Dean Pay on 2SM

[Farcanrefs]

My 9 month old daughter can replace Lyn. She sure as hell can do a better job. As for Pay my cleaner at work will do a better job then him. Can't believe people are still supporter of this inept board. No major sponsor no finals series while they been in charge. They have done nothing besides send us backwards. Yet people like yourself still support them. What have they done that's good in order for you to support them? Next AGM they are gone. Difficulty be voting against them.

Is that you Ray

 

[youoboys]

Bulldogs fan here: I heard through a certain board member Dean pay is being discussed to extend for 2 years. Just have to make top 8

 

[speedy2460]

Probably because I've already posted it here 20 times previously. But since some are a bit slow on the uptake:

- Fronted the members in May 2018 to be honest about what they had inherited and pulled no punches that 'we could not be competitive again until 2021' (I was in the room when they said this).
- Negotiated a settlement with Hasler to avoid long and costly legal action over the contract the previous Chairman committed then rescinded on (and no, the settlement was nowhere near the amount often speculated on here).
- Negotiated to release early M'Bye, Woods and Klemmer to other clubs to help bring us back under the salary cap we were massively over due to signing Foran and Woods on dollars we couldn't afford which was on top of already committed back-ended contracts, some with ratchet clauses, making our cap position even worse.
- Began to release expensive players at the end or heading towards the end of their careers (Eastwood, Moz Brothers) to maintain cap management whilst other back-ended/ratcheted contracts kicked in/up, raising our player salary costs.
- Instituted various forms of corporate governance so a mess created by the Three Amigos could never happen again (because it absolutely STUFFED our club as we've all seen in the past 2 seasons).
- Set up two partnerships to re-start pathways for juniors into our system (pretty much abandoned by the previous administrators and coach who believed you bought big to win, not bothered to develop players).
- Recruited who they could with what little money was available (particularly for 2019 and 2020) to keep us cap compliant whilst the rest of these back-ended/ratcheted contracts matured (the last of those this year).
- Retained just about all sponsors (yes, some on lesser deals) for a team that was clearly not going to win the competition any time soon - when they could've easily walked (and no, KIA did not walk, they downgraded, in case you weren't aware).
- Convinced a business to part with $2m in discretionary spend to become major sponsor in an already rapidly cooling economy (pre-COVID, but post bushfires) - only for 2 selfish former employees to screw that up (not to mention damage one of the above partnerships which the board is now working on restoring faith in).

Shall I go on?
The fact is it was ALWAYS going to take time to repair the massive damaged state the club was left in by the previous administrators. They never shied away from it, provided a timeline to fix it and have stuck to it.
So maybe we can have a discussion in 6 and again in 12 months about how 'inept' they really are. Maybe you'll change your mind when some upcoming roster changes are finalised and announced.
Will we still see you, your daughter and cleaner on Monday? If so, call 0406 650 430 on your arrival at Belmore. Ask for Rej. Cheers.

I think this posts sums it up nicely. Some people seem determined to undermine anything that is being done by the Club.

 

[DinkumDog]

I think this posts sums it up nicely. Some people seem determined to undermine anything that is being done by the Club.

Cheers Speedy - and yes some will never be happy no matter what happens.
I'm not interested in being 'right' - I'm interested in what's good for our club.
I get that TK can be a place to vent and rant - and I get the frustration - no Dogs supporter likes us seeing what we've been through.
The Rona with no footy and isolation are likely winding people up too - totally get it.
But people with zero idea of what's really going on would be best not to make absurd suggestions that babies can do a better job and so on.
Everyone just needs to show a little bit more patience - there is a plan and there will be bumps in the road - because there's things the club simply cannot completely control like Port Macquarie or The Rona, or the fact that ultimately a player might choose another club for whatever reason.
Hopefully within 12 months The Kennel is a lot happier place because we're talking about how the results are starting to show with the handcuffs finally off...

 

[B-Train]

No one is doubting that we had cap problems and were in need of a rebuild. People are questioning whether Pay deserves to remain head coach beyond this year. I don't see how that's such a preposterous thing to ask when he's in his third year as coach and we still haven't improved from his first year despite the fact that our cap issues are mostly behind us.

People can support Pay all they want and that's fine if that's your opinion. But to suggest that no other coach could do better or to dismiss averaging the fewest amount of points as everyone else's fault but Pay's is being as blind and ignorant as you claim others on the other side of the argument to be.

The problem some people have with the Pay loyalists is it's always Pay who deserves credit when we win, but it's the players who are rubbish when we lose. You can't have it both ways. If we struggle, which we have for two plus seasons, then the coach of any sporting team at any level of competition will rightly be questioned. That comes with the job.

I don't understand why so many get so defensive and can't understand that basic principle. They act as if we're attacking their family members. He's the coach of an NRL team. Of course there will be scrutiny!

 

[Natboy]

Cheers Speedy - and yes some will never be happy no matter what happens.
I'm not interested in being 'right' - I'm interested in what's good for our club.
I get that TK can be a place to vent and rant - and I get the frustration - no Dogs supporter likes us seeing what we've been through.
The Rona with no footy and isolation are likely winding people up too - totally get it.
But people with zero idea of what's really going on would be best not to make absurd suggestions that babies can do a better job and so on.
Everyone just needs to show a little bit more patience - there is a plan and there will be bumps in the road - because there's things the club simply cannot completely control like Port Macquarie or The Rona, or the fact that ultimately a player might choose another club for whatever reason.
Hopefully within 12 months The Kennel is a lot happier place because we're talking about how the results are starting to show with the handcuffs finally off...

Exactly mate. There is definitely an in- between with expecting over night success and accepting mediocrity

 

[SPEARTAKVIDREFS]

Defense and attack.

Our Deference has improved. We lost experience, team continually reshuffled. Its been a long road but our defense is steadying and has improved. Don't see too many complaints on here about defense. I certainly cant complain about defense.

Coaches job is to identify weakness's and strengthen areas of deficiency. Delegate, whatever. Perhaps Im wrong?
Has Pay not done this in regards to defense? Surely he has.

I simply dont understand how we cannot improve in attack.
This off season was a major indicator. It appears all our eggs where placed in the 1 basket. That being everything down to Lewis last tackle kicks.
No set plays, no combinations, settlers, no cohesion. Then in come the errors, is it any surprise?
Its not good enough in this day and age of the game. What possible excuse it there?
Please dont tell me this is due to losing CHN and Okunbor a week out from the start of the season or lack of strike power.

I think this is where most of the negative comments arise. Its my frustration. Its not about winning all the time. Its about improvement.
I like Pay. I think hes done well with the shit hes had to endure.
Coaching and training is my concern.
I just cant believe you cannot improve in attack 10% in 2 years.
I do not believe this is all down to 'cattle'. I dont believe that the squad is un trainable in attack because they are not worth X amount of $$ on paper.
I dont care about other coaches and other clubs, zero % improvement in attack 2 years?

A 30% improvement in attack would go a long way. Any consistant improvement.
I obviously dont understand club land.
Is it the supporting coaching staff? Why footy is so hard? I dont understand why "the obvious" is unattainable.

 

[El Padrino]

No one is doubting that we had cap problems and were in need of a rebuild. People are questioning whether Pay deserves to remain head coach beyond this year. I don't see how that's such a preposterous thing to ask when he's in his third year as coach and we still haven't improved from his first year despite the fact that our cap issues are mostly behind us.

People can support Pay all they want and that's fine if that's your opinion. But to suggest that no other coach could do better or to dismiss averaging the fewest amount of points as everyone else's fault but Pay's is being as blind and ignorant as you claim others on the other side of the argument to be.

The problem some people have with the Pay loyalists is it's always Pay who deserves credit when we win, but it's the players who are rubbish when we lose. You can't have it both ways. If we struggle, which we have for two plus seasons, then the coach of any sporting team at any level of competition will rightly be questioned. That comes with the job.

I don't understand why so many get so defensive and can't understand that basic principle. They act as if we're attacking their family members. He's the coach of an NRL team. Of course there will be scrutiny!

well said

 

[B-Train]

Defense and attack.

Our Deference has improved. We lost experience, team continually reshuffled. Its been a long road but our defense is steadying and has improved. Don't see too many complaints on here about defense. I certainly cant complain about defense.

Coaches job is to identify weakness's and strengthen areas of deficiency. Delegate, whatever. Perhaps Im wrong?
Has Pay not done this in regards to defense? Surely he has.

I simply dont understand how we cannot improve in attack.
This off season was a major indicator. It appears all our eggs where placed in the 1 basket. That being everything down to Lewis last tackle kicks.
No set plays, no combinations, settlers, no cohesion. Then in come the errors, is it any surprise?
Its not good enough in this day and age of the game. What possible excuse it there?
Please dont tell me this is due to losing CHN and Okunbor a week out from the start of the season or lack of strike power.

I think this is where most of the negative comments arise. Its my frustration. Its not about winning all the time. Its about improvement.
I like Pay. I think hes done well with the shit hes had to endure.
Coaching and training is my concern.
I just cant believe you cannot improve in attack 10% in 2 years.
I do not believe this is all down to 'cattle'. I dont believe that the squad is un trainable in attack because they are not worth X amount of $$ on paper.
I dont care about other coaches and other clubs, zero % improvement in attack 2 years?

A 30% improvement in attack would go a long way. Any consistant improvement.
I obviously dont understand club land.
Is it the supporting coaching staff? Why footy is so hard? I dont understand why "the obvious" is unattainable.

The thing is when Pay first took over, our attack was poor in terms of lack of structure and poor tactics. We were still playing Desball. In 2018 we averaged about 18 points a game.

Last season we averaged 13.6 points a game. So we averaged 4 less points with more of Pay's recruits in year two as head coach where you'd generally expect some improvement. Yet somehow we're supposed to believe no other coach could do better? Pay himself did better in 2018!

Which means we're not improving in the areas which need the most addressing and dare I say it, the coach should take some of the responsibility. It's blasphemous I know.

We're basically still playing the same side to side, slow and predictable one out or block play attack that we've had since Des was coach. For anyone to suggest we can't at least change our tactics, shape and structure in three seasons is ludicrous.

 

[DinkumDog]

No one is doubting that we had cap problems and were in need of a rebuild. People are questioning whether Pay deserves to remain head coach beyond this year. I don't see how that's such a preposterous thing to ask when he's in his third year as coach and we still haven't improved from his first year despite the fact that our cap issues are mostly behind us.

People can support Pay all they want and that's fine if that's your opinion. But to suggest that no other coach could do better or to dismiss averaging the fewest amount of points as everyone else's fault but Pay's is being as blind and ignorant as you claim others on the other side of the argument to be.

The problem some people have with the Pay loyalists is it's always Pay who deserves credit when we win, but it's the players who are rubbish when we lose. You can't have it both ways. If we struggle, which we have for two plus seasons, then the coach of any sporting team at any level of competition will rightly be questioned. That comes with the job.

I don't understand why so many get so defensive and can't understand that basic principle. They act as if we're attacking their family members. He's the coach of an NRL team. Of course there will be scrutiny!

Nothing aimed at you Ben - your posts are reasonable.
I wasn't really referring to the coaching, but others who say the club leadership are useless and doing nothing - which couldn't be further from the truth.
For the record, I'm not a 'Pay Loyalist' - I think the guy has done his very best in a set of trying circumstances and I don't see any obvious alternatives to him right now - that's why I'm not simply joining the 'Sack Pay!' crowd - because most of them can't name a credible alternative (who's also available for 2021).
We will likely have to make a change at some point, but change for the sake of change when the handcuffs are only removed at the end of this season I don't know makes a lot of sense.
Should he coach at least next year with more firepower in the squad? Some say give him the chance, others including yourself say no. The board will ultimately decide that one and it will divide opinion again.
Our cap issues still hurt this year as much as the previous two. That has hindered in building the squad with more quality that we obviously need.
That also hurts our ability to attack - so whilst I don't think Pay has got everything right - I also don't think the blame can be laid entirely at his feet.
Soon enough we're going to know more about who's leaving and who's joining for 2021 - and that no doubt also plays into the coaching plan - and will validate (or not) the claims of some that the club can't attract top talent under Pay...

 

[SPEARTAKVIDREFS]

The thing is when Pay first took over, our attack was poor in terms of lack of structure and poor tactics. We were still playing Desball. In 2018 we averaged about 18 points a game.

Last season we averaged 13.6 points a game. So we averaged 4 less points with more of Pay's recruits in year two as head coach where you'd generally expect some improvement. Yet somehow we're supposed to believe no other coach could do better? Pay himself did better in 2018!

Which means we're not improving in the areas which need the most addressing and dare I say it, the coach should take some of the responsibility. It's blasphemous I know.

We're basically still playing the same side to side, slow and predictable one out or block play attack that we've had since Des was coach. For anyone to suggest we can't at least change our tactics, shape and structure in three seasons is ludicrous.

As I said, I like Pay. I would love nothing more than for him to be successful. I think he has done well to get at times a near on reserve grade squad firing and playing with heart. I believe the team themselves have better in them. We have DWZ which I believe is capable of more. Why does he have zero strike power? That confidence would go a long way and would hopefully diminish the ordinary shit in his game like dropping balls. Meany has improved. I know we have lost Foran at times. So its not about just dumping shit on Pay for the sake of us not winning games. I know the head coach isnt responsible for everything. Id just like to understand more on why we have had zero improvement in attack. Thats not my opinion, thats a fact. Is Pay simply incapable of improving attack or is there more to it. I dunno, does my fucking head in.

 

[DinkumDog]

The thing is when Pay first took over, our attack was poor in terms of lack of structure and poor tactics. We were still playing Desball. In 2018 we averaged about 18 points a game.

Last season we averaged 13.6 points a game. So we averaged 4 less points with more of Pay's recruits in year two as head coach where you'd generally expect some improvement. Yet somehow we're supposed to believe no other coach could do better? Pay himself did better in 2018!

Which means we're not improving in the areas which need the most addressing and dare I say it, the coach should take some of the responsibility. It's blasphemous I know.

We're basically still playing the same side to side, slow and predictable one out or block play attack that we've had since Des was coach. For anyone to suggest we can't at least change our tactics, shape and structure is ludicrous.

No mate. The fact is in 2018 we had the likes of The Mozzies and Klemmer still at the club.
You could also add M'Bye and Woods for the first half of the year. Neither of them set the world on fire, but it's a lot of top grade experience nonetheless.
That amount of experience of course is going to help overall performance - hence why we averaged more points that year than last year.
So to me it's logical (not ideal) that our performance last year would've regressed - we simply didn't have the experience at the club (it's well documented that we had the youngest and least experienced squad in the NRL last year).
We still didn't finish last.
Is it all Pay's fault? You seem to think so - and whilst I don't defend him 100% - I don't think it is.
Is it also his fault we lost one of our key attacking forwards with a good offload this year right before season kick-off? No, it's the player's fault.
We need some perspective on the entire situation the club has faced since the beginning of 2018 - coupled with the fact that we were already on the way down in Hasler's final year - didn't make the finals then either...

 

[B-Train]

Nothing aimed at you Ben - your posts are reasonable.
I wasn't really referring to the coaching, but others who say the club leadership are useless and doing nothing - which couldn't be further from the truth.
For the record, I'm not a 'Pay Loyalist' - I think the guy has done his very best in a set of trying circumstances and I don't see any obvious alternatives to him right now - that's why I'm not simply joining the 'Sack Pay!' crowd - because most of them can't name a credible alternative (who's also available for 2021).
We will likely have to make a change at some point, but change for the sake of change when the handcuffs are only removed at the end of this season I don't know makes a lot of sense.
Should he coach at least next year with more firepower in the squad? Some say give him the chance, others including yourself say no. The board will ultimately decide that one and it will divide opinion again.
Our cap issues still hurt this year as much as the previous two. That has hindered in building the squad with more quality that we obviously need.
That also hurts our ability to attack - so whilst I don't think Pay has got everything right - I also don't think the blame can be laid entirely at his feet.
Soon enough we're going to know more about who's leaving and who's joining for 2021 - and that no doubt also plays into the coaching plan - and will validate (or not) the claims of some that the club can't attract top talent under Pay...

I think that's part of the problem and the angst amongst a lot of us. We've waited for five seasons to be out of this mess and we need to make sure every decision the club makes from here on is the right one otherwise we'll just create another mess and set the club back another three years.

I've got nothing against the current regime because of the mess they inherited. But from now onwards (recruiting for 2021), everything will be on their shoulders. In my eyes Pay was always a stop gap coach as we couldn't attract anyone better given the situation. I don't see what he's done well enough to warrant being re-signed since he's been coach.

We're playing a 1980's brand of footy in 2020 and that's because of the coach. It will be hard to recruit rep quality players or young stars with that kind of defensive gameplan. That's just the reality of the situation. Players are sheep and will only follow if there's something they can get excited about. It will be a hard sell if we have another season of averaging 14 points a game.

 

[DinkumDog]

View attachment 14697

So by your logic Godfather - if everyone on here lowers their posts to your standards, everyone is exceptional?
Yeah nah...don't think so.

 

[B-Train]

No mate. The fact is in 2018 we had the likes of The Mozzies and Klemmer still at the club.
You could also add M'Bye and Woods for the first half of the year. Neither of them set the world on fire, but it's a lot of top grade experience nonetheless.
That amount of experience of course is going to help overall performance - hence why we averaged more points that year than last year.
So to me it's logical (not ideal) that our performance last year would've regressed - we simply didn't have the experience at the club (it's well documented that we had the youngest and least experienced squad in the NRL last year).
We still didn't finish last.
Is it all Pay's fault? You seem to think so - and whilst I don't defend him 100% - I don't think it is.
Is it also his fault we lost one of our key attacking forwards with a good offload this year right before season kick-off? No, it's the player's fault.
We need some perspective on the entire situation the club has faced since the beginning of 2018 - coupled with the fact that we were already on the way down in Hasler's final year - didn't make the finals then either...

Woods was horrible in his brief stint with us. He was more of a detriment than anything. Likewise, the Morris' were almost invisible and didn't want to be there all season and played accordingly and Moses was his usual disappointing self.

Either way, 18 points a game with all of these "better players" is poor and we kept the exact same attack from the Des years. We still have that same attack two years later. These are the kinds of things that are in Pay's control. It's not about talent or a lack of in this regard. It's about poor tactics and no gameplan other than to tackle.

Do you watch us play and think we look like a sharp, professional outfit that is a threat to score points? I can't remember ever thinking that with Pay as coach and even dating back to all but Des' first few seasons.

 

[SPEARTAKVIDREFS]

I think Morris bros offered more in defence then attack. We felt the absence of there defense more so. Actually we got shredded

 

[CrittaMagic69]

Scenes when the season restarts and Pay names Lewis at halfback

 

[DinkumDog]

I think that's part of the problem and the angst amongst a lot of us. We've waited for five seasons to be out of this mess and we need to make sure every decision the club makes from here on is the right one otherwise we'll just create another mess and set the club back another three years.

I've got nothing against the current regime because of the mess they inherited. But from now onwards (recruiting for 2021), everything will be on their shoulders. In my eyes Pay was always a stop gap coach as we couldn't attract anyone better given the situation. I don't see what he's done well enough to warrant being re-signed since he's been coach.

We're playing a 1980's brand of footy in 2020 and that's because of the coach. It will be hard to recruit rep quality players or young stars with that kind of defensive gameplan. That's just the reality of the situation. Players are sheep and will only follow if there's something they can get excited about. It will be a hard sell if we have another season of averaging 14 points a game.

5 seasons is a combination of two administrations, 2 coaches and some very serious mistakes that could not have been repaired in a short time.
Of course 2021 is key - they've stated it, they know it and they'd be pretty foolish not to deliver beyond this year - otherwise the members will likely boot them out in early 2022, just as they did the previous administrators when the members lost patience.
Again I'll reserve my judgement on our (including Pay's) ability to attract players until I see the 2021 roster. That alone must say volumes about the boards intent as to whether to renew Pay or not.
If a strong message was coming to the club that quality players wouldn't sign because of the coach - the outcome would be obvious. I'm not convinced that's happening...

 

[Jackson_1994]

Scenes when the season restarts and Pay names Lewis at halfback

Please don't joke like that hahahaha

 

[DinkumDog]

Woods was horrible in his brief stint with us. He was more of a detriment than anything. Likewise, the Morris' were almost invisible and didn't want to be there all season and played accordingly and Moses was his usual disappointing self.

Either way, 18 points a game with all of these "better players" is poor and we kept the exact same attack from the Des years. We still have that same attack two years later. These are the kinds of things that are in Pay's control. It's not about talent or a lack of in this regard. It's about poor tactics and no gameplan other than to tackle.

Do you watch us play and think we look like a sharp, professional outfit that is a threat to score points? I can't remember ever thinking that with Pay as coach and even dating back to all but Des' first few seasons.

Agree mate - Woods was terrible in blue and white and I don't think anyone would say otherwise. No idea why we signed him. I barely raised an eyebrow when he and Mbye left.
Yes, Mozzies didn't appear happy probably largely because it was known we couldn't keep both of them and certainly not for two years as they both wanted. But both scored 9 tries and ran over 2000 metres each in 2018 - that sort of strike power we simply didn't have last year.
My point was there was a lot more first grade experience in 2018 then there was in 2019 and that plays a part in how many points you both generate and concede. It's not ONLY the coach or the game plan.
Yes we have been too defensive when you compare us to say the Storm or the Chooks. Of course changes are required - no one denies that. So let's wait and see the squad announcements for 2021. I'm willing to leave judgement on further changes until then...