News Bulldogs coach Dean Pay the man to help Canterbury recover from scandal

[Howard Moon]

Cheating is rampant in sport. Don't be so naive

How am I being naive lol, you think I don't know that? if I was being naive I would be like everybody else acting so shocked that two football players picked up a couple of young birds

 

[hotdogs]

alot more has gone on with these 2 as well.legally done nothing wrong but not good look .i think we need to be strong and agree with that article .they have brought our club down big time and have to be acountable or will continue.

 

[CeeEss]

Not even going to read it. Over the whole thing. Us turning up and having a crack last night brought me out of a mental funk leading up to the game all brought on by this bullshit. Just looking forward to our next game, hopefully there will be one lol.

You should read it, not a bad read about the character of Pay and the club moving forward. As positive an article as we can expect at the moment.

 

[Tassie Devil]

Dean Pay was a no nonsense players who was as tough as they come. Now the Canterbury Bulldogs coach must be tough on his players.
Paul Kent, The Daily Telegraph
Subscriber only
|
March 13, 2020 9:00pm

There was never any quit in him when he played and now that he is coaching Dean Pay sees no reason there ever should be a change.

All anybody needs to do to know anything about Pay is to go back to a rainy night in Newcastle when he was a young man with a little talent and he was playing for Country against City and the headlines heading into the game were all about others.

Pay went out that night and started creasing the City forwards. It was one of those uncomfortable nights for football when the rain came down and made the ground just wet enough to take the subtly out of play, meaning players had to run a little more square that night, which was a kind of music for Dean Pay.


Bulldogs coach Dean Pay was as tough as they came when he played. Now he must be tough on his players. Picture: AAP.
Bulldogs coach Dean Pay was as tough as they came when he played. Now he must be tough on his players. Picture: AAP.
He kept lining up the City forwards and kept hitting them up under the ribs and it soon became apparent the more tender they got the more they wanted no part of him, which didn’t really matter to Pay because he kept on hitting them anyway.

He gave NSW coach Phil Gould no choice but to pick him for the Blues.

And then he did it again, in the Origin series, where they talk a lot about character and what it shows of a man. He found the Queensland forwards early and made it kind of personal against them and by the end of the series they all knew who Dean Pay was as well.

Gould rewrote the narrative for Origin. He borrowed a quote from an American basketball coach, John Wooden, when he said State of Origin football was not character making, as they liked to say, but character revealing.

It was a template that has worked for the Blues ever since.



Pay came through that Origin series and, such was the character revealed, he gave Australian coach Bob Fulton also no choice but to pick him for the Kangaroo tour at the end of the season.

So what option does Pay have now when he takes over as head coach of a football club trying to fight its way out of the unfamiliar position of being easybeats and two young men do everything that goes again him as a man.

Forget about strict definitions of law, as some have tried to argue, that Corey Harawira-Naera and Jayden Okunbor did nothing wrong when they had sex with two schoolgirls because the girls were of legal age.

Everyone within a football club, within a good football club anyway, knows it was wrong.

And Pay, who knows that everything about the way back for Canterbury begins with character, knows it was wrong.

Much will happen this week at Canterbury.

It has already been said that Okunbor will be sacked but Harawira-Naera will just survive, which some suggested with a wink might be because he is the better of the two players. He is close to the Bulldogs’ best forward.

But Harawira-Naera is gone too. He will be sacked this week, along with Okunbor.

What remains beyond that is formalities.

The two players have until Tuesday to respond to show cause notices.

The Bulldogs and the NRL will then consider their response. Then there will be legal threats and argument. The club is hoping it can be finalised by Thursday’s game against North Queensland.

Bulldogs CEO Andrew Hill must back Dean Pay as the club deals with this scandal.
Bulldogs CEO Andrew Hill must back Dean Pay as the club deals with this scandal.
Chief executive Andrew Hill has then got to back Pay’s decision publicly.

And then the Bulldogs board, chaired by Lynne Anderson, must back Hill and Pay. The NRL has already indicated it will support the Bulldogs and neither player will be registered at another club.

This is a crucial time for Canterbury.

They can hardly afford to lose two quality players, in terms of talent. But if the Bulldogs are ever to get where they want to be then they must be sacked.

In that way they are lucky to have a man like Pay as head coach. Pay’s moral compass is strong. His character, revealed so many years ago, is tough and honest and committed.

Nowadays they call character culture.

Every club in the NRL claims to have good culture. Some clubs are always talking about it, which could suggest they are still looking for it.

Culture is the most overused and misunderstood word in sport.

The best it can be defined is that culture is simply the standards of behaviour you are willing to accept.

How then, can Canterbury get strong as a club if it is prepared to accept players seemingly using school visits as pick up joints?

It is a question Pay and his coaching staff will have to address at some point, and then sometime after the Bulldogs will have to ask as well.

What made the players think it was okay? They either didn’t have the smarts, or the strength of character, to knock back what was a bad decision.

In an odd way, though, it is not a bad thing right now for the club.

It merely shows the Bulldogs are still on the road to excellence. Pay knows that not every player at the club now will be there if he eventually coaches them to a premiership and two more have just been weeded out.

It is important the Bulldogs understand that as well.

You might have all the talent but true success, the kind of success that endures, begins with the right leaders finding the right people.

Poor characters simply can’t drive long term success.

The Bulldogs have revealed a little of their character this week.

The club could have ignored what happened and it would have never got out.

It has cost them more than $2 million in sponsorship and caused short term damage to its reputation.

But again, it is a long term positive for the club.

If Pay and Hill had ignored what happened, dismissing it as nothing but an inconvenient moment, the club would have slowly festered from the inside. The players would have a new standard they could now behave to.

How could the club be honest about its ambitions if it was prepared to settle on its standards?

The Bulldogs have benefited by having men of character in key roles.

Nobody saw Pay last week when he first learned of what happened.

He was so angry and so disappointed, so let down, he began to physically shake.

“It’s wrong,” he said. “As weak as piss.”

This, remember, for a coach under pressure.

To lift the Bulldogs from the bottom of the competition he needs all the talent he can assemble. As a coach early in his career, any failings could be career ending. He has much at stake.

But he is the father of three girls.

A man first.

Personally found that a very good read and valuable insight into the thinking of the Dogs atm and what's going to happen.

Question I ask all supporters is simple. If CHN wasn't such an important player, would you care so much if he was sacked? Probably not ... which I think is our problem and what the club is trying to change. From the outside it seems clear we're trying to create a defined culture within the club which is much bigger than an indivual player and the team's short-term success. No player is bigger than the club, no matter how good they are.

What we saw on Thursday was a unified team, fighting for each other. The fighting spirit was there. The commitment to each other in defence. An extremely positive attitude. Exactly what we want. Yes, the attacking performance was lacking quality but it seems the key to the culture we're trying to grow is commitment, desire, and trust in each other plus the club. Was shown in abundance in the game.

Those looking at this in the short-term I think most will say keep CHN. I'm one of them if I'm honest as even though it wasn't good what he did, at the same time I certainly don't think it was anywhere near as bad as Okunbor. As soon as it became evident that he had picked up this girl on Tinder and hadn't even been at the school then I was happy with a milder punishment.

The question really is though, what was said to the players before we went up there? At the start of the season? What was at the heart of our team talks? Imagine we spoke about the above values and characteristics and the need to live them rather than simply turn them on & off for the game. That way these values are more intergrained in the ethos of each individual player. The players HAD to know how important this trip was for the club. Pay MUST'VE outlined the expectations to all the players and how vital it was for them all to stay out of the headlines.

Then 2 players go against everything he's trying to build. CHN, who's apparently in the leaders' group, pretty much sticks his finger up at Pay and goes against his direct orders. The club's direct orders. CHN is putting himself above the team. If it were once, then OK. But it honestly seems to me that there's a history of this, and the events of Coffs being a last straw. Remember, he's supposed to be a leader setting the example here, isn't he?

Also, I don't think enough supporters are asking the affect this had on the other players. The others all followed orders, respected the club's wishes, showed belief in the coach. How would it look to them if they get off, even if they want them to. It's show a lack of spine, and fester into bigger issues in the future.

We should've be asking ourselves whether we're better off having CHN in the team, but whether the team is better off having him out of it. Is one player more important than the values of our club?

 

[Tassie Devil]

How am I being naive lol, you think I don't know that? if I was being naive I would be like everybody else acting so shocked that two football players picked up a couple of young birds

I don't think anyone is shocked about it personally.

As I've said countless number of times. Had CHN not brought her back to the hotel then I don't think there would've been an issue. The problem with Okunbor is his first contact was made at school. That's it.

 

[NPC83]

IF CHN is married with kids, I think he needs to go.

Come on bro he’s got a kid to his ex... I don’t know why people keep saying he’s married..

 

[Tassie Devil]

Come on bro he’s got a kid to his ex... I don’t know why people keep saying he’s married..

personally don't understand why it's even important? Married or not. Kids or not. How should that affect the club's decision?

We've got values as a club we need to stick to. Both of them when against that, in spite of being told repeatedly of what the expectations are/were. Their personal life means nothing to me.

 

[Howard Moon]

Come on bro he’s got a kid to his ex... I don’t know why people keep saying he’s married..

mate I asked the question earlier because it's a big concern for me as a supporter, and I assume many others. I'm not out there talking about it outside of these threads. It's cleared up now

 

[Noeasyday]

Never thought I'd say this, but to an extent Kent is right.
The hardest part of rugby league is turning up every week and defending your tryline, not letting the opposition get one past you.
If a teams defensive attitude and application is a sign of a team unified behind it's coach then from what we've seen the last 6 months is positive in a way.
On Thursday night our defensive systems were top notch. Blokes covering the inside ball, hitting hard and sticking, front rowers covering to the sideline, a sense of pack mentality.
Pay deserves credit for that and from memory, that's how he played as a player.
If Pay can attract some talent to the playing ranks and add a dominant half, a solid 9 and a couple of quality backs we become a contender.

 

[Tassie Devil]

Never thought I'd say this, but to an extent Kent is right.
The hardest part of rugby league is turning up every week and defending your tryline, not letting the opposition get one past you.
If a teams defensive attitude and application is a sign of a team unified behind it's coach then from what we've seen the last 6 months is positive in a way.
On Thursday night our defensive systems were top notch. Blokes covering the inside ball, hitting hard and sticking, front rowers covering to the sideline, a sense of pack mentality.
Pay deserves credit for that and from memory, that's how he played as a player.
If Pay can attract some talent to the playing ranks and add a dominant half, a solid 9 and a couple of quality backs we become a contender.

Good post this

 

[dekepefc]

well that's good then. I saw it mentioned on here a few times that he had a wife and kids is all. if Oko has a gf then I will be happy to see him go

What have you been cheated on mate? For fucks sake lose your job for breaking the rules yes, but you shouldn't lose your job because of a moral issue that can be more complicated than black/white.

 

[dekepefc]

Cheating is rampant in sport. Don't be so naive

Rampant in life in general. They just get more/ easier opportunities

 

[no1bulldog]

Don’t know if this has been posted else where



NRL must find a 'crime' to fit punishment for Dogs duo

Malcolm Knox
Sports columnist
March 14, 2020 — 12.01am
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Rugby league’s twin pin-ups of the week, Corey Harawira-Naera and Jayden Okunbor, did nothing illegal in Port Macquarie. And yet they are guilty, certainly, of something. The NRL’s job is to find an appropriate punishment, but also, much more trickily, to find a ‘crime against league’ that fits.

There was no actual criminal act because their sexual partners in Port were of an age that the law slides around. There is no suggestion the sexual contact was not consensual, and indeed, to cast the girls as passive victims is to deny them sexual agency. This does not make them victims or the footballers predators, or vice versa; it simply leaves them as four heedless young people who followed their appetites into a world of adult consequence.


The transgression for which the players have been stood aside is a code of conduct breach at the Bulldogs club, which prohibits players bringing guests to their hotel rooms. If you’ll recall, two Wallabies players fell into similar strife a couple of years ago, when they were dropped for breaching team protocol by having female visitors in their hotel room after a Test match. Even though one of the females was her host’s sister-in-law, and nothing more transgressive than a game of pinochle took place. More took place in Port, but if you are a player, your clear take-away from this code of conduct breach is that if you meet a girl and the pair of you want to have sex, you ought to do it in a car, a park or a phone booth, up a tree or in a bathroom … anywhere in fact, so long as it is not the pure sacristy of the team hotel.

If there is a sub-sub-transgression, it is the lingering bad odour of ‘schoolgirls’ being predated upon. But what happened was a little more convoluted. One of the girls met one of the players during a school visit, but she had to send him a picture to remind him. The other girl did not meet the players during the visit. Nevertheless, the image of school uniforms, and the mere word ‘schoolgirls’, are enough to set off a moral panic; however long the bow that is drawn, however far apart the dots that must be joined, to make that narrative.

Initially, I’d thought the players’ offence was against public health, and that by swapping saliva with members of the public, the two Bulldogs players were potentially endangering all Bulldogs, match officials, competitors and fans they encountered during the next 14 days, and the Dogs would now have to stage their campaign to avoid the wooden spoon before empty stadiums (in case you could tell the difference). But no, it wasn’t about health; this was the one story in the whole world that was not about COVID bloody 19.

Then the conversation turned to how Okunbor and Harawira-Naera brought the game of rugby league into disrepute. Jokes aside, rugby league thrives on disrepute like mushrooms thrive on cowpats. The comedy of disrepute extended to the restaurant chain Rashays (The Best Casual Restaurant & Cafe Near You – Get a Schnitty for $10 Today & Tomorrow ONLY!), which was about to sign a jersey sponsorship with the Bulldogs, but pulled out after the Port incident. In fear of being brought into disrepute, Rashays coupled its name indelibly with ‘Bulldogs’ and ‘Port Macquarie’ by making lengthy public statements about just how much disrepute it narrowly avoided.

And by the end of this performance, you could still get a schnitty for $10 yesterday and the day before. Port (which, along with Coffs Harbour, might have its own case for being brought into disrepute by the Bulldogs – where next, Taree?) will no doubt soon have a Rashays of its own. I’ve never seen a restaurant chain get so much publicity for not wanting to be associated with publicity.

As flamboyant as Rashays was in publicly distancing itself from the Bulldogs, nobody looked quite as much as if they could do with a free schnitty as poor old Dean Pay. There was the Bulldogs coach, alongside his chief executive Andrew Hill, in a press conference trying to evade the task of defending the indefensible or explain the inexplicable. Both looked as if they had seen the same ghost. These were hard-working servants of the game who had been made to look like fools.


It was while watching the fooled Pay and Hill, considering all this disrepute, that the penny finally dropped. The transgression that has been committed is that of making fools out of … everyone. The two players had made fools of Pay and Hill. They made fools of the NRL and its message of respect for women. They made fools of those members of the public who believe and accept the message that rugby league players routinely disrespect women. They made fools of the Women in League, and for that matter the Men in League.

There are many who never believe any of that PR in the first place, who have a cynical view of rugby league, a cynicism cloaked in amusement. This incident is so rugby league; it’s even more rugby league than actual games of rugby league. It speaks to a great big pantomime: here are the things that league says it believes in, here are the people league says it speaks for, but it’s all show. What is really happening in rugby league is dumb young men with narcissistic pride in their bodies and a sense of entitlement, whose current adventure in life is about any opportunity that comes their way in their brief moment of youth and celebrity. Everything else is hypocrisy.

This incident is not on the same continuum as the serious crimes involving violence, drugs and drink-driving for which league players have been convicted. Instead it belongs with the party-boy peccadillos, the stupid shit. These aren’t hanging offences, but in some ways they are the most corrosive acts a league player can commit, because they are saying that all the high-minded professions of morality, all the modernising of culture, all the charity work and championing of progressive causes, are really just an act for the cameras that league players are dragooned into performing, while what’s really happening, what’s really on their minds, is not much different from what was on their minds back in the dark ages.

These players are guilty of lifting a lid to reveal the real world of rugby league, a world that never caught up. Harawira-Naera and Okunbor have been caught making fools of too many people, inside and outside the game, to get away unpunished. Their actions have exposed a pantomime made of cardboard sets. In order to restore its own dignity, the game is now facing the task of inventing a ‘crime against league’ to fit the punishment.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/nr...-punishment-for-dogs-duo-20200312-p549m5.html

 

[Bad Billy]

If the information we've got is true, CHN shouldn't be fired. Whats more it may be illegal.
Breaking team rules, one time, (lets be honest that's all he has done) is hardly a sackable offence and i suspect if challenged, fair work Australia would see it the same way.
Are we going to fire the next player who breaks team rules? Say Josh Jackson gets back to the hotel after curfew? Gone too?
Firing someone without prior warning, would have to be for gross misconduct, and i just don't think this falls into that category.

 

[hackenbush]

These are two young men who made a mistake, alas dumb mistake. They should be punished, as they would have been aware of the club's standards. But how many of us have not made similar dumb mistakes or maybe worse. How many have lost their jobs & been vilified in the media as a consequence. Putting on a NRL jersey will not instantly instill wisdom on all players. Hopefully players will learn a lot from their mistakes, just like many of us. Will sacking the players make them better men? How would everyone react if they were your sons or brothers, would you kick them out of your house & disown them. .... How can you educate, guide young men into better people if they are not in the club. ( the family club)
Yes they deserve to be punished & the punishment should be real... being sacked I do not think so. Give them an opportunity to make amends to the club, the fans & themselves.

P.s. Greenberg must have been overjoyed to have a Scandal to deflect from the discussions of his possible termination.

 

[Scoooby]

Good read.!!

 

[MatstaDogg]

Don’t know if this has been posted else where



NRL must find a 'crime' to fit punishment for Dogs duo

Malcolm Knox
Sports columnist
March 14, 2020 — 12.01am
Share on Whatsapp

• Send via Email

Rugby league’s twin pin-ups of the week, Corey Harawira-Naera and Jayden Okunbor, did nothing illegal in Port Macquarie. And yet they are guilty, certainly, of something. The NRL’s job is to find an appropriate punishment, but also, much more trickily, to find a ‘crime against league’ that fits.

There was no actual criminal act because their sexual partners in Port were of an age that the law slides around. There is no suggestion the sexual contact was not consensual, and indeed, to cast the girls as passive victims is to deny them sexual agency. This does not make them victims or the footballers predators, or vice versa; it simply leaves them as four heedless young people who followed their appetites into a world of adult consequence.


The transgression for which the players have been stood aside is a code of conduct breach at the Bulldogs club, which prohibits players bringing guests to their hotel rooms. If you’ll recall, two Wallabies players fell into similar strife a couple of years ago, when they were dropped for breaching team protocol by having female visitors in their hotel room after a Test match. Even though one of the females was her host’s sister-in-law, and nothing more transgressive than a game of pinochle took place. More took place in Port, but if you are a player, your clear take-away from this code of conduct breach is that if you meet a girl and the pair of you want to have sex, you ought to do it in a car, a park or a phone booth, up a tree or in a bathroom … anywhere in fact, so long as it is not the pure sacristy of the team hotel.

If there is a sub-sub-transgression, it is the lingering bad odour of ‘schoolgirls’ being predated upon. But what happened was a little more convoluted. One of the girls met one of the players during a school visit, but she had to send him a picture to remind him. The other girl did not meet the players during the visit. Nevertheless, the image of school uniforms, and the mere word ‘schoolgirls’, are enough to set off a moral panic; however long the bow that is drawn, however far apart the dots that must be joined, to make that narrative.

Initially, I’d thought the players’ offence was against public health, and that by swapping saliva with members of the public, the two Bulldogs players were potentially endangering all Bulldogs, match officials, competitors and fans they encountered during the next 14 days, and the Dogs would now have to stage their campaign to avoid the wooden spoon before empty stadiums (in case you could tell the difference). But no, it wasn’t about health; this was the one story in the whole world that was not about COVID bloody 19.

Then the conversation turned to how Okunbor and Harawira-Naera brought the game of rugby league into disrepute. Jokes aside, rugby league thrives on disrepute like mushrooms thrive on cowpats. The comedy of disrepute extended to the restaurant chain Rashays (The Best Casual Restaurant & Cafe Near You – Get a Schnitty for $10 Today & Tomorrow ONLY!), which was about to sign a jersey sponsorship with the Bulldogs, but pulled out after the Port incident. In fear of being brought into disrepute, Rashays coupled its name indelibly with ‘Bulldogs’ and ‘Port Macquarie’ by making lengthy public statements about just how much disrepute it narrowly avoided.

And by the end of this performance, you could still get a schnitty for $10 yesterday and the day before. Port (which, along with Coffs Harbour, might have its own case for being brought into disrepute by the Bulldogs – where next, Taree?) will no doubt soon have a Rashays of its own. I’ve never seen a restaurant chain get so much publicity for not wanting to be associated with publicity.

As flamboyant as Rashays was in publicly distancing itself from the Bulldogs, nobody looked quite as much as if they could do with a free schnitty as poor old Dean Pay. There was the Bulldogs coach, alongside his chief executive Andrew Hill, in a press conference trying to evade the task of defending the indefensible or explain the inexplicable. Both looked as if they had seen the same ghost. These were hard-working servants of the game who had been made to look like fools.


It was while watching the fooled Pay and Hill, considering all this disrepute, that the penny finally dropped. The transgression that has been committed is that of making fools out of … everyone. The two players had made fools of Pay and Hill. They made fools of the NRL and its message of respect for women. They made fools of those members of the public who believe and accept the message that rugby league players routinely disrespect women. They made fools of the Women in League, and for that matter the Men in League.

There are many who never believe any of that PR in the first place, who have a cynical view of rugby league, a cynicism cloaked in amusement. This incident is so rugby league; it’s even more rugby league than actual games of rugby league. It speaks to a great big pantomime: here are the things that league says it believes in, here are the people league says it speaks for, but it’s all show. What is really happening in rugby league is dumb young men with narcissistic pride in their bodies and a sense of entitlement, whose current adventure in life is about any opportunity that comes their way in their brief moment of youth and celebrity. Everything else is hypocrisy.

This incident is not on the same continuum as the serious crimes involving violence, drugs and drink-driving for which league players have been convicted. Instead it belongs with the party-boy peccadillos, the stupid shit. These aren’t hanging offences, but in some ways they are the most corrosive acts a league player can commit, because they are saying that all the high-minded professions of morality, all the modernising of culture, all the charity work and championing of progressive causes, are really just an act for the cameras that league players are dragooned into performing, while what’s really happening, what’s really on their minds, is not much different from what was on their minds back in the dark ages.

These players are guilty of lifting a lid to reveal the real world of rugby league, a world that never caught up. Harawira-Naera and Okunbor have been caught making fools of too many people, inside and outside the game, to get away unpunished. Their actions have exposed a pantomime made of cardboard sets. In order to restore its own dignity, the game is now facing the task of inventing a ‘crime against league’ to fit the punishment.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/nr...-punishment-for-dogs-duo-20200312-p549m5.html

Good read and makes some great points.

 

[Chris Harding]

I don’t think CHN has a better chance of not getting sacked cause he is the better player.. my understanding is he met the girl off tinder and didn’t know she was from the school... I think he’ll get a decent suspension for breaking team protocol but if it is true he didn’t know she was a school girl... how harsh is it to sack him...

It goes beyond any mitigating circumstances, because the club has its reputation about to be trashed if these players are not sacked.
This is a positive article from Kent, and indicates the support we will receive from the media and the NRL if we act firmly, and release them.
Any other team that goes soft, or covers up for wayward players will be judged, using the Bulldogs as the template; and the NRL will be even harder on them if a scandal erupts, and they don't act.

It also demonstrates to the team that no-one is above the club rules. In the end, this may be what the club needs to build Bulldog spirit and character. A little pain now, might result in a lot of gain later.

 

[ash160]

These writers do realize that 90,000 condoms were issued to athletes during the Sydney Olympics...athletes like to have sex, everyone does, fuck knows how many were used last month at the Mardi-gras

CHN should only have a case of breaking a team protocol, in no way should he be sacked

Okunbor has a bigger issue of breaking team protocol and questionable dumb judgement hooking up with a school girl and should face harsher punishment.

let’s not forget that the team that beat us had a player who is currently charged with a sexual assault. Whatever punishment is dished up to our players, if that sexual assault charge stands his punishment should be far worse.

where’s the media and sponsor outrage for Parra

 

[Chris Harding]

not me mate, seems to be the NRL’s attitude.... bash women, assault cops etc is fine.... do something not illegal and get hammered

You were just comparing the trouble we are in, and the way the glamour clubs have been allowed to get away with far more serious, and illegal, offences. Think Lodge and the Broncos.

I reckon this incident is a turning point for the NRL, and we are the test case that all other clubs will be judged by. Reading what Kent has written, I reckon we are about to set the standards the NRL was being forced to adopt. By being ahead of the game, we might find we become the pin up club for the NRL and media.

It is a high price to pay, releasing two good players; but the cost of keeping them would be far higher.