Wait for 2021....

NPC83

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Brown was still one of the worst coaches in the NRL. He also has a worse win % than Pay and that includes one year with a competitive roster (he had Ponga and Pearce for two seasons too). Last year he finished on the same points as us. Unacceptable considering what we're going through. That's also why he got sacked (as well as losing the dressing room).
That’s actually not the argument. The argument is.. is Pay stopping potential recruits coming to the club cause they don’t want to play under a rookie coach? Now there is no real evidence to say that so true but you still can’t compare him to Brown who helped Newcastle recruit well. Pull whatever stats you want out Brown had coached NRL and ESL
Before and had some success. Once again he was not a rookie coach.

Prior to Newcastle his winning percentage in the NRL was better than what Pays is now. It was only after a few dour seasons at Newcastle it got worse.
 
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bradyk

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That’s actually not the argument. The argument is.. is Pay stopping potential recruits coming to the club cause they don’t want to play under a rookie coach? Now there is no real evidence to say that so true but you still can’t compare him to Brown who helped Newcastle recruit well. Pull whatever stats you want out Brown had coached NRL and ESL
Before and had some success. Once again he was not a rookie coach.
I find it hard to judge Pay on recruitment when it's more likely than not that he doesn't have a say and there have been reports Pay's wanted X player and hasn't been able to get them due to the board/recruitment team (e.g. Reynolds). Also our proper recruitment (Knights 2018) is for next year and we haven't seen who we're able to recruit yet. Win % wise Pay's a better coach during his time at the Bulldogs than Brown was at the Knights and we've been playing under conditions that no other NRL team has probably gone through before (at least to the same extent). I don't really buy the argument and it's more of a money issue. I'm putting recruitment solely on the board if we F it up personally.
 
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NPC83

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I find it hard to judge Pay on recruitment when it's more likely than not that he doesn't have a say and there have been reports Pay's wanted X player and hasn't been able to get them due to the board/recruitment team (e.g. Reynolds). Also our proper recruitment (Knights 2018) is for next year and we haven't seen who we're able to recruit yet. Win % wise Pay's a better coach during his time at the Bulldogs than Brown was at the Knights and we've been playing under conditions that no other NRL team has probably gone through before (at least to the same extent). I don't really buy the argument and it's more of a money issue. I'm putting recruitment solely on the board if we F it up personally.
Yeah and that’s a concern in itself if the coach wants certain players and is told he can’t have them. He’s coaching the side he should have a big say. And I agree he has been working pretty hard under constraints but you got to judge the coach on are the players playing better? Not actually winning games but are individuals getting better? The wins will eventually come if you keep improving. Besides the late flurries last year I am not sure we are yet.
 

Family Guy

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Yeah and that’s a concern in itself if the coach wants certain players and is told he can’t have them. He’s coaching the side he should have a big say. And I agree he has been working pretty hard under constraints but you got to judge the coach on are the players playing better? Not actually winning games but are individuals getting better? The wins will eventually come if you keep improving. Besides the late flurries last year I am not sure we are yet.
If Pay cant get the players he wants that seems to suggest he wont be the coach next year because if they truly backed the coach they would give him everything he needs (including good assistants and a halves coach)
 

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I still can’t believe that every player off contract and on our “hit list” is looking past us to the point where even bigger $$$ offers aren’t enough to away them. Cotric is reportedly re-signing for $600k after we offered $750k and Bateman has accepted $2mill over 4 years after we offered $800k Harry Grant was offered $300k before he even made his first Grade appearance and wasn’t interested .. I know and understand that some of these figures may be off but that’s what is in print so I’m just going from them.

it’s scary times tbh and I don’t see this “fix” happening for along time fo come.
 

bradyk

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I still can’t believe that every player off contract and on our “hit list” is looking past us to the point where even bigger $$$ offers aren’t enough to away them. Cotric is reportedly re-signing for $600k after we offered $750k and Bateman has accepted $2mill over 4 years after we offered $800k Harry Grant was offered $300k before he even made his first Grade appearance and wasn’t interested .. I know and understand that some of these figures may be off but that’s what is in print so I’m just going from them.

it’s scary times tbh and I don’t see this “fix” happening for along time fo come.
How do you know we offered 750k for Cotric? All reports I've seen have shown 600k. Bateman obviously wanted to go back home to his family/is home sick if he's accepting that contract. I'm more concerened with what we offered Grant before he re-signed with the Storm last year/start of this year, I think anything around the 500k mark would of been fair (I know people on these forums were suggesting less at least). No report regarding that amount anyways.
 

2144superman

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How do you know we offered 750k for Cotric? All reports I've seen have shown 600k. Bateman obviously wanted to go back home to his family/is home sick if he's accepting that contract. I'm more concerened with what we offered Grant before he re-signed with the Storm last year/start of this year, I think anything around the 500k mark would of been fair (I know people on these forums were suggesting less at least). No report regarding that amount anyways.
0B0E95B3-BCF6-494C-88BC-3F7AE4A6A745.jpeg


https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/s...d/news-story/5a5e3de4046c19178e55bb3a73e87f92
 

2144superman

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Parramatta let Penrith keep Mansour, but got Waqa, RCG and Sivo;
Parramatta let Manly have TRex back but got Lane, Gutho and Gower;
Parramatta let the Tigers get Twal but then nabbed Matterson and Moses and THEN they swindled the Dragons by trading them Corey Norman for ... Jai Field?


That’s how it’s done ... THATS HOW
 

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750k for a winger/centre? Surely not. I highly doubt that's true. That would be madness.
 

wendog33

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Parramatta let Penrith keep Mansour, but got Waqa, RCG and Sivo;
Parramatta let Manly have TRex back but got Lane, Gutho and Gower;
Parramatta let the Tigers get Twal but then nabbed Matterson and Moses and THEN they swindled the Dragons by trading them Corey Norman for ... Jai Field?


That’s how it’s done ... THATS HOW
Geez do you have to show us up that bad!

Maybe it's all in the pipeline for something like that for the Bulldogs *crossfingers* *wingandaprayer*

Still 5? months till next preseason starts.
 

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Quite simply they need the following:

1) A top coach who will be able to attract players and put the right pathways in place for juniors. Nothing personal against Pay but he won't attract any top players regardless of our warchest or keep potential superstars either. (This approach would have worked well with Des if they simply didn't let him control the cap, recruitment and retention via the other two idiots.

2) A top level organising half - the first signing and we will have to pay big big overs for this guy to then get others to follow. It will be a big spend and 3rd parties will need to be in place.

3) Two more vey good players preferably both in the spine - at a minimum one in the spine and another in a key position, once again paying very well but does not need to be as big overs as signing 2.

If we achieve these 3 signing steps then we will have enough in our current roster and can also sign good youngsters for forward reinforcements and speed in the backs.

Not easy but it's the only way we will emerge strongly out of this. Even if we had a gun young junior half now, they would simply get pinched by another team once they were good enough, so that's not an option currently worth holding out to achieve.
 

Alan79

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Speculation isn't proof. A few journos readily admit that it's very difficult to get information from the Bulldogs with regards to recruitment. If speculation was proof, my plan to breed and sell loch Ness monsters wouldn't have seen me go bankrupt.

Realistically speaking, we know bugger all about who we're chasing and what we're offering and for the media to say that the 750k is speculation is an admittance that they're just guessing.
 

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The goals of the board in their original election campaign were to reinvigorate our junior production line to give us a better framework for ongoing success long term. Our previous board let our lower grades become an afterthought and it meant we had to rely on paying overs for every player worth a pinch of shit. Seems like their main long term goal and we're seeing guys like Averillo, to'omaga, Wakeham starting to become regulars so you could argue that in a small way we're seeing results on this goal.

Secondly they said they were going to sacrifice short term results to fast track a rebuild. Next year and the year after should really show whether that goal is met.

Some of our recruitment has been good. CHN and DWZ were both coups. Unfortunately one of those signings went to shit with off field rubbish. The recruits for this year weren't anything exciting with Britt, Stimson and Katoa only being players on the cusp of regular NRL selection in their old teams. But Thompson is definitely a quality signing. It's too soon to judge the rest of our recruitment drive for next year. People are currently judging the results of a marathon based on the first hundred metres. I'm concerned about it, but realistically I know that there's a good chance that we're in for some good news in the intermediate future. It may not all turn out as well as we hope. But it's too early to make that judgement.

My hopes for next year are that between signing another couple of quality players and that some of our youngsters successfully find their groove, that we go from being a team considered among spoon contenders, to a dark horse for the finals. One or two more good signings can make a hell of a difference.

I have no inside information about our targets. But I do have faith that the board is working on getting the best out of our available cap space.
 

NPC83

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The goals of the board in their original election campaign were to reinvigorate our junior production line to give us a better framework for ongoing success long term. Our previous board let our lower grades become an afterthought and it meant we had to rely on paying overs for every player worth a pinch of shit. Seems like their main long term goal and we're seeing guys like Averillo, to'omaga, Wakeham starting to become regulars so you could argue that in a small way we're seeing results on this goal.

Secondly they said they were going to sacrifice short term results to fast track a rebuild. Next year and the year after should really show whether that goal is met.

Some of our recruitment has been good. CHN and DWZ were both coups. Unfortunately one of those signings went to shit with off field rubbish. The recruits for this year weren't anything exciting with Britt, Stimson and Katoa only being players on the cusp of regular NRL selection in their old teams. But Thompson is definitely a quality signing. It's too soon to judge the rest of our recruitment drive for next year. People are currently judging the results of a marathon based on the first hundred metres. I'm concerned about it, but realistically I know that there's a good chance that we're in for some good news in the intermediate future. It may not all turn out as well as we hope. But it's too early to make that judgement.

My hopes for next year are that between signing another couple of quality players and that some of our youngsters successfully find their groove, that we go from being a team considered among spoon contenders, to a dark horse for the finals. One or two more good signings can make a hell of a difference.

I have no inside information about our targets. But I do have faith that the board is working on getting the best out of our available cap space.
Hey mate, nice positive post.. and I’m not going to argue with you.. I think the junior development is a massive leap forward as all good clubs have junior talent coming through... even the roosters with their small junior base have current juniors playing a big role in first grade. This is fundamental to success.

I think most will agree though with the cap space available the dominos should have slowly started to fall by now. Thompson was a great coup even if he is on overs it’s what was needed to be done to get him. The concern most would have is we seemly keep missing our targets. For whatever reason that may be we can all speculate but the reality is we should have signed at least one more top notch player by now for 2021. And you know what maybe we have and we fans don’t know it yet. Certainly doesn’t seem like it though and the window for 2021 is closing.
 

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Hey mate, nice positive post.. and I’m not going to argue with you.. I think the junior development is a massive leap forward as all good clubs have junior talent coming through... even the roosters with their small junior base have current juniors playing a big role in first grade. This is fundamental to success.

I think most will agree though with the cap space available the dominos should have slowly started to fall by now. Thompson was a great coup even if he is on overs it’s what was needed to be done to get him. The concern most would have is we seemly keep missing our targets. For whatever reason that may be we can all speculate but the reality is we should have signed at least one more top notch player by now for 2021. And you know what maybe we have and we fans don’t know it yet. Certainly doesn’t seem like it though and the window for 2021 is closing.
It is concerning that the club, despite apparently having cap space for 2021 doesnt seem to have much success in signings - re Juniors its much more than the players from local clubs - it is also about identifying / recruiting / developing players from about 14 n 15 year old - regardless of where they play their junior league. Roosters n Storm do it well - neither have large numbers in the junior leagues but they successfully entice the talent from any area it exists.
 

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Hey mate, nice positive post.. and I’m not going to argue with you.. I think the junior development is a massive leap forward as all good clubs have junior talent coming through... even the roosters with their small junior base have current juniors playing a big role in first grade. This is fundamental to success.

I think most will agree though with the cap space available the dominos should have slowly started to fall by now. Thompson was a great coup even if he is on overs it’s what was needed to be done to get him. The concern most would have is we seemly keep missing our targets. For whatever reason that may be we can all speculate but the reality is we should have signed at least one more top notch player by now for 2021. And you know what maybe we have and we fans don’t know it yet. Certainly doesn’t seem like it though and the window for 2021 is closing.
Very few people actually know who our targets are with any certainty. So it's a big assumption that we're missing the bulk of them. The media is probably linking us with more players than we're chasing because they know we're definitely looking to make a few more signings than many other clubs.

People tend to have blindfolds for who they think qualifies as a top notch player though. Curtis Rona came to the club with little fanfare and only a few supporters thinking he was any good. Countless other gems are hidden behind coaches first choices at every club. And for all we know we're lining up some talent from the UK competition as well. I wouldn't put it past Hill or Anderson to have met with a few potential recruits when they went to England.

I sit somewhere between optimism and pessimism right now. Everyone has their own point of view about our recruitment drive. But just because a few big names are already signed, it doesn't mean that all the talent is locked up. In a way I'll be pretty proud of the club if we recruit hidden gems and make them shine rather than picking up a few stars that don't look quite as good if they join a less talent packed team. The recruitment drive we went through when Kevin Moore took over didn't excite me, but the team he put together had a huge year.

At the end of the day I'm just going to hold my judgement about our recruitment drive until it's done. And even if it lacks established stars we might wind up pleasantly surprised.
 

Alan79

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It is concerning that the club, despite apparently having cap space for 2021 doesnt seem to have much success in signings - re Juniors its much more than the players from local clubs - it is also about identifying / recruiting / developing players from about 14 n 15 year old - regardless of where they play their junior league. Roosters n Storm do it well - neither have large numbers in the junior leagues but they successfully entice the talent from any area it exists.
We've picked up guys like Schoup and Biondo Odo recently. So we're actively seeking to improve the quality in our lower grades. But these types of signings won't have immediate visible results. And with 14 and 15 year olds even longer. It's reassuring to know that the club recognise that we need a foundation of strong juniors at least.

With the country areas we're sponsoring, they're not immediately bringing players to the club either. They said that they'll let some of our juniors finish school at home before bringing them to the club. It'll be interesting to see how the strategy unfolds over the next few years.
 

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Very few people actually know who our targets are with any certainty. So it's a big assumption that we're missing the bulk of them. The media is probably linking us with more players than we're chasing because they know we're definitely looking to make a few more signings than many other clubs.

People tend to have blindfolds for who they think qualifies as a top notch player though. Curtis Rona came to the club with little fanfare and only a few supporters thinking he was any good. Countless other gems are hidden behind coaches first choices at every club. And for all we know we're lining up some talent from the UK competition as well. I wouldn't put it past Hill or Anderson to have met with a few potential recruits when they went to England.

I sit somewhere between optimism and pessimism right now. Everyone has their own point of view about our recruitment drive. But just because a few big names are already signed, it doesn't mean that all the talent is locked up. In a way I'll be pretty proud of the club if we recruit hidden gems and make them shine rather than picking up a few stars that don't look quite as good if they join a less talent packed team. The recruitment drive we went through when Kevin Moore took over didn't excite me, but the team he put together had a huge year.

At the end of the day I'm just going to hold my judgement about our recruitment drive until it's done. And even if it lacks established stars we might wind up pleasantly surprised.
I’d say your a bit more towards optimism than pessimism mate :tearsofjoy: and that’s fine. I think it’s safe to say there are some players we were definitely chasing Bateman and Api are 2 that come to mind without thinking to much into it. Like I said for different reasons we have missed out. The recruitment drive under Kev Moore wasn’t bad at all we signed 4 established first graders not fringe first graders.

But not comparing any coach or any board against each other just making my point that the window for 2021 to recruit anyone of serious note is closing. And if we want to purchase less known talent and hope to develop them into quality stars well.. got to work out pretty quickly what we are doing coaching wise.
 

Alan79

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I’d say your a bit more towards optimism than pessimism mate :tearsofjoy: and that’s fine. I think it’s safe to say there are some players we were definitely chasing Bateman and Api are 2 that come to mind without thinking to much into it. Like I said for different reasons we have missed out. The recruitment drive under Kev Moore wasn’t bad at all we signed 4 established first graders not fringe first graders.

But not comparing any coach or any board against each other just making my point that the window for 2021 to recruit anyone of serious note is closing. And if we want to purchase less known talent and hope to develop them into quality stars well.. got to work out pretty quickly what we are doing coaching wise.
Amid a sea of pessimism I guess my posts might stand out as optimistic. And as I said, I'm concerned, but have tempered that with some patience. So I'm just encouraging an attitude of wait and see. Screaming blue murder won't change anything. The board obviously know that their ongoing employment lies in bringing success back to game day.
 
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