Consolidated Pay Thread

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Natboy

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Do we have to get 3 wooden spoons before we realise Pay is not a coach ?
No but look at the context of my reply.
Someone tried an argument that was severely flawed and I responded
 

El Padrino

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That’s right mate. Coaches literally turned us down when seeing the situation Hasler had left us in.
Pay had the nuts to take on the role when others wouldn’t and for that along with the fact he was a top player, played for his country and had more toughness than many here could dream about he has my respect. Who else do we get? Another unproven? If Pay had a decent roster how we he go? We will probably never know. He has never even had a full roster cap wise and now player wise to work with
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Tassie Devil

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Strange. I think he's just stating facts rather than making excuses. Don't think you can argue with what he's saying.

Stepping aside from that, I haven't seen anyone say Pay hasn't made mistakes nor that he's doing a wonderful job which is what I'd expect a 'Pay sympathiser' to do personally. It's clear he's struggling as a coach. Some can see that there's more to it than him simply being just shit as he really has been hampered the whole time he's been here.

Does that mean he should be excused for our current performances? Hell no. But I don't think anyone is saying he should be. More that when we discuss his performance that we bring in all the factors to evaluate him.
 

Tassie Devil

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That’s right mate. Coaches literally turned us down when seeing the situation Hasler had left us in.
Pay had the nuts to take on the role when others wouldn’t and for that along with the fact he was a top player, played for his country and had more toughness than many here could dream about he has my respect. Who else do we get? Another unproven? If Pay had a decent roster how we he go? We will probably never know. He has never even had a full roster cap wise and now player wise to work with
Whether he played for his country or had more mental toughness that all could only dream of here doesn't mean a lot to me. I know what you're saying, but for me it's not important.

I simply want the right person to be in charge of our team. And I don't believe he is, and never have.

That being said, a vast majority are thinking too simplistic on this. I don't believe it's as basic as saying "OK, he's not good enough. Let's get someone else in." There's so much behind his current slump ... which has been going on for a decent time ... that it's doubtful that someone would be able to simply step in and change the fortunes around just like that. Unless they were a top coach already, and if they were there'd be little chance they'd want to come to us and also questions would be asked if we wanted another Dessie Hasler on our hands.

Nothing is fool proof. If results continue going the way they've been going then I don't think there'll be too much debate as he'll have to leave. I think his reaction to this will tell a lot, especially with the team selection for next week. Time will tell.
 

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Strange. I think he's just stating facts rather than making excuses. Don't think you can argue with what he's saying.

Stepping aside from that, I haven't seen anyone say Pay hasn't made mistakes nor that he's doing a wonderful job which is what I'd expect a 'Pay sympathiser' to do personally. It's clear he's struggling as a coach. Some can see that there's more to it than him simply being just shit as he really has been hampered the whole time he's been here.

Does that mean he should be excused for our current performances? Hell no. But I don't think anyone is saying he should be. More that when we discuss his performance that we bring in all the factors to evaluate him.
Numerous people have said continuously that Pay has "overachieved" as coach and that no one else could do better. Some people are still making excuses for him even after last night.
 

B-Train

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That’s right mate. Coaches literally turned us down when seeing the situation Hasler had left us in.
Pay had the nuts to take on the role when others wouldn’t and for that along with the fact he was a top player, played for his country and had more toughness than many here could dream about he has my respect. Who else do we get? Another unproven? If Pay had a decent roster how we he go? We will probably never know. He has never even had a full roster cap wise and now player wise to work with
It's not just about the roster Natboy, it's about the team selections and tactics. Do you honestly think that the team played to their potential last night or disagree that Pay played several people out of position yet again?

Things Pay can control:

- Move DWZ from fullback when he has no confidence there now

- Not leave Averillo on the bench til the 60th minute in a blowout

- Never pick Reimis at centre again. He'd be lucky to get picked at all on current form.

- Don't play Tolman the first 55 minutes before taking him off. Play Renouf and RFM more than 25 minutes..

- Don't drop Wakeham for Lewis and Cogger when both have proven they're Reserve Graders time and time again

- Encourage the team to throw the ball around more and not play one out footy every game as we're far too predictable.

These are things Pay can control and do better. Then maybe we won't see as many 30 point losses. But Pay will be so desperate to keep his job that he'll likely get more conservative and do more of the same over the coming weeks.
 
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Tassie Devil

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It's not just about the roster Natboy, it's about the team selections and tactics. Do you honestly think that the team played to their potential last night or disagree that Pay played several people out of position yet again?

Things Pay can control:

- Move DWZ from fullback when he has no confidence there now

- Not leave Averillo on the bench til the 60th minute im a blowout

- Never pick Reimis at centre again. He'd be lucky to get picked at all on current form.

- Don't play Tolman the first 55 minutes before taking him off. Play Renouf and RFM more than 25 minutes..

- Don't drop Wakeham for Lewis and Cogger when both have proven they're Reserve Graders time and time again

- Encourage the ball to throw the team around more and not play one out footy every game as we're far too predictable.

These are things Pay can control and do better. Then maybe we won't see as many 30 point losses. But Pay will be so desperate to keep his job that he'll likely get more conservative and do more of the same over the coming weeks.
Agree with this all. Really do. He's not the right person for the Dogs.

My line isn't about whether he is or not. It's about who the fuck do we get instead of him. And the 'anyone's better than Pay' doesn't cut it with me.
 

Tassie Devil

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Numerous people have said continuously that Pay has "overachieved" as coach and that no one else could do better. Some people are still making excuses for him even after last night.
Not sure if anyone is making excuses btw. I know I'm certainly not.
 

DinkumDog

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It's not just about the roster Natboy, it's about the team selections and tactics. Do you honestly think that the team played to their potential last night or disagree that Pay played several people out of position yet again?

Things Pay can control:

- Move DWZ from fullback when he has no confidence there now

- Not leave Averillo on the bench til the 60th minute im a blowout

- Never pick Reimis at centre again. He'd be lucky to get picked at all on current form.

- Don't play Tolman the first 55 minutes before taking him off. Play Renouf and RFM more than 25 minutes..

- Don't drop Wakeham for Lewis and Cogger when both have proven they're Reserve Graders time and time again

- Encourage the ball to throw the team around more and not play one out footy every game as we're far too predictable.

These are things Pay can control and do better. Then maybe we won't see as many 30 point losses. But Pay will be so desperate to keep his job that he'll likely get more conservative and do more of the same over the coming weeks.
You’ve cracked it Ben, we need to stop the ball from throwing the team around! :-)

Only joking mate - this is a fair post.
Last night showed very clearly the whole team lacks confidence, which when you’re down only makes things worse.

I would like to know the story behind Wakeham. Was he dropped not only from the 22 announced last Tuesday but the final 17 for a reason - or was it simply a matter of Cogger having a go?

I guess we’ll know on Tuesday but I’m convinced Lewis only played because Foz was not available - and he did himself no service to be considered again as soon as Foz is ready.
 

GA45

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Time for a coach with previous FG experience.. our last 2 rookie coach appointments Pay and Moore havent gone well..
Kevin Moore got us too a semi final. Don’t lump him in with Pay.
 

B-Train

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Agree with this all. Really do. He's not the right person for the Dogs.

My line isn't about whether he is or not. It's about who the fuck do we get instead of him. And the 'anyone's better than Pay' doesn't cut it with me.
Thanks for the reasonable reply Steve. I respectfully disagree and think it's worth taking a chance on someone else as we can't do any worse but we can agree to disagree on that.
 

B-Train

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You’ve cracked it Ben, we need to stop the ball from throwing the team around! :-)

Only joking mate - this is a fair post.
Last night showed very clearly the whole team lacks confidence, which when you’re down only makes things worse.

I would like to know the story behind Wakeham. Was he dropped not only from the 22 announced last Tuesday but the final 17 for a reason - or was it simply a matter of Cogger having a go?

I guess we’ll know on Tuesday but I’m convinced Lewis only played because Foz was not available - and he did himself no service to be considered again as soon as Foz is ready.
Hahaha. Whoops! It's too early Dinkum! :grinning:

I honestly think it was Pay just rotating the halves to see what Cogger would offer. I understand giving Cogger a chance, which he didn't make the most of. I don't understand picking Lewis when he was benched the game before.
 

Tassie Devil

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Thanks for the reasonable reply Steve. I respectfully disagree and think it's worth taking a chance on someone else as we can't do any worse but we can agree to disagree on that.
Honestly understand the feeling. Been there many times before with the teams I've followed both at the Dogs and Liverpool. It's hard. No one likes suffering through these humiliating defeats that lack conviction, passion, pride in the jersey. I completely get it.

However, I don't want the club to roll the dice on the coach and lose out again. I really don't. They rolled the dice with Dessie and I was sure they'd played that right, but it's set us back years and years. We do that again, and I honestly fear for the future of the club.

On the flipside we keep playing like we did today and .... so I understand your feelings. Believe it or not.
 

Tassie Devil

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Hahaha. Whoops! It's too early Dinkum! :grinning:

I honestly think it was Pay just rotating the halves to see what Cogger would offer. I understand giving Cogger a chance, which he didn't make the most of. I don't understand picking Lewis when he was benched the game before.
I would honestly like to understand why Wakeham wasn't there at all. That's a real shock for me and a huge step back by Pay. Not a good decision clearly though I think most would've known that when they saw the line up last week.
 

DinkumDog

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Hahaha. Whoops! It's too early Dinkum! :grinning:

I honestly think it was Pay just rotating the halves to see what Cogger would offer. I understand giving Cogger a chance, which he didn't make the most of. I don't understand picking Lewis when he was benched the game before.
Yeah - which is precisely why I want to know why. In that instance, what - Cogger 6, Wakeham 7?
 

B-Train

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Yeah - which is precisely why I want to know why. In that instance, what - Cogger 6, Wakeham 7?
That's what he should have done going into the game. Or Averillo and Wakeham. I'm not saying Wakeham is guaranteed to be our long term half but we can't find out how good he is when he's played 5 games whereas Lewis and Cogger have played tonnes and both of those two shouldn't see FG again.

Pay keeps saying how young players need 50 games to develop but it will be hard for Wakeham to get more than 10 games under Pay it he keeps taking Wakeham in and out of the lineup. They re-signed him I assume because they believe in his ability. So let's see him develop...

It makes no sense to have him out of the 17 when we're a rebuilding team and there's not even Reserve Grade for him to get experience in...
 

Sleeky

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Do we have to get 3 wooden spoons before we realise Pay is not a coach ?
No but look at the context of my reply.
Someone tried an argument that was severely flawed and I responded
LMAO you got owned RatBoy.

You never answered as to why O’Brien is getting more out of a team with pretty much the same roster. It is it because they got 3 wooden spoons?

Here’s a fun fact. The past couple years, Pay has strung a few wins together...... albeit too little too late in the season. Then the Pay Cum Guzzler Party come out and state that he has overachieved with a team that he inherited and that should build momentum for next year.
Third season and we look worse than we did when he first started.

Now, start deflecting like you always do
 

2ndphase

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Dean Pays game plan..
"Hold the ball"
"dont make any mistakes"
"Defend,defend,defend"
No go out there and win!!
 

DinkumDog

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That's what he should have done going into the game. Or Averillo and Wakeham. I'm not saying Wakeham is guaranteed to be our long term half but we can't find out how good he is when he's played 5 games whereas Lewis and Cogger have played tonnes and both of those two shouldn't see FG again.

Pay keeps saying how young players need 50 games to develop but it will be hard for Wakeham to get more than 10 games under Pay it he keeps taking Wakeham in and out of the lineup. They re-signed him I assume because they believe in his ability. So let's see him develop...

It makes no sense to have him out of the 17 when we're a rebuilding team and there's not even Reserve Grade for him to get experience in...
And that’s the thing - despite the break and with the 50 game development target, what was the reason - injury? disciplinary?

In the presser there were questions about Foz but none about Wakeham.

Without venturing near the landmine of ‘defending Pay’ again - to me there simply has to be reason he was not there other than coaching incompetence. So going to be very interesting to see who partners Foz (assuming availability) for Round 4 given last nights result.

As for Averillo - looks like he can play anywhere in the backline and that should probably be the focus assuming Foz/Wakeham availability for halves as no-one in the back five is currently travelling particularly well...
 
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