Pay to be spared the axe for now... but Bulldogs’ $3m headache remains

DinkumDog

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That’s a pretty shit response Dunkum all things considered. My good self?? Really?

Not bad for a bloke I have gone into bat for on here multiple times..I have spoken to you privately and on the forum and you are very aware of my proactive stance that has many similar views to your own. So to just pigeon hole me in one camp or another just because I offer some real concerns I have is pretty dissapointing mate.
Sorry you feel that way Baz.
Not the intent.
 

DinkumDog

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Things open up occasionally but I’d hardly say they are actively trying to hand in attack. It’s still very structured with minimal risk.
But wasn’t that also Desball?
Foz got things going against the Steelers.
Even against the Chooks to a point, but there we were just outclassed everywhere (and made many errors).
Then against the very beatable Sharks our current #1 attack weapon did very little. We need him to fire until we can improve other positions around him including the 9 who provides some decent service to him to allow him to do what he does best.
 

Spoonman84

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But wasn’t that also Desball?
Foz got things going against the Steelers.
Even against the Chooks to a point, but there we were just outclassed everywhere (and made many errors).
Then against the very beatable Sharks our current #1 attack weapon did very little. We need him to fire until we can improve other positions around him including the 9 who provides some decent service to him to allow him to do what he does best.
I guess you could call it Des ball there are still a lot of traits from that in this side in attack. It’s what Pay has got the team playing he must think it’s the best chance of winning games. The problem with it is it relies on minimal errors and being on in defence. If those two things don’t happen you’re not a chance of winning.
 

piggy

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That's a board issue not Pay. Is there a top coach available, yes? sign him now for 2021, no? extended Pay for one year. We can't wait any longer on someone who isn't coming, every day that passes less and less players are available.
How will extending Pay for 2021 and then signing an elite coach for 2022 affect our ability to recruit elite players?
 

speedy2460

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We needed a top quality coach before. So we recruited a guy who had just been sacked.
I find it difficult to say anything positive about his time here.
 

DinkumDog

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I guess you could call it Des ball there are still a lot of traits from that in this side in attack. It’s what Pay has got the team playing he must think it’s the best chance of winning games. The problem with it is it relies on minimal errors and being on in defence. If those two things don’t happen you’re not a chance of winning.
I don’t disagree but our error rate kills us. Pay doesn’t drop the ball or give away penalties. Cowboys, Eagles, Chooks, Sharks. Out of those, we could’ve (should’ve) beaten the Cows and Peppies. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not massively pro-Pay nor think he’s our long term solution - but those high error counts can’t be 100% blamed on the coaching - the team needs more quality and it seems Gus, who many admire his footy nous feels the same way.

Yeah sure, he’s not going to say ‘this coach should be sacked’ on his poddie, but he’s also not going to say squad improvement is the key if he doesn’t believe it.
 

Juicydog

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Thats the problem with the style of football Pay has got the team playing. Grinding out results and going set for set without taking many risks with the ball makes any type of error critical to winning and losing.
That is true.

Hasler was the exact same. I remember very well Hasler saying, boring football suits this team

Lets be fair dinkum, everyone (kennel) expects us to play like the Roosters, though the only problem, I dont see us having cattle close to them.
 

Spoonman84

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I don’t disagree but our error rate kills us. Pay doesn’t drop the ball or give away penalties. Cowboys, Eagles, Chooks, Sharks. Out of those, we could’ve (should’ve) beaten the Cows and Peppies. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not massively pro-Pay nor think he’s our long term solution - but those high error counts can’t be 100% blamed on the coaching - the team needs more quality and it seems Gus, who many admire his footy nous feels the same way.

Yeah sure, he’s not going to say ‘this coach should be sacked’ on his poddie, but he’s also not going to say squad improvement is key if he doesn’t believe it.
I don’t think it’s players or Pay being the problem it’s both. Pay could be playing that dumbed done style because it’s all that some players are capable of executing who knows. Of course players have played their part in losses and they aren’t immune from the blame at all.

The thing with Pay is I’m just not convinced he’s going to do that much better with a better roster. Granted I only see him in the media so it could be different behind the scenes but he doesn’t even seem confident in himself and his coaching.
 

DinkumDog

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I don’t think it’s players or Pay being the problem it’s both. Pay could be playing that dumbed done style because it’s all that some players are capable of executing who knows. Of course players have played their part in losses and they aren’t immune from the blame at all.

The thing with Pay is I’m just not convinced he’s going to do that much better with a better roster. Granted I only see him in the media so it could be different behind the scenes but he doesn’t even seem confident in himself and his coaching.
That’s fair. Let’s see the outcome of tomorrow’s board meeting and if nothing earth shattering tomorrow what happens over the coming weeks. Irrespective of the coaching the squad needs a lot of improvement. We have the money and more than fair assumption a bunch of the exisiting squad won’t be retained beyond this year but best not to tell them too early so they stop caring and results get even worse.
 

2ndphase

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I don’t disagree but our error rate kills us. Pay doesn’t drop the ball or give away penalties. Cowboys, Eagles, Chooks, Sharks. Out of those, we could’ve (should’ve) beaten the Cows and Peppies. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not massively pro-Pay nor think he’s our long term solution - but those high error counts can’t be 100% blamed on the coaching - the team needs more quality and it seems Gus, who many admire his footy nous feels the same way.

Yeah sure, he’s not going to say ‘this coach should be sacked’ on his poddie, but he’s also not going to say squad improvement is the key if he doesn’t believe it.
Ive seen Foran run across field a number of times with players like Jackson just getting in his way and Foran just has to stop and take the tackle.
They seem so out of sync i dont know what they do at training..
 

DinkumDog

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Ive seen Foran run across field a number of times with players like Jackson just getting in his way and Foran just has to stop and take the tackle.
They seem so out of sync i dont know what they do at training..
I can’t answer that but I’m sure they don’t practice dropping balls at training and they do enough of that during games!
 

MatstaDogg

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nice analogy, here's one for you

would you give the keys of a brand new $3mil ferrari to an "L" plater
Or Eddie Griffin.

If you don't know the story, the actor/comedian crashed a rare Ferrari Enzo.
 

wendog33

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Do you have any problem with his selections of playing guys out of their best positions?, his bench and timing of those rotations?
Twin Turbs how do you disagree with me asking a question. C'mon man gimme a break ;)
 

wendog33

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No really, considering what he has to work with.
Casting bias aside, who would you have as our best centre pairing.
Who is your best forwards? He really hasnt got a lot to work with.
Appreciate your take on it. Its the main criticism of Pay...his selection of what we think is best 17.

Hoppa and Holland as the centre pairing with what we have for centre pair. Our best wingers in DWZ and Smith def not centres either of them. Avo FB.

RT, Katoa until he proves he is a dud and Tolman. Elliott, RFM and JJ . Agree not earth shattering but their best spots IMHO.

Good to chuck around some thoughts and ideas.
 

wendog33

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I don't think Pay is the best option and obviously the board has doubts over him too or he would have been signed by now.

I agree the club has to make a call and I'm not sure what they are waiting to see from Pay. They should already know if he's their best option going forward and few wins or losses in the next few weeks won't reveal anything new.
It will reveal if he has lost the dressing shed I guess.
 

Nasheed

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I would add that Thompson signed for 2021 not knowing who the coach would be.
I don't believe that it is beyond imagination that half of the clubs would have grabbed Thompson if he showed any doubt about coming here because of coach doubt.
He knows the Titans coach rather well and even he couldn't change his mind.
Then he agreed to get here 6 months early, again not knowing who the coach might be next week let alone next year.

Is it possible that some are somewhat over emphasising the importance of who the coach is when a player is deciding which club to sign with?

Go Dogs
hundred percent. I've spoken about this in detail before.
Players want cash and success. Coach can be intertwined into the success element, but most coaches are green. And coaches change like pancakes on a hot tin roof. It's all about the benjamins firstly, then location (beach,family, etc) then the team (cool squad, successful team) and then the coach if it's a tie break.

There is however some coaches that would directly turn a player off signing. But they are rare. Griffin, Jason Taylor, Nathan Brown and (especially) Tony Martin would be the only ones that come to mind.
 

Big M

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That’s fair. Let’s see the outcome of tomorrow’s board meeting and if nothing earth shattering tomorrow what happens over the coming weeks. Irrespective of the coaching the squad needs a lot of improvement. We have the money and more than fair assumption a bunch of the exisiting squad won’t be retained beyond this year but best not to tell them too early so they stop caring and results get even worse.
Most of the players who aren’t being kept have already been told.
 
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