouldn't think I'm nuts lol.

Reading what I just wrote I guess I wasn't as "deep" as I thought. 9 out of 10 CTs and call bullshit on but there were a few where I thought might be plausible.
 

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My theory is that people are generally stupid pricks very much including me and definitely can not keep a secret very very much including me so shit just happens and not everything is some master plan. This is why these attacks were so memorable because a master plan actually came off for once.
 

The DoggFather

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Lean into education, and also into critical thought, the ability to extend perception and apply valid logic.
But wouldn't you agree that a lot of stuff is written off as a CT as it's easier to do that and more comfortable to do that than realise there are evil people in roles of power that lies and manipulate them?

Double edged sword the way I see it.
 

The DoggFather

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My theory is that people are generally stupid pricks very much including me and definitely can not keep a secret very very much including me so shit just happens and not everything is some master plan. This is why these attacks were so memorable because a master plan actually came off for once.
I lean towards the South Park theory that the 911 conspiracy is the conspiracy. They didn't want to admit a bunch of pissed off Muslims in a cave put Murika on show so they play along with the conspiracy to make them look "all powerful".
 

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I lean towards the South Park theory that the 911 conspiracy is the conspiracy. They didn't want to admit a bunch of pissed off Muslims in a cave put Murika on show so they play along with the conspiracy to make them look "all powerful".
Yep can’t disagree with that it’s was abhorrent and atrocious what they did but impressive none the less. No one can deny that.
 

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Conspiracy or not, WTC7 begs you to ask questions
It did, but then I heard Tim Brown speak, ex-FDNY, who worked in the OEM in WTC7, who was there and survived when most of his mates died. Pretty full on if you’ve got the 2 hours to listen to it:


I’ve heard all the ‘real estate fire sale’ and ‘Zionist’ theories but none of them were ever proven either.
 

The DoggFather

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It did, but then I heard Tim Brown speak, ex-FDNY, who worked in the OEM in WTC7, who was there and survived when most of his mates died. Pretty full on if you’ve got the 2 hours to listen to it:


I’ve heard all the ‘real estate fire sale’ and ‘Zionist’ theories but none of them were ever proven either.
What's the synopsis of the vid bro? Have you watched it?
 

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What's the synopsis of the vid bro? Have you watched it?
Yeah I have. You don’t need to watch, just listen so you can do it mowing the lawn like I did (I recommend noise canceling headphones though :-)).

Pretty interesting and quite harrowing how he describes people getting burned alive in lift shafts and the last time he sees his mates before they were killed etc, including one of his mates missus finding out she was pregnant with their first child on 12 SEP, who is now 19 and never knew her father.

He details his experience from being in WTC7 when the first plane hit to being in the lobbies of WTC1 and 2 and finally WTC3 and how he survived when many of his mates didn’t. He talks about how WTC7 was severely damaged by the WTC1 collapse but there’s little footage of the south side of it because cameras couldn’t get close to Ground Zero by then. He flatly says: ‘I was there, I know what happened, so come at me with your CT’s and I’ll crush them with facts’.

He seems pretty sincere and authentic so if he’a not straight up then give him a Best Actor Oscar.
 

Hacky McAxe

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I was deep into CT's when I was 14-16. But since then I still question "questionable" news but honestly I find CTs as a sort of entertainment as most would make good movies.

My main question is WTC7, made worse with what Silverstein said himself.
Yep. Always good to look at it from a skeptical point of view. I always go with a skeptical and logical stance. Don't necessarily trust what you're told, but lean toward Occam's Razor. The story we're told isn't necessarily the truth, but if it seems more logical and more simple, then it's probably the truth.

Take WTC7 as an example. CTs like to say, "There's no way it could have collapsed, it wasn't hit". Simulations show large amounts of burning debris hitting it. Eye witness reports state that the building burned for 7 hours before it collapsed. Logic dictates that fires weakened the structure then it just buckled. That's the more logical explanation.

The alternative is that it was a controlled demolition, but they targeted the two main towers, and one of the smaller towers, and left the other towers alone knowing full well that it would raise questions. Just doesn't seem very logical.
 
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