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The DoggFather

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A bit off track but @Hacky McAxe I'd love for you to read Revelation one day and compare it to these days.

Would love to hear your take on things and I'm sure you will see where real Christians hearts and minds are at.

PS a lot of symbolism and a bloke from 2000 years ago trying to describe modern day technology, but you're switched on and I think you will pick up about 80% of what John was trying to describe.

PPS if you do read it one day, let me know if you find the part when John tries to describe attack choppers, very impressive way to describe todays technology 2000 years ago.
 

The DoggFather

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But that more enhances the point that I don't think it was intended to offend. Why would a guy begging for money, deliberately piss people off ensuring that he won't get that money?
Short answer is arrogance. Plus the pissed off people don't and never matter. The false prophet aka the pope and his owners only matter and they are just playing their part in this show.

Long answer is too long and deep to bore you with on here, plus it might piss off rusted on Catholics.
 

The DoggFather

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Can't really agree with the Pope part. You know I'm not a fan of him, but he has been constantly demanding an end to the war, and he has blamed Ukraine, US and others for their part in it.


But agree with your last paragraph. As I said, it's all propaganda. It's part of War. Whether it's Russian bots trying to convince you that their invasion was justified, or Zelensky trying to convince people that Ukraine have done no wrong. It's all propaganda.
Even with my Russian blood I still put putin in the same basket as zelensky. Fkn pawns playing their part killing innocent people.
 

Hacky McAxe

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A bit off track but @Hacky McAxe I'd love for you to read Revelation one day and compare it to these days.

Would love to hear your take on things and I'm sure you will see where real Christians hearts and minds are at.

PS a lot of symbolism and a bloke from 2000 years ago trying to describe modern day technology, but you're switched on and I think you will pick up about 80% of what John was trying to describe.

PPS if you do read it one day, let me know if you find the part when John tries to describe attack choppers, very impressive way to describe todays technology 2000 years ago.
I think I read the entire New Testament about 10 times. But I haven't read it for over 20 years so I should give it a good read again.

I always find it kind of tricky when it comes to predictions. There's always different ways to interpret them depending what you want to believe. But I do find it interesting when ancient texts describe things we see today. There's similar stuff in the ancient Assyrian/Sumerian texts (pre-Biblical), the Meso-American and Egyptian hieroglyphs, and even the Bhagavad gita (Hindu) stories.

I still think it's down to coincidence and interpretation of vague concepts, but it's still interesting that it could be something else.
 

The DoggFather

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I think I read the entire New Testament about 10 times. But I haven't read it for over 20 years so I should give it a good read again.

I always find it kind of tricky when it comes to predictions. There's always different ways to interpret them depending what you want to believe. But I do find it interesting when ancient texts describe things we see today. There's similar stuff in the ancient Assyrian/Sumerian texts (pre-Biblical), the Meso-American and Egyptian hieroglyphs, and even the Bhagavad gita (Hindu) stories.

I still think it's down to coincidence and interpretation of vague concepts, but it's still interesting that it could be something else.
Of course they are open to interpretation but some stuff are real head scratchers that make you think WTF?

Saying that there have been stupid and straight out misinformation/misdirection trying to be spun IE some fruitcakes claiming the vax is the mark of the beast, even though it's not in the right hand or forhead or even simpler, the beast is not even in power for him to have his mark.

If you want to label the vax anything, it would be at best, a precursor, or a test run for the future. There are many reasons not to take/trust the vax experiment, you don't need to scare people using their faith to stop them taking it.
 

Grunthos

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The Dough Anthony Allstars and Flaco.
As the good lord intended.
 

wendog33

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Four Corners last night on the plight of child sexual abuse survivors. Detailing the actions of Catholic Church, Geelong Grammar and Scouts Australia using Permanent Stays to avoid fair compensation.

It makes you wonder if any Religious, or otherwise, tax free Institution has any humanity or morals at all.

 
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dogwhisperer

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To have a christ that must be called down, manipulated at will, and eaten alive at the discretion of the priests for the salvation of its people, is a mockery of Christ's finished work at the Cross.

To align with such doctrine is dangerous at the very least for anyone who believes Christ's work was complete through his death and resurrection.
Let's take a look at the bible to see if the Eucharist is a mockery of Christ's finished work on the Cross.

“‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” (John 6:51–52).

Jesus again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (John 6:53–56).

Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct “misunderstandings,” for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically as originally thought but literally, that's why in the following verses his disciples could not listen to it anymore and walked away:

In John 6:60 we read: “Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’” (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) “After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him” (John 6:66).

This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out? Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically.

But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have “to eat my flesh and drink my blood.”

The Greek word used for “eats” (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of “chewing” or “gnawing.” This is not the language of metaphor.

Let's see what St Paul says in the bible:
“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor. 10:16).

St Paul goes on to say in the bible:
“Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Cor. 11:27, 29).

“To answer for the body and blood” of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine “unworthily” be so serious? St Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ.


Now let's look at what the early Christians believed about the Eucharist:

* St Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to “those who hold heterodox opinions,” that “they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again” (6:2, 7:1).

* Forty years later, St Justin Martyr, wrote, “Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66:1–20).

* Origen, in a homily written about A.D. 244, attested to belief in the Real Presence. “You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received the Body of the Lord, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish” (Homilies on Exodus 13:3).


The early church took John 6 literally, it was Unanimous. There is no record from the early centuries in which the literal interpretation is opposed. For the first 1500 years of Christianity ALL Christians believed the Eucharist to be the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, until the protestant reformation in 1517AD it then began to change.

So I ask myself the question: I have the bible which is clear on the real presence of Christ in communion, I also have access to what the very early Christians believed about the Eucharist in the 1st, 2nd & 3rd centuries. Am I going to Listen to Jesus' words in the bible and reaffirmed by the early Christians OR am I going to believe a guy called Caveman who rejects the Eucharist in the year 2023? It's a no brainer for me TBH.
 

The DoggFather

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Let's take a look at the bible to see if the Eucharist is a mockery of Christ's finished work on the Cross.

“‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” (John 6:51–52).

Jesus again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (John 6:53–56).

Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct “misunderstandings,” for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically as originally thought but literally, that's why in the following verses his disciples could not listen to it anymore and walked away:

In John 6:60 we read: “Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’” (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) “After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him” (John 6:66).

This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out? Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically.

But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have “to eat my flesh and drink my blood.”

The Greek word used for “eats” (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of “chewing” or “gnawing.” This is not the language of metaphor.

Let's see what St Paul says in the bible:
“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor. 10:16).

St Paul goes on to say in the bible:
“Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Cor. 11:27, 29).

“To answer for the body and blood” of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine “unworthily” be so serious? St Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ.


Now let's look at what the early Christians believed about the Eucharist:

* St Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to “those who hold heterodox opinions,” that “they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again” (6:2, 7:1).

* Forty years later, St Justin Martyr, wrote, “Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66:1–20).

* Origen, in a homily written about A.D. 244, attested to belief in the Real Presence. “You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received the Body of the Lord, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish” (Homilies on Exodus 13:3).


The early church took John 6 literally, it was Unanimous. There is no record from the early centuries in which the literal interpretation is opposed. For the first 1500 years of Christianity ALL Christians believed the Eucharist to be the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, until the protestant reformation in 1517AD it then began to change.

So I ask myself the question: I have the bible which is clear on the real presence of Christ in communion, I also have access to what the very early Christians believed about the Eucharist in the 1st, 2nd & 3rd centuries. Am I going to Listen to Jesus' words in the bible and reaffirmed by the early Christians OR am I going to believe a guy called Caveman who rejects the Eucharist in the year 2023? It's a no brainer for me TBH.
To simplify it, Jesus Himself said "do this in memory of Me".

That's more than enough for me...
 

Grunthos

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Four Corners last night on the plight of child sexual abuse survivors. Detailing the actions of Catholic Church, Geelong Grammar and Scouts Australia using Permanent Stays to avoid fair compensation.

It makes you wonder if any Religious, or otherwise, tax free Institution has any humanity or morals at all.

"The church is terribly sorry about our sins of the past but we should now be looking forward"
(To enjoy our sins of the future...)
 

N4TE

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I don’t know where you would even get a Bible from let alone read it. Rack it from a hotel room?
 

dogwhisperer

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To simplify it, Jesus Himself said "do this in memory of Me".

That's more than enough for me...
100%.

“Do this in remembrance of me” (Touto poieite tan eman anamnasin; Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24–25) can also be translated as “Offer this as my memorial sacrifice.” The Greek term for “remembrance” is anamnesis, and every time it occurs in the Bible it occurs in a sacrificial context.

In the Mass we do not re-crucify Christ, Jesus does not suffer and die again in a bloody manner, but it is the re-presentation of that one sacrifice of Jesus in Calvary. Since God is not limited by time or space, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross becomes an eternal sacrifice, it didn't just happen 2000 years ago(remembering God is not limited to time), but it is happening now, tomorrow, next week and in 100 years time. It is a continuing fountain for us as Christians to draw from. There is no form of prayer greater than lifting up the body of Jesus and presenting this to the Father saying "Lord, remember your son's passion on the cross for our sins!"

Now I know you love the book of Revelation. Here's one for you:

Rev 5:6 "Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth."

Which Lamb do you think the apostle John is talking about? There is only one lamb of God that stands at the throne. And I don't have to tell you the number 7 is God's perfect number(hence seven horn's etc). And why does John see Jesus(the Lamb) as still slain? Because Jesus forever intercedes for us to the Father(Hebrews 7:25) through His passion, crucifixion and resurrection! Why can't we draw from that on a daily basis if required at the Mass?
 

The DoggFather

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I don’t know where you would even get a Bible from let alone read it. Rack it from a hotel room?
I have many old ones and some from overseas, but my go to is Bible apps on your phone.

I found a good KJV one I use all the time.
 

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Four Corners last night on the plight of child sexual abuse survivors. Detailing the actions of Catholic Church, Geelong Grammar and Scouts Australia using Permanent Stays to avoid fair compensation.

It makes you wonder if any Religious, or otherwise, tax free Institution has any humanity or morals at all.

Now u know I'm all in on the pedo bashing bandwagon but 2/3rds of this story was taken out of context. The first two cases the accused had passed away so how can there be a fair trial.

The third, the accused is already in prison for a long time and the case was against Scouts in which case the enablers were accused. They are all dead. In this instance, costs were found against the complainant and the pedo was viewed as unreliable as he would only testify for reductions or benefits in his prison time.

So this is half the problem. These people die before being held to account.

So the story here is less about the stays and more about the burden of proof. And that is leaning more to the victim these days.

U wanna hookup with someone at the local, get a sexual consent app. Guessing its a buzz killer - but so is prison.
 

wendog33

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Now u know I'm all in on the pedo bashing bandwagon but 2/3rds of this story was taken out of context. The first two cases the accused had passed away so how can there be a fair trial.

The third, the accused is already in prison for a long time and the case was against Scouts in which case the enablers were accused. They are all dead. In this instance, costs were found against the complainant and the pedo was viewed as unreliable as he would only testify for reductions or benefits in his prison time.

So this is half the problem. These people die before being held to account.

So the story here is less about the stays and more about the burden of proof. And that is leaning more to the victim these days.

U wanna hookup with someone at the local, get a sexual consent app. Guessing its a buzz killer - but so is prison.
Not looking to get into any hassles Doogie. Just forwarding on the 4 Corners expose. There's quite a lot of learned legal minds buying in on Twitter to try and get the system changed and thanking Milligan and ABC for highlighting the problem for historical child sexual assault victims.
 

Doogie

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Not looking to get into any hassles Doogie. Just forwarding on the 4 Corners expose. There's quite a lot of learned legal minds buying in on Twitter to try and get the system changed and thanking Milligan and ABC for highlighting the problem for historical child sexual assault victims.
Lol - I don't cause hassles - I just finish them :tearsofjoy:

A system changed to what? The employer is automatically argued to have enabled, especially if they cannot defend themselves? This was a 60mins puff piece. The poor dude at the end no doubt was advised he could have costs awarded against but someone advised him his case was solid - when it obviously wasn't. And pretty obviously wasn't at that if the law needed changing. So he loses his house.

Now there's a 60 min story for you.
 

Hacky McAxe

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Let's take a look at the bible to see if the Eucharist is a mockery of Christ's finished work on the Cross.

“‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” (John 6:51–52).

Jesus again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (John 6:53–56).

Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct “misunderstandings,” for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically as originally thought but literally, that's why in the following verses his disciples could not listen to it anymore and walked away:

In John 6:60 we read: “Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’” (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) “After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him” (John 6:66).

This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out? Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically.

But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have “to eat my flesh and drink my blood.”

The Greek word used for “eats” (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of “chewing” or “gnawing.” This is not the language of metaphor.

Let's see what St Paul says in the bible:
“The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor. 10:16).

St Paul goes on to say in the bible:
“Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Cor. 11:27, 29).

“To answer for the body and blood” of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine “unworthily” be so serious? St Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ.


Now let's look at what the early Christians believed about the Eucharist:

* St Ignatius of Antioch, who had been a disciple of the apostle John and who wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans about A.D. 110, said, referring to “those who hold heterodox opinions,” that “they abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again” (6:2, 7:1).

* Forty years later, St Justin Martyr, wrote, “Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66:1–20).

* Origen, in a homily written about A.D. 244, attested to belief in the Real Presence. “You are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries, so you know how, when you have received the Body of the Lord, you reverently exercise every care lest a particle of it fall and lest anything of the consecrated gift perish” (Homilies on Exodus 13:3).


The early church took John 6 literally, it was Unanimous. There is no record from the early centuries in which the literal interpretation is opposed. For the first 1500 years of Christianity ALL Christians believed the Eucharist to be the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, until the protestant reformation in 1517AD it then began to change.

So I ask myself the question: I have the bible which is clear on the real presence of Christ in communion, I also have access to what the very early Christians believed about the Eucharist in the 1st, 2nd & 3rd centuries. Am I going to Listen to Jesus' words in the bible and reaffirmed by the early Christians OR am I going to believe a guy called Caveman who rejects the Eucharist in the year 2023? It's a no brainer for me TBH.
To me it kind of reads like Jesus saying that you must eat his flesh and blood to enter Heaven, then his followers (later) saying, "He couldn't possibly mean his actual flesh. I mean, he's gone. We can't get his flesh any more. I know, he must have meant that we treat bread as his actual flesh"

Or maybe that's what he meant.

But this is the kind of thing that makes me think that if Jesus existed as the son of God made flesh, maybe none of the Christian interpretations are correct. At least, there's enough doubt to be critical of any denomination that says that their interpretation is 100% true.

I have heard some interesting interpretations from Theologians that believe that everything in the Bible, including Revelations, was intended for the near future. Within 40 years of the time the books were written. And it was based heavily on the political landscape of the time. Many Theologians believe that the Anti-Christ was Nero, and Revelation was about Nero returning in the near future.
 

Hacky McAxe

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I shouldn't speak about interpretations too much though as my interpretation is hated by almost all Christians. My belief is that if the Abrahamic God exists, he likely chose a hands off approach and stopped intervening in human lives long ago. And he likely isn't this all loving, omnipotent being that cares about humans.

But that all comes down to my human interpretations of a God. For example, I look at an apparently all loving creator that slaughters millions because he isn't happy, an all powerful being that deliberately created evil and punished people for what he made them do. These kind of things I find hard to comprehend. But human trying to comprehend a being beyond our understanding is never going to end well.
 
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